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DEBATE BOARD : Heaven
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 Message 1 of 30 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname123_pooh_92  (Original Message)Sent: 8/25/2008 3:11 AM
How will we really know we are in Heaven?


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 Message 16 of 30 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKiki40Sent: 8/26/2008 3:01 AM
No amount of study will give you a clue as to the Lord's return.
 

Reply
 Message 17 of 30 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameIchmoSent: 8/26/2008 4:28 AM
Shalom group
 
As to the hour or year or day no. But you can know the season and He said it should not take the believer by surprise.
 
You would be surprised at how much info is given to us on this subject in the fall feasts.
 
Shalom

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The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations  Message 18 of 30 in Discussion 
Sent: 8/26/2008 4:39 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.

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 Message 19 of 30 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/26/2008 4:47 AM
ingathering...the feast of booths..for it is the lords feast....Leviticus 23.
 
It is hard thet I do not have a car...I am trying to study...this thoughts that come up i guess Jesus is trying to correct...I know Sid roth...but the pastor who has mentored me in the past just got married too long ago another and is in another state...I will be getting wheels  at some point...Perhaps Jesus wants me to study....My memory is poor...May I print some of the info you post....

Reply
 Message 20 of 30 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKiki40Sent: 8/26/2008 5:44 AM
Believers won't be taken by surprise because they are connected to the movements of the Spirit, not because they are knowledgeable of Jewish feasts.

Our best clue outside of the Spirit is the nation of Israel. But even that is speculation at best. Innate in the heart of every new-born believer is the sense of the near return of the Lord. Paul believed He could come in his day. A God that can open the windows of heaven and make prophecy come to pass in a 24 hour period can surely come when He wants.

You're foolish to think that this is a "time sensitive" issue. It is not. This is a "number sensitive" issue. God's not waiting for a point in time. He's waiting for a full house.

Reply
 Message 21 of 30 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/26/2008 6:59 AM
I see what you are saying but there are spiritual significance to the feasts,  if one did a study....Jesus fulfills them.
 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days. And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God�?(Lev. 23:29-43)
 
The first four of the seven feasts occur during the springtime (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Weeks) and they all have already been fulfilled by Christ in the New Testament. The final three holidays (Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles) occur during the fall, all within a short fifteen-day period.
Passover (Leviticus 23:5) - Pointed to the Messiah as our Passover lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7) whose blood would be shed for our sins. Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for the Passover, at the same time that the lambs were being slaughtered for the Passover meal that evening.

 Unleavened Bread (Leviticus 23:6) - Pointed to the Messiah's sinless life (as leaven is a picture of sin in the Bible), making Him the perfect sacrifice for our sins. Jesus' body was in the grave during the first days of this feast, like a kernel of wheat planted and waiting to burst forth as the bread of life
 First Fruits (Leviticus 23:10) - Pointed to the Messiah's resurrection as the first fruits of the righteous. Jesus was resurrected on this very day, which is one of the reasons that Paul refers to him in I Corinthians 15:20 as the "first fruits from the dead."
 
 Weeks or Pentecost (Leviticus 23:16) �?Occurred fifty days after the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and pointed to the great harvest of souls and the gift of the Holy Spirit for both Jew and Gentile, who would be brought into the kingdom of God during the Church Age (see Acts 2). The Church was actually established on this day when God poured out His Holy Spirit and 3,000 Jews responded to Peter's great sermon and his first proclamation of the Gospel
 
Trumpets (Leviticus 23:24) �?The first of the fall feasts and many believe this day points to the Rapture of the Church when the Messiah Jesus will appear in the heavens as He comes for His bride, the Church. The Rapture is always associated in Scripture with the blowing of a loud trumpet (I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Corinthians 15:52).
Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:27) �?Many believe this prophetically points to the day of the Second Coming of Jesus when He will return to earth. That will be the Day of Atonement for the Jewish remnant when they "look upon Him whom they have pierced," repent of their sins, and receive Him as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10 and Romans 11:1-6, 25-36).

Tabernacles or Booths (Leviticus 23:34) �?Many believe that this feast day points to the Lord's promise that He will once again “tabernacle�?with His people when He returns to reign over all the world (Micah 4:1-7).


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 Message 22 of 30 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameIchmoSent: 8/26/2008 6:47 PM
Shalom group
 
"Believers won't be taken by surprise because they are connected to the movements of the Spirit, not because they are knowledgeable of Jewish feasts"
 
First mistake, GOD says these are His feasts.
 
"You're foolish to think that this is a "time sensitive" issue. It is not. This is a "number sensitive" issue. God's not waiting for a point in time. He's waiting for a full house."
 
Then I shall remain foolish!  Israel is GODS clock. His return is centered around what He has promised Israel He is going todo.
 
The movement of the Spirit will not lead you anywhere outside His word.
 
He's going to restore two houses back into one when He returns, but I doubt thats what you meant by waiting on a full house.
 
His return, wheather its this year or another thousand years from now will be directly tied to His feasts.
 
But since the punishment of the house of Judah was up in 1947, the punsihment of the house of Ephaim now either is up or will be shortly, I'd say we are getting pretty close.
 
Shalom

 

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 Message 23 of 30 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameIchmoSent: 8/26/2008 7:19 PM
Shalom group
 
Weeks or Pentecost (Leviticus 23:16) �?Occurred fifty days after the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and pointed to the great harvest of souls and the gift of the Holy Spirit for both Jew and Gentile,"
 
Actually its 50 days after the feast of unleavened bread is comepleted, and it is also the day on which He gave Moses the ten commandments.
 
"The Church was actually established on this day when God poured out His Holy Spirit and 3,000 Jews responded to Peter's great sermon and his first proclamation of the Gospel "
 
I use to say that myself, and all though it was a great day for the church, the church was there in the wilderness.
 

Acts,7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of in a flame of fire in a bush.

7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of came unto him,

7:32 Saying, I am the Elohim of thy fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, and the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

7:33 Then said to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

7:34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.

7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

7:36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall your Elohim raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

7:38 This is he, that was in the assembly  (church) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey,

I think the teaching that the church was born on that day is part of the replacement theology of separating us from Israel and the Jews.

Here are three sites that will help you immensely.

What ever teach I more than likely got from these.

http://www.hearoisrael.org/Home_Page.html

http://www.lionlamb.net/pub2004.htm

http://rinah-shalom.tripod.com/

18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and hath remembered her iniquities.

18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is Elohim who judgeth her.

18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Ever wonder why the church in the bible looks more like Judaism and the church of today looks more like Babylonian sun worship.

Shalom


Reply
 Message 24 of 30 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/26/2008 11:39 PM
Thank-you very much for the addresses...
Judas as well of all the apostles and followers were looking in a direction other than the one God had his son take...Same today Babylon is a spiritual condition in the church as well.  Sometimes in our Lives too.
if one were to study all the revivals that went on there i believe none of them were all to happy before hand...meaning out of the wilderness sprang forth fruit of revival.  Even with  Jesus...His ministry more or less occurred right after being in the wilderness...Peter as well...David ..Paul all....
I am not saying anything about pre, mid, or post, But is Jesus coming back when we are all in a state of bliss....how foolish to think that.
The heaven that I desire and went to was not the new heavens.  I cannot imagine what that will be like...only what is told to us in scripture.
 

Reply
 Message 25 of 30 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKiki40Sent: 8/27/2008 3:14 AM
Bro. Ichmo, when the Lord returns for the church, it will have nothing to do with the feasts. It will have to do with the fulness of the Gentiles.
 
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
 
He is not due to come with power and great glory in that day. He is due to come in the clouds as a thief.
 
As for Israel being God's clock, time was cut off for Israel when they rejected Messiah. An understanding of Daniel 9 clearly shows this gap period. God's clock for Israel will begin again when the church is raptured. From there, you absolutely will be able to know the time of the Lord's return. But, since I plan on being with Him when He returns with power and great glory, it is not incumbent upon me to know exactly when that will be. Whether it is tied to the feasts or not never has been a matter for the church. It is a matter for the remnant. The two are not the same.
 
