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| | | From: joie (Original Message) | Sent: 5/23/2002 2:58 AM |
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| | | ~~~~~~~~~MY FIRST VISION~~~~~~~~~ There may have been some visions before this one; but nothing outstanding which I can remember as of now. As I have told before, I was raised in the Baptist Church. Here I was taught that visions, dreams, speaking in tongues, shouting in the Spirit, or any other type of manifestation of the spirit was of the devil. So, I had no desire to speak in tongues. I had swallowed down their lies. But, after many years of diligent study of the word, I began to see that I was not getting what I needed from God. I became very, very hungry for something real; something more than I was seeing here. I said to God, If you are all that this Word says you are, there has to be more to serving you than this. Shortly after that, I was sitting on the piano stool one Wednesday night. I was just disgusted as I looked around at that ‘dead�?congregation. Then, God spoke to me as clearly as you read this. He said to me, “I want you to leave this church and never go back�? I was very excited; for I knew it was God who spoke to me. I had no idea what He wanted me to do next. But I obeyed what He said to me. Well, in a short while I was again going back to the Pentecostal Church I had attended as a very small girl; before my Daddy made us start going to the Baptist Church. As I watched their joy; and the wonderful way the prayed and worshipped. I became so hungry for the power of God to be in my life, that I could hardly stand it. I sought God diligently every day. On night as the testimony service was going on, a lady was testifying about the glories of Heaven. I could not see anything in the Church except a line of light from her to me. This astonished me very much. After she finished testifying, I stood up to testify. As I began to talk, something came on me and I could not make my voice work. I tried and tried to say the words I meant to say; but they would not come out. I did not know what to make of this. I was too backward to even clap my hands as they did. That Baptist doctrine had completely subdued me into nothing as far as knowing how to worship. I became very nervous and uneasy about this; for never before in my life had I been unable to make my voice work. The people had become very excited; for they knew that the Spirit of God was dealing with me. But as for me, I had no idea what was going on. All I knew was that something was wrong; for I tried to make me words come out and they would not. Then I looked away at the far corner of the Church: there I saw a very clear vision of myself with my hands raised up to God; and I was speaking in TONGUES. This astonished me more than I can tell you. For I do not remember every having had a vision before. I was too backward to even clap; much less raise my arms up in the air this way. I certainly did not desire to speak in tongues; did not believe in it. I kept looking at myself in that vision. I looked very happy as the people in the Church did as they got into the Spirit. This was what I longed for; but I did not want to do what I saw myself doing. I was afraid of this. God spoke to me and told me to do what I saw myself doing ~~ raising my hands to Him. He said if I spoke another word, it would be THAT WAY. He was offering me the Holy Ghost now; He was offering me what I so much desired ~~~~~~ to feel His glorious power on me ~~~yet, I was afraid to raise my hands. I tried again to speak; for I felt embarrassed to just be standing here this way, not saying a word. Of course, the Church knew God was upon me; and they were rejoicing. They knew what was going on. Then, I just sat down; for I could not bring myself to raise my hands that way. He had let me know that if I spoke another word, it would be in TONGUES; which I did not even believe in~!!!!!!!!! I felt very, very down hearted at myself after I sat down; for I knew I had missed what He had offered me; missed it out of my backwardness; caused by Baptist raising. I then told God that if He would give me another chance, that I would do what He wanted me to do, IF IT KILLED ME. For, I felt that to do this would be almost that. Some how, I KNEW from this experience, that I would receive the Holy Ghost during the testimony service and not as is customary ~ after the preaching. I began telling everyone that I would receive the Holy Ghost during the testimony service. I was absolutely SURE of this. My husband asked me how I knew this ~~~~~~~ I told him I do not know how I know, I just know. Well, as you which have read my personal testimonies, know, that is just how it did happen. But that is another long testimony in itself; so I will close for now; and try to tell the other later. God bless you all ~~~~~~ all who are hungry for a real relationship with God ~~~~ not just a ‘Belief�?thing. Jo 
