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Free Swim : How is 'crating' a dog better than tying one outside?
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 Message 1 of 14 in Discussion 
From: Jag  (Original Message)Sent: 1/24/2006 11:41 AM
I'm curious because this has come up in discussions before.  Apparently, some people here believe that tying a dog outside <such as to a tree> is cruel.  Of course, I don't advocate tying dogs with 1-foot tie-outs, but the average tie-out is 10 feet, and that's what I'm talking about.  And of course, talking about outside dogs also means adequate housing, food and water.  Anything less IS cruel.
So here's the main question:  How can making a dog stay in a cage barely big enough for them to turn around in be better than having a dog tied outside, where they can use the bathroom freely and run around in the <hopefully> fresh air?  A crated dog can't go to the bathroom, unless it wants to lie in its own waste.  A crated dog can't exercise/run around, and a crated dog can't interact with anything outside -- or in other words, a crated dog only has one view all day long that doesn't change.  Making a dog hold its need to go to the bathroom for eight hours or more for a person to get home from work, and not letting the dog be a dog, which love to run and play, is cruel, imo. 
Certainly, there are people who have dog-sitters that come four times a day to let the dog out for some air and exercise, but for those who don't even come home in the middle of the day to let their dog out -- and feel that tying a dog in the backyard is mean -- please explain why crating is better.
<And consider the alternative of teaching your inside dog to go to the bathroom in a litterbox.  My sister has taught both of her dogs to do that and it works quite well -- without crating them.  Just watch it if you're starting a puppy in the practice, because even kittens have been known to eat the litter until they die -- so they must be monitored and fed well so that they won't.  Start with papers or puppy/kitten pads first.  Just fyi.>
Okay... if anyone answers, I expect this may be quite heated...  <puts on firefighter outfit>  GO. lol

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 Message 2 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamebreeze_tiogaSent: 1/24/2006 1:52 PM
Hi Jag!  How are you doing? 
I personally have never crated a dog that I have ever owned.  I guess I am fortunate enough that I live on a lot of property, and the dogs I've owned were ( for the most part ) not tied up either.  An example of when I did tie up:  If they were new, and still learning my commands, and they needed out and I had to do something at the time ( example: answer phone, cook, tend to my son for some reason ), then I would tie them up, and not feel guilty at all.  And like you said, most tie-outs are long.  One lady I work with, has hers tied up most of the day, on one of those long leashes thats connected to her clothes line, so she has lots of play area.  Now, another lady I work with, kept hers tied out 24/7.  They never let the dog in the house, it was constantly tied up.  That I don't agree with.  Why have the dog?
My neice is a pet-sitter, she never ties out any dog she sits.  She has purchased a small kennel for when she needs one, though.  Some of the dogs are crated by their owners.  She has them sleep in there at night.  The animals she sits are lucky, though.  She home-schools, so she's there almost all day, every day, to take them out and walk them.

 Message 3 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname_AmesSent: 1/24/2006 4:28 PM
I haven't had a dog in ummm...a really long years maybe?  Anywho, Bentley (Golden--indoor dog) was never fixed so any chance he got he would run down the block to visit his girlfriend.  We always knew where to find him and he would never go any further but needless to say we couldn't let him run around on his own.  (yes we could have fixed him and this would have helped his wandering tendencies).  Anywho...if we were outside we would tie him on a long rope--20 feet in some cases and let him have at the yard...providing shade and fresh water of course.  For bathroom breaks we would walk him out (on a leash) to his kennel--quite large.  He'd do his business and we'd bring him back in.  As he got older he would stay in the yard and follow us around and he would always go to his kennel to do his business.  I miss that old guy 
On another note...the apple tree in his kennel (now taken down) is  the only apple tree that has not died in our yard.

 Message 4 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname-jujub-Sent: 1/24/2006 4:45 PM
I've never crated a dog either. We tried with Kirby, but he wouldn't tolerate it. Supposedly if you start with puppies, the crate becomes like their den, and they feel at home in it. Since Kirby is well potty trained and can stay in his fenced yard with the doghouse on the covered patio when we're gone, it hasn't been an issue.
We did once have a dog we tied out, because our yard wasn't fenced. She was tied to one of those swivel stakes on a long lead, so she couldn't wrap her lead around and around anything. It was the best we could do at the time, but I'm glad we have a fenced yard now because it provides more protection to the dog.

 Message 5 of 14 in Discussion 
From: BatmanSent: 1/27/2006 5:13 PM
My dogs back home are crated. We've never had an issue. They are let out three times a day for walks and bathroom breaks. They've never used the restroom in their cages,unless they were sick to their stomach. These dogs are trained. They follow commands issued by my Mother and they never go unless they are outside. They are on a schedule, so they know that in the morning, afternoon, and evening, they will be let out to use the restroom.

There are several reasons why we crate our dogs...

Neighborhood. Although, it is a lot better now than when we first moved there, my old neighborhood wasn't always safe. My dogs are also pit bulls, which puts them in a higher radar than your average dog. We've had previous dogs stolen. One was poisoned. Our dogs have also been shot at with bb guns and had items thrown at them from kids looking to start something. By bringing them in the house, we alleviate many of the issues we would have to deal with. You can't just let dogs roam free in the city. People call the cops for that. Especially with leash laws. Although the house where my Mother lives is very big, the yard it sits on, isn't. There's not a lot of space for the dog to roam around and again, going back to the neighborhood and the little punks that start trouble,it's not an environment where I would want to leave the dogs by themselves. Now we've kept previous dogs outside in spacious kennels before, but as stated above, ran into problems. It also keeps them out of the cold. As some may know, Midwest winters can be brutal, no matter how much hay you stuff in a dog house.

There are a lot of antiques, wooden floors, priceless items in the house, and although they are trained, these dogs are very playful and could possibly knock things over. They mainly hang out in the kitchen with their owner. They are very happy and well taken care of. Moreso than some people I know. They get two meals a day, plus snacks.

I've never had an issue with crating. I prefer it. The dogs are not "in prison".

I don't see it as cruel. However, I can see how some people might.

 Message 6 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameZelfrieda1Sent: 1/27/2006 5:16 PM
Our dog sleeps in a dog crate at night - we started that as a way of house training her - worked great! She obviously has no problem with it cuz if we all settle down for the night and no one has put her in her crate - she'll come get us! And at times during the day she'll just go lie in there by choice - especially if we get into rearranging - she hates it when we change things!

 Message 7 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameSmigChickSent: 2/1/2006 9:01 PM
I have never and will never do either, so I can't say that I find either of them more or less "cruel".
I'm sorta old fashioned I guess. I think dogs should be free to wander in a fenced-in area (or a large house for that matter) as naked as jay-birds, lol.
(Hey, Jag!)

 Message 8 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLitaBonitaSent: 2/8/2006 7:08 PM
Having had a crap load (literally) of dogs in and out of my home through fostering my answer is:
If done properly crating is used for training and is not cruel. There are a lot of people that have dogs and they run free in the house and yard all day but are trained to sleep in their crate at night. It has to do with that whole master thing like showing the dog you are boss and not vice versa. Unfortuantely, a lot of people do not see it as cruel treatment when they put their dog(s) in crates and go off for 8 or more hours a day. That IS CRUEL. No interaction with people for that long, no exercise, just four little walls, not good for your dog(s). Take this little dog we had (a mini schnauzer) that was crated it's whole life. When received at the rescue it could only turn in circles and had to be trained to walk a straight line! Ishka, the foster we just had that was adopted a couple weeks back was kept in a crate in the garage for over 12 hours a day before we got her. The previous owners were clueless and told us she would be fine crated since they kept her in one 12 hours a day and they cried when they had to give her up. They seemed to really care about her yet had no idea the restrictions they were putting on their dog's life were affecting it. It was obvious when we got her. It took us a good hour to lure her out of the crate. She wanted nothing to do with people because she had no interaction with them previously. She finally came around after her lifestyle changed with us and is fabulous and will live the rest of her life without those four little walls surrounding her.
Tying dogs to trees with adequate tying (not rusty chains and shit), shelter, food and water for SHORT periods of time is fine but not for life! It's all about the owners and education. People don't think of it as cruel and when their dog wags it's tail and plays with them on their time (i.e. you come home from work, untie the dog play with it then tie it back up and go inside) they think the dog is happy so all is well. And FYI, a wagging tail does not always equal a happy dog.
If dog owners would train dogs to do what they want them to do they will! BUT consistency and dedication is key. Pets suffer when they are left alone for extended periods of time period. Even dogs that have free rein of the home with a doggy door to go in and out get lonely but at least they are restrained to an object. What if something was to happen while the owners were away? At least give the poor fella a chance to escape!
I could go on and on (shocker) but will stop now... ruff.

 Message 9 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameSmigChickSent: 2/8/2006 8:56 PM
Lita....have I told you lately that I love you?

 Message 10 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLitaBonitaSent: 2/8/2006 10:29 PM

 Message 11 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameSKYgir1Sent: 2/10/2006 5:22 AM
Lita - god bless ya.

 Message 12 of 14 in Discussion 
From: JagSent: 2/14/2006 12:34 PM
Ah... very educational y'all...  cool...  I stand corrected then.
Figures that y'all would be the ones that, if you crated, would take them out and walk them throughout the day. (batman)
<BIG HUG> breeze and Smig... hiya! 
Lita... just so you know... you've rubbed off on me a bit.  I've started bringing my girlie Sabrina to the office with me whenever possible.  Well, I brought her once and didn't today cos I wanted to get some writing done, but I did the last time I was here. lol
I totally plan to make the HGTV Dream House 2006 dog and cat friendly so that my sweeties can share it with me INSIDE, as well as outside, when I win it. 

 Message 13 of 14 in Discussion 
From: mizidolSent: 2/14/2006 7:52 PM
This is why we don't have a dog - these kinds of dilemas! We would love to get one, but I just feel it would be unfair to the animal because we don't have a fenced in backyard and we both travel for work a lot, etc. We already have two cats and they keep us quite busy, and they can at least fend for themselves for a couple of days if needed with plenty of food and water. With a dog comes great responsibility... maybe someday we'll get one but I don't think we are quite ready for it yet.

 Message 14 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLitaBonitaSent: 2/14/2006 8:15 PM
Aw Jag
Miz - it is too bad that most dog owners don't think like you do!

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