I am not familiar with replacement theology. I don't know what it is, therefore I am not equipped to argue against it. I only know that the church has been grafted in because of Israel's unbelief. I am not among those who boast against the natural branches. But at the same time, I refuse to brought back into bondage to that which was not able to bring about the righteousness of God.
 

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 Message 26 of 30 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameIchmoSent: 8/28/2008 8:41 PM
Shalom group
 
Shalom Sister KiKi
 
Here is part of a study that gives us a glimpse into what the fullness of the gentiles means. I hope there is enough here to help you without posting the whole study.
 

Genesis 28 verse 3 finds Isaac blessing Jacob and prophesying that the promise that Yahweh gave Abraham and Isaac would now be bestowed upon Jacob and not Esau. We see that in verse 3 Isaac prays that Jacob's seed would be blessed and become a "kehelat goyim" or "assembly of peoples." For the first time in scripture we get a glimpse of Yahweh's plan for filling the earth with the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Somehow the Father will fill the earth with the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by putting together an assembly of peoples. Verse 4 confirms what Isaac is bestowing upon Jacob is none other than the blessing of Abraham.

It is absolutely crucial for us to understand that there are not many promises to Abraham. There are not some that are spiritual and some others that are physical. Rather there is one promise and that one promise contains two aspects of physical blessing. One is the seed who would bless the nations, that being Messiah Yahshua Himself, the other being a promise of physical reproduction and multiplicity that would inherit the Land. In Genesis 28 in the account of Jacob's ladder we find Yahweh telling Jacob that his seed will be spread out as the dust of the earth and will break forth to the four corners of the globe. In other words his offspring would find its home in the land of Canaan, but would somehow through Yahweh's divine plan break forth and find its way to the four corners of the earth. This promise is none other than the bestowing upon Jacob of the promise and blessing of Abraham. The Hebrew term used in Genesis 28 verse 14 is the term "parats" meaning to break forth. It literally means to jump out and spread quickly. This promise of physical multiplicity must come through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob therefore nullifying any claims by Islam and Ishmaelites or any other misguided Bible scholars�?claiming that this promise is fulfilled in adding the Jews and Muslims together. This cannot be since this promise must come through Isaac and Jacob not Ishmael and Esau. The Ishmaelite, Arab and Muslim peoples are the physical descendants of Abraham alone, not of the promised heirs Isaac and Jacob. They do not meet the standards set down by Yahweh when He stated that the promise of physical multiplicity would come through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The faith of Islam is not the faith of Abraham because in order to have the faith of Abraham one must believe it was Isaac not Ishmael who was the chosen seed!

We find Yahweh elaborating on this promise to Jacob in Genesis 35: verse 11 where He declares to Jacob that he would no longer be known as Jacob but as Israel. Israel means one who as a prince struggles with Yahweh and prevails. It is as Israel that Jacob will produce sperm that will lead to the establishment of a nation and a company of nations. The nation of course is destined to be Israel and the company of nations will be the "kehelat goyim" or the assembly of nations (Gentiles) that will proceed from his own body.

As we jump forward in time we find Israel the great patriarch dying in the land of Goshen in Egypt and he summons all his sons to his bedside as he is dying. He somehow finds enough strength and leans on his staff and begins to prophecy through the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) the events that will befall his sons in the last days. The Brit Chadasha (Renewed Covenant) refers to these deathbed prophecies of Israel as an act of worship. In Genesis 48:5 he adopts Joseph's children born in Egypt, Ephraim and Manasseh as his own. He is declaring his last will and testament right there in front of Joseph. He officially adopts these two boys so that Joseph his most beloved son can receive a double portion of blessing through both of his sons (verse 22). In verse 16 of Genesis 48 he calls these two grandchildren "Israel", since he not only adopts them but prophetically declares that the physical promise of physical multiplicity will come through them. After stating "let my name be called upon them," meaning they are Israel's children, he prays that they will become a multitude. The Hebrew term used here for multitude can be read as a "teeming multitude of fish". It is interesting to remember that it was none other than our Messiah Yahshua who declared that He would make us fishers of men. Could many of the men he was referring to be the "teeming multitude proceeding from Ephraim and Manasseh?

As Israel is about to pronounce the blessing he lays his right hand on Ephraim instead of Manasseh who was Joseph's firstborn. The right hand is symbolic of the blessing of the first born and should have rightfully fallen to Manasseh. When Joseph objects Israel tells him not to worry that he knows exactly what he is doing and that while Manasseh will become a great nation, Ephraim will be greater than him. In Genesis 48:19 we have one of the most fascinating and important prophecies in Scripture. In blessing Ephraim over and above his brother, Israel declares that the seed or zera of Ephraim will become the "melo ha goyim", or the "fullness of the Gentiles". In other words the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that was promised to one day literally fill the earth as the sand and dust of the earth and stars of heaven, will now come to pass in and through Ephraim. Ephraim will be the vehicle though which the great and precious single promise of physical multiplicity will literally come to pass. If the term “fullness of the Gentiles�?sounds familiar it should. It is a quotation from Romans 11:25 by Rav Shaul (Paul) as the method and means by which all Israel would be saved. The only other time this word �?melo �?is used in Tanach is in Psalm 24:1, where the psalmist declares that the earth is Yahweh's and the fullness thereof. In other words the earth is full of peoples,

Shalom


Reply
 Message 27 of 30 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/28/2008 10:34 PM
I think I just posted something similar yesterday .. No where is it?

Reply
 Message 28 of 30 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKiki40Sent: 8/29/2008 7:00 AM
Minor point: melo is used in more places than two in the Old Testament. It is used 37 times and is translated full, fulness, all that is therein, all, fill, handful, and multitude. In biblical usage, it can apply to mass, number, or time.
 
Greek is very precise, however. The word translated "fulness" is pleroma, and the context of Romans 11:25 determines that its usage is in reference to a completed number. It is used 17 times in the New Testament and is translated fulness, full, fulfilling, which is put in to fill up, and piece that filled up.
 
I'll have to examine your post more closely tomorrow for the other points I'd like to make. For tonight, suffice it to say that "fulness of the Gentiles" can only mean "completed number of Gentiles." The church is Gentile, despite the fact that Jews and Samaritans were the first to "be come in." To accept Christ is to reject any righteousness that could come by the Law. Only one testament can be in effect at a time. Therefore, a "Christian" [in belief system] cannot remain "Jewish"[in belief system] and vice-versa. There is no more Levitical priesthood; there is no more animal sacrifice; there is no more temple; there are no more feasts. That earthly pattern was taken from a heavenly reality which manifested itself in Jesus Christ. Therefore, to conclude our former discussion concerning "feasts," they are not applicable to the Gentile church and not valid for gauging the nearness of the Lord's return for the church. That is not to say that the study of the feasts are not valuable for understanding God's dealings with Israel.
 
I do believe that God will make one of two, and that we cannot be saved without Israel, and Israel cannot be saved without us. But it is clear from scripture that we are not going to be saved together. The church is going first. Then, the Lord will return again to His covenant with Israel and fulfill it as He has always been faithful to do. The church is not appointed unto wrath. Israel is. It is called "the time of Jacob's trouble." We are not of Jacob, and we are certainly not a replacement for the natural children of promise. We may consider ourselves "spiritual" or "inward" Jews, but that does not instantly make all the promises God made to Israel ours.
 
I'm handling more than one person in this post, Bro. Ichmo. I hope you understand that.
 

Reply
 Message 29 of 30 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKiki40Sent: 8/29/2008 4:50 PM
Another minor point: Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, not Ephraim.
 

Reply
 Message 30 of 30 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/29/2008 6:25 PM
yes Kiki you are absolutely correct yet ephriam, which the name means double fruitfullness, who forms the house of Joseph in which two tribes came forth.  The other sons of jacob were one tribe.  That will make actually 13 tribes but Levi  was excluded (Num. 1:32-34; Josh. 17:14, 17; 1 Chr. 7:20).

The boundaries of the portion of the land assigned to Ephraim are given in Josh. 16:1-10. It included most of what was afterwards called Samaria as distinguished from Judea and Galilee. It thus lay in the center of all traffic, from north to south, and from Jordan to the sea, and was about 55 miles long and 30 broad.

I gotta go...lunch..


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