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Anne, I forgot to address the point of 'church'. I am not into any church. God has called me out of all of them. He told me to leave them. He has shown me that they are the whore in Revelation. it is just a carry-over of old Jerusalem. They are one and the same = against the true God. and the killer of his people. See Jesus names Jerusalem as the one who killed all the prophets and the saints of God. Then in Revelation, this is said of Babylon, so it proves they are one and the same. We know the 'churches' have murdered millions in their zeal to control everyone. You know i sometimes think this internet thing is a way of those of us who came out of that babylon system, to still reach people and teach them. but I see it is so full of error and fighting and mess, that I see it is just an extension of Babylon. But anyway, there will always be the wheat and tares growing together until He sends the angels and separates us forever. That will sure be a great day = no more false teachers to deceive folks. no more divisions and wars among us. But until then, we must carry on and try to teach the truth to as many as we can find. This is why I stress staying with the KJV. all others will change things and cause confusion. There must be a sure word from God to go by, and I fully believe that is the one for the English speaking peoples. Why would we need two different ones? that is only confusion. I know the anointing of God is upon that precious and beautiful word, called the King James Version. Well another good day to you. Jo |
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Hi Jo, I sincerely apologize for not getting back to you sooner and I can't really respond now.. I'm writing mostly to say thank you for that well-thought-out and ordered response. Thanks. It is very appreciated and I apologize for not saying that sooner.. There is more I'd like to say but I'm done with my work shift and even though my car pool (my sister actually) probably won't be here for a while I want to run down and meet her since if I delay she also goes home later.. Details from my real life. But seriously thanks for sharing that.. I've had a long weekend dealing with other things and put off coming here to check up on you. I'll respond when I've got more time and not ready to head out the door so I'm not feeling rushed. :) There is serious meat in what you say. Love in Christ, Anne Hugs! |
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Hi Jo! I am back, as promised, just finished eating dinner - with chop sticks, including the dessert, ice cream which is way more difficult than it sounds. We have fun here. :) I hope you don't mind sharing details from my life, LOL, but I always feel weird having deep discussions with people who I don't really know. But then I think how much does the fact that I have eaten ice cream with chop sticks say about me? ;-) Too much maybe. <<But everytime Jack rebukes me over this, he speaks against 'charismatic' , so I was telling him that this is not what I am speaking of. >> Ah ... understood. I feel sometimes like talking to different people I have to speak like a hundred different languages sometimes. And then if someone steps in the middle of it they might be like ... what's wrong with charismata? And you're probably like ... long story. I'll take your word on that.. Make God's truth and glory come out of whatever you guys have going on. <<This is why I stress staying with the KJV. all others will change things and cause confusion. There must be a sure word from God to go by, and I fully believe that is the one for the English speaking peoples.>> Well, I think we need to be careful where we place our trust. And you must be aware that language does shift over time. There are simply words in the KJV which don't mean the same thing today. As for whether the KJV is uniquely anointed by God at that I have to seriously depart. The Scriptures are an expression of God. Something He showed me in a vision, the vision by which I am a Christian today. =D I understand the need to have certainty and firm foundation. Just be careful what that certainty is. Really, your trust should be in God who invested the Scriptures as they were originally written by real people.. I understand if you think this eases confusion but the desire to ease confusion, to simplify things can also lead to great, grave evil.. So be careful. God has told me to read only one book and has never said I should be particular of the version, but when there are disagreements (which are generally minor between the reputable translations) to look to sound scholarship regarding the *original* texts in the *original* language and context to resolve those.. Otherwise we are in danger of placing English and in particular English of a particular time period at the head of all else.. Moving on, I thought this was so cool, I'm saving the best for last.. :) <<Now the visions which God gave me had nothing to do with what I had in my mind or wanted to see or willed to see. In fact when God gives me visions, i am not even thinking of seeing one or of what it is about.>> Maybe I should be more clear. I don't think we should go seeking visions.. Or rather ... we should be ready for them whether we ever see one. Ready for whatever God decides to give us, use us for. I really do deal with demons, serious actual evil powers who I'm not just making up.. Overall, this is a good point. It is definitely a serious issue that people want to control the world in that way. But still, okay, I don't actually see things because it's not with my eyes and ... the last one for me, the last one which was newsworthy was I woke up after this terrible nightmare in which I was a young girl who was shot through the hand basically by Satan, the enemy, which was bad enough. But then the next day there were all these new articles, I can remember one of them, still see it in my mind, "THIS IS HOW SHE CATCHES BULLETS." Basically, the articles where saying I had claimed to be beyond being hurt, invincible, a superhero, but I'd failed.. I wanted to go to the media and explain to them that I was sorry if I'd given this impression, but knew better. And before I could do it a friend stopped me and said they won't listen anyway and you know better. You tried your best to help people and my goodness you were SHOT in the HAND. Give yourself a break. You give glory to God in being willing to help people and getting hurt in the process doesn't make you a bad person. That's my job, by the way, my forever job, giving glory to God.. And I told my friend fine, you're right, it's not worth it to try to explain. They just want to smear the headlines.. But I didn't really believe my friend. I still felt like I'd failed, unless I could somehow explain to them that I'd never claimed to be untouchable I was dishonoring God by allowing dishonesty. And that was the end of the dream.. The next day a good friend e-mails me, asking for prayer for something that had happened in VA Tech, here in the U.S. (she is in Australia) and I immediately look into it because I'm like if they know about this in Australia it must be a big deal. So I read this article about a girl who was shot in the hand while holding the door closed and how in doing so she saved her boyfriend's life. And in my spirit, God was like, see? Do you blame her for being hurt? For not being able to save everyone? And I was like ... no. I have dreams and visions of other things, too. Mostly though it is more subtle, like if I approach say a new people group (I'm taking a long hard look at Mormonism, God willing) the words I say to someone in that venue will be repeated by someone who is perhaps influenced by demons(?) who has no idea of the first conversation to me in accusation.. That almost always happens (I've noticed the pattern) when I'm breaking new ground like that.. I'd say it's creepy but it's sort of funny actually. :) I really pray for anyone I catch doing that. And really the important thing is what we do with them. You know? Like when I say visualize Jesus Christ coming in power, don't we visualize things? Doesn't Paul say that we should keep our mind on higher things? Doesn't Jesus say that we should be looking out for Him? When this sort of visions relating to world events thing started happening I seriously freaked out. I wondered if I was supposed to do something about it. But now, it's just part of my life. I pray a bit harder, especially for any aspects of the situation, moral concerns the vision/dream/premonition brings up. Like another time, right before the Iraq war started, it wasn't a vision, it was just this feeling in me that the U.S. was about to do something which would make the rest of the world hate it and was it okay with me if they did it? If it was in fact necessary for God's plans for this nation? That wasn't a vision but it did happen. I even put a flag on my car that day because I felt in my spirit this was important, that I needed to express my standing behind the U.S. (in a sense anyway, long drawn out story) in a tangible way. Oh yes and these kinds of thing seriously freak out my friends. And then when I first became a Christian, the reason I'm a Christian is I was seeking God earnestly and He really did appear to me. That wasn't a vision either though. I don't think I had eyes. =D I became light I think, or all I remember is golden light and He was the light.. And He showed me the Bible, that was the first thing, like this ribbon throughout all time, and said that it was an expression of Himself through all time and through it I would be kept straight and sure in this world. To use it, (though I had not read it at that time) in the way Paul said, for instruction and correction. I even before I ever read those words by Paul used to think of it in that two-fold way, because that is what God said, really! To teach me about Him in this world and in order to correct me when I starting to veer off course. And then Jesus, who is the Son of God, the expression of God as a human being. Like God in a finite form but still entirely the same as God. And a few other things. That really happened.. Those are my two big doctrinal points though, the ones I run to when my back is to the wall and I want to make sure it's a DARN good wall. ;-) Bible is true. Jesus is the Son of God. Bam. Solid ground. :) God told me to my job is to bring glory to God, in this sort of pronouncement way. He warned me that on this world, that this world is sort of under enemy occupation and I was going to be lied to on every side and to simply hold on to the Bible, and Jesus Christ *as recorded in it* (since evidently there are other versions out there, although He didn't tell me that part, I've come to discover) who is a real person who really did all those things. In the Bible. Not necessarily in other stories. ;-) And by pretty much telling me those two, short, sweet things He pretty much gave me a firm foundation for my entire stay in enemy territory! Well that's *God*. Awesome huh? But even that I wouldn't call a vision exactly.. I don't think I had eyes.. I wasn't seeing with my human eyes. It's hard to explain.. And that is how I always see. I can even be in the real world and see things in that other place, sense things in ... there are no words! You know what I mean. :) But yes, I definitely believe in visions. LOL. It would be funny for me not to. Maybe sort of comforting but the newspaper or my boss isn't going to go away if I cease to "believe" in them, so neither will this particular way God uses of giving me information or nudging me.. It's just, again, like when I "met God" through His Holy Spirit. I *asked* about the Bible. I *asked* about Jesus. It is hard to draw lines between what the Holy Spirit does and what you do.. God wants our self to die but he wants us to live, as independent real thinking beings. I know, the language gets *really* sticky at this point, as to the ideas that language represents.. He *led* me to ask about the Bible, to ask about Jesus.. He *led* me to seek Him. All of that seeking His face would have been nothing if He had not answered.. I can do nothing without Him. But because of Him I am really me, a real honest, thinking person with my own mind. I am not going to use special New Age/Hindu meditation techniques to see visions and think it's silly to want them in themselves but ... I earnestly desire the greater gifts and am willing to take on the responsibility (hopefully no more than I can bear) that comes with them. For God to be able to use me for healing, for seeing things, for powerful prayers, for giving someone a hug when they are on the edge of breaking down (encouragement). Little miracles.. I like what this one pastor said that the greater gift is what is most needed at the time. And that's how it is.. So that was so on point for me, long story incredibly short, sorry trying to use real life examples.. I get what you're saying about not seeking visions in that (rather direct, short-cut sense.) But at the same time I do believe we should seek not visions but for God to move in miraculous, supernatural ways in and through us by being people He can trust to do so. I know He's always like that with me.. And that is a kind of preparation. That's what I'm driving at. Cuz otherwise if we try to draw the battle line on wanting to see things, well yes that's bad, but so is allowing demons to take control of people and give them visions which they use to go out and kill babies or whatever.. So it's not so much the wanting or not wanting that's the bad part.. It's what you do with it. It is Him and His righteousness.. But yes, that is also a problem. Miracle and sign-seekers. Clearly not good either. But it's not the whole problem. Does that make more sense? Sorry for the loooooong post.. But there was a lot of good stuff in what you said. I found myself wishing I had someone tell me that a few years ago. Cuz I really did freak out. Big time. And when I say don't try to see things that is sort of a hard-learned lesson. God had to take out the hammer and tongs for that one. :) It felt like. Of course if someone tells you something it's seldom the same as God teaching it to you, through the fire and the forge, so I dunno. It's just ... even after that's dealt with it seems like there's still more that's wrong with this picture. Oh yeah and because I've actually dealt with people and actual demons which will say but I am fully abandoned and dedicated to my cause which is wanting you dead (or whatever). If it is being abandoned that's good and simply allowing the spirits to wash over you, aren't I doing the right thing? <roll eyes> Love in Christ, Anne |
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<< You know i sometimes think this internet thing is a way of those of us who came out of that babylon system, to still reach people and teach them. but I see it is so full of error and fighting and mess, that I see it is just an extension of Babylon. But anyway, there will always be the wheat and tares growing together until He sends the angels and separates us forever.>> Best for last. I knew there was one more thing.. I agree. I pray a lot for the internet. It's one of those things I've taken somewhat of a personal interest in.. I love my real life (as in have met them face to face) friends a lot, but my best friend for one, well He's not even on earth right now physically (soon enough, God willing) and I've never met Him face to face.. But yeah, the internet has possibilities but it also reveals our souls. Given the chance to do and say anything what do we do? Porn. Stupid games. But I'd like to think ... that we can use it for that too.. I know what you mean. I was busy this weekend actually talking to another group about a spiritual warfare issue I'm having which after the response there I'm like ... maybe I'll just keep quiet on this for a while longer.. It's weird how it brought out everyone's little pet projects though. Mormon guy. Pro-polygamy-guy. Anti-polygamy guy. Just plain tired and wanting to enjoy the nice weather guy.. And all the things in our hearts.. One of my things is I want order, but I don't want it at the needless cost in lives to those who are confused. I'm here and I'm going to do my job while I'm here.. Pray for the internet with me.. I've met so many awesome people on here of so many faiths who so need Jesus/Yeshua.. Is that the name you had problems with by the way? There was no "J" sound back then. Not a big deal, but it is actually factually accurate that Jesus's name was actually pronounced (probably) Y'shua. In fact Jewish people will still pronounce it that way today, in Hebrew. Yeshua ha Massiach (Jesus the Anointed One.) Satan is short for ha satan, or *the* enemy. Ha means the.. Little bits of Hebrew trivia.. Might be useful if you ever play Jeopardy and you get Biblical Hebrew. :) Smack me at will.. But yeah that could have been JB. I don't recall the seventh-day part but he was very messianic Jewish like. Messianic Jews are generally Jewish people who realize Jesus is the Messiah. However, I tend to think of certain kinds (like JB, I'm pretty sure though I still pray for him) as being those Judaizers Paul spoke against and which is also in Revelation. "Those who claim to be Jews but are not." At the same time it may be useful to know. Or not. :) I don't think there is any moral significance to a consonant. =D Just as long as we can all agree to that and to respect the brother who feels in good conscience he must not eat meat (or whatever) Romans 14 so long as it is all done *to the glory of God*. Of that much I am sure.. And I am sure that you believe this about the KJV in good conscience. As long as you're not going to say ... the book of mormon or the Qu'ran and even then...we can talk. :) I even "do not look down on" you v. 3. In fact I think it is good that you believe things and stand firm on them, so long as you do not condemn me, who read the NIV, which I just quoted. ;-) And the NASB, actually I think the scholarship and readability is better there. Not those transliterations or The Book or The Message though. Or the Amplified.. [shudder] But NIV isn't too bad (if a tad fluffy at times - one and only son as opposed to only begotten - when begotten isn't a word which has changed meanings). NASB is better.. That's just me. I don't think it adds to confusion so long as its a faithful translation. I think it is best still if it is written on our hearts - and trust me doing that with a pen seriously hurts.. (Only kidding, I used a felt tip marker and it was opening the chest cavity that actually hurt.) I'm only kidding about that too.. Not with pen and ink and paper. But with our lives.. But the ink and paper is also needed to sort of remind our ever-deceitful hearts. ;-) As we all know or should be honest before God about.. But I honestly think maybe you are better. And I am honestly afraid to in any way harm your faith by saying you must read all those other Bibles. I get that.. I will pray about this. Problem of living with all these gosh darn human beings.. Can't live with 'em, love 'em too darn much to not try to find a way. ;-) God bless sis, Anne |
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Hi Anne, I do appreciate you posts. And I very glad you came back and 'talked' to me. I hope I can say things so you understand what I mean. So many people take it all wrong. My only desire or purpose of being here is, as you said, first to give glory to God and His kingdom. Next, my only goal is to try to feed the sheep of God, the truth He has so graciously given me. My calling from God is to feed his sheep. So I will try to address the things you spoke of. May not get to it all right now. But about the KJV. Now I am not saying this is it because of the wording or English. I fully believe that God is all powerful. I know that God did not just give his word to those Holy Men who at first wrote and then just go and forget it, take a back-seat and allow other men to just mangle his word and give us any old thing. See, if I could not believe that God gave me a pure word, a true Word, a word I can sink my eternal life into and stand on, then I would be DISBELIEVING IN GOD. that is how strong I see this. Take where you said you quoted the NIV. And I have read many other quotes from that man-made book. It does change the entire meaning of the word. so it cannot be of god. If it is, then the KJV is not. It is one or the other. And if it is the niv, where was a pure word long before that? You said that it calls Jesus God's one and ONLY son. See then, this does not fit the Word of God. Adam was a son of god. We are sons of God. Beloved now are we the sons of God. see? But the word BEGOTTEN has a spiritual meaning which has nothing to do with the physical body being conceived or born. God and His word are the same. They are not in opposition to each other. God is his word. His word is god. So we must have his pure word. God was with the men He raised up and anointed to translate His Word. He gave them the correct understanding. He gives me spiritual and correct understanding when he teaches me. God actually speaks to me, many times, and tells me secrets in the Word. it totally astonishes me many times, at the glory of the hidden secrets in His word, which carnal minded people totally miss. The revelation from the KJV is so marvelous, that I know it is the pure word of God. See, to not have the spiritual meaning of BEGOTTEN, is to miss the truth of Jesus Christ. and about the other name, Yeshua, I do not believe this is a true name of Jesus christ. I have tested it and found it false. Besides Jesus did not have a Hebrew name. Jesus had a New Testament name. I have a message in here explaining this. I fully believe that 'yeshua' is a name for Satan. Satan is trying to turn the masses away from truth. This is one of his tatics, just as denouncing the KJV is, just as saying we must study some 'original' language to get truth is. See, it is casting DOUBT on the truth of God's word. That is all it takes to damn souls, DOUBT. One of the biggest mistakes people make, in trying to learn the Word of God, is thinking it revolves around the Jewish people or their habits, or ways, or language or their feasts days, or their past habits, etc. It does not revolve around them. It revolves around Jesus Christ and his true people, the people of FAITH, = US. The Word of God does not need to know hebrew words, language, or greek words or greek language, to be understood. This is one of satan's slyest tricks. this is one of the main reasons people have no true understanding. They do not know how to study the Word. They think they must study commentaries, concordances, dictionsaries, and what they have been told is the orginal books, etc. It is just not true. The Word of God, the KJV, has all the answers right there in the pages of the Scripture. Scripture must interpret other Scripture. We must seek all the answers right from the pages of the Word of God, not some other book, or some other people's past way of life. Has not one thing to do with it. God speaks his secrets to me. He shows them to me in the Word. He leads me to find verses which explain other verses or questions. All Scriptural questions, have Scriptural answers right in the KJV. God did not go out of business and leave his word unattended. He is not like that. He is not helpless now. He is not out of business. He is just as much God now as he every was......else He never was. He never changes, for he was perfect to begin with. enough for now. p.s. btw.. I LOVE to hear about others, personally. I have always asked and wanted the people to give personal testimony. I enjoy it and feel it helps me get to know you. so tell me any and all that you wish to. I would love to hear it. JO |
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Hi Jo, You are very zealous and it is good to be zealous, provided that the cause is good. In this, you are really losing me sister, as to the KJV.. You say that it is okay if you don't speak English, that English-speaking brethren are no better than others, yet you say "The revelation from the KJV is so marvelous, that I know it is the pure word of God." Does this mean that every language has its own pure word and the KJV is the English language pure word? What are you saying there? Am I less than you because I do not believe this? I've never read the KJV and never felt led to either.. Also you say "I fully believe that 'yeshua' is a name for Satan. Satan is trying to turn the masses away from truth. This is one of his tatics, just as denouncing the KJV is, just as saying we must study some 'original' language to get truth is. See, it is casting DOUBT on the truth of God's word. That is all it takes to damn souls, DOUBT." Sister, I am not lying, not trying to cause trouble. Jesus probably was actually pronounced Yeshua or something close to it. His name was, we can be sure, not pronounced Jesus while He actually walked on earth. There is no J sound. That is a fact, hon. Another tactic of Satan, which I've seen often is to have all of us running around calling one another Satan, and saying you are evil! No, you! Satan ultimately wants us all dead and to destroy us. He is a murderer and a liar. But our war is not against flesh and blood. No, I am not saying you need to learn about that culture in order to be saved or to know God, but it may be useful to get at the contextual meanings.. If I can see anything be called the "pure word of God" in that sense, it would have to be the original texts. Can you respect *my* good conscience in that resolve? Or does that make me evil and on the enemy's side? Have faith in God. Have faith in *Him* enough to be able to respect those who do and watch how you define people out of believing in Him to believing in something else.. I do call Jesus Yeshua, honestly. In private. I believe that's how his name was actually pronounced. Does this mean I actually speak to Satan in doing that? Or how about Hebrew believers who call Jesus Yeshua because that's simply how it's pronounced? Are they speaking to Satan? I'll try to make time to look at that other post but I am going to pray about this. I really don't like to be contentious. It's just you have to understand if I understand you right you are basically telling me that a large group of people who I also love, who I am convinced know and love God every bit as much as you or I are evil. Simply because they speak Hebrew. Or whatever. Without pretention or pride. That is wrong, sister. If that is what you are saying. And that is also one of the enemy's tactics. In trying to get us to combat, say, Judaizers or those who say that Israel has some divine right to that land, or people who commit sexual immorality or whatever, it tries to get us to (unwittingly) want to kill or attack innocent people. That's Satan's MO. It wants us dead. And it is very clever about it. That's what I immediately think. And if it is in ignorance that is one thing and I will leave you alone then but if you honestly believe in your heart that speaking English and reading the KJV (which is necessary in order to read the KJV, and antiquated English at that) as opposed to some other version makes you better than *another believer who also believes in the Bible* that is a serious problem.. A serious, serious problem. God has had mercy, great mercy on us so that we might be able to read the Bible and hear the Gospel in our native tongue. It is not at all well for us if we do not extend this mercy to others, in particular to the Jewish people whose culture and heritage led to the holy seed from which we all benefit. If we say Yeshua means Satan(?) for example, which I am sure in ignorance means that you are saying any pure Hebrew-speaking believer is talking to Satan when they pronounce Jesus in their language. I am not lying about that. I have a friend who was raised Jewish and she calls Jesus Yeshua in Hebrew because there is now "J" sound in Hebrew. If she's talking to us - because she is bilingual she says Jesus, because she's also not snooty or anything. But if she didn't speak English she would only know to pronounce it Yeshua. Without pretension. Romans 11 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. |
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Anne, you are making the same mistake so many others make = that of taking what I say and twisting it out of all and any symbolance to what I actually said. that is how so much contention and malious gossip and slander starts. I try to help people and they take it as an insult. Now I have not said any of the stuff you claim I said. That is how so much false doctrine exists today. People take one statement, and thinking it is totally exculsive, twist it away from anything near its original meaning. If, for instance, I said to you, I am going to the river today. then you take this and say that I said no one else is entitled to go to the river. But see I did not even insinuate that. Now that is exactly how you are twising my words here. I wonder is everyone void of understanding>? I said to the English speaking people, I fully believe the KJV to be the pure word of God. I did not say one word about being superior to others because of this. I did not say one word about other languages. I said I do not know about them. I do not know what their true Bible is. I fully believe that our God is fully able to have watched over his word all through eternity, and has given us what He wants us to have. Now the Word of God proves that the Anne, you are making the same mistake so many others make = that of taking what I say and twisting it out of all and any symbolance to what I actually said. that is how so much contention and malious gossip and slander starts. I try to help people and they take it as an insult. Now I have not said any of the stuff you claim I said. That is how so much false doctrine exists today. People take one statement, and thinking it is totally exculsive, twist it away from anything near its original meaning. If, for instance, I said to you, I am going to the river today. then you take this and say that I said no one else is intitled to go to the river. But see I did not even insinuate that. Now that is exactly how you are twising my words here. I wonder is everyone void of understanding>? I said to the English speaking people, I fully believe the KJV to be the pure word of God. I did not say one word about being superior to others because of this. I did not say one word about other languages. I said I do not know about them. I do not know what their true Bible is. I fully believe that our God is fully able to have watched over his word all through eternity, and has given us what He wants us to have. Now the Word of God proves that the the true Christians are the Jews. It is not the natural folks whom the world calls jews. Now you claim that the Hebrews pronounced Jesus as yeshuar. How do you know that? think about this. It is simply because so many folks on the internet claim this. I dare say you have absolutely no personal knowledge of this any more than I do. Do you know Hebrew? I doubt it. Do the people who are telling you this know Hebrew? I doubt that also. So you think no -J - makes all the difference. Then why do they and you call Joel, Joel? Or do you? do you say yoel? Do you call Joseph, Joseph? Or do you say yoseph? Is john really yohn? etc. See what I am coming from? why is it only Jesus they are messing with? Jesus was not given a Hebrew name. He was given a New Testament name. This is very important. But all I see all you want is to combat me. I do not see you desire to hear these truths. You see, Anne, the Word of God is eternal. It was not originally in Hebrew! There is NO DIFFERENCE in the Jews or Isaelites and anyone else. If you studied the KJV you would know this. Jesus took of the twain, (Jews and Gentiles) and made one NEW MAN = the Christians. Now there is no difference. No, my understanding on truth is NOT dependant upon know a thing about anyone's past habits, culture, language or anything else of that nature. The Word itself teaches me the Word. Now the teachers in the Word of God rebuked false teachings, false teachers, and all bad stuff for the sake of enlightening the true Saints of God. We are to do the same today. I have not said one word about anyone being superior to anyone else. Seems to me you and others, who are deceived into thinking that knowing past jews and their habits is of some special glory, is the ones who do that. Do you wish to learn? or to study together without mud slinging? If so I will continue. but if all you want is to twist my words, and try to make me seem monstrous, then forget it. I do not have time to contiue with people who only want to change everything I say and make evil of it. Jo |
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Jo, As for the Y sound yes the people who tell me that do speak Hebrew. As I said, a good friend of mine who was raised Jewish does so when speaking Hebrew. I'm not sure who you think I am finding this out from and why you consider it unreputable. If you tell me what would be a reputable source I'd be glad to go to that. If you don't believe me and that is the point of contention then ask some Hebrew-speaking people. Now I am sorry if I misread what you said. I didn't mean to say that you considered yourself better than others. In fact my intention, what I am driving at is whether that is how you feel. If it is not how you feel then it should not bother you to be corrected, by a Jewish person (or sound scholarship), or whatever you feel would be a reputable source on that fact. But no, my intention is not to say that you consider yourself better. My intention was to say that *if* you do then that is a problem. And it will sort of manifest in whether you are willing to hear the truth about this or whether you are going to say well all presently living Hebrew people (we could, I suppose question them all) and all scholarship is *wrong*. I would call that being exceedingly stubborn and clinging without cause to an idea which you alone hold. And, really, Jo, I'm not trying to cause problems, not making this up, but there was no "J" sound around. There are other languages without a "J" sound too, or where various sounds are not pronounced, or where sounds (the rolling "r" in Spanish for example) we don't use *are*. And what on earth does the pronunciation of a word have to do with your faith in the God who created us all? ... I mostly came on here to apologize if you took this as an attack on you, since I know I sounded rather harsh and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Again, if you are simply ignorant as to Hebrew pronunciation of words then research it yourself. You probably won't take my word for it. :) And probably shouldn't. In whatever way seems good to you, I suppose.. Oh and yes, John is Yohn and Judah is Yudah. There are some other words which are like that. I do actually know a bit about Hebrew, not a lot, but enough to be passable.. I couldn't converse in it or anything.. I'm not really sure what to present to you in order to convey that though. I could tell you the books I've read. :) If that would help. Hebrew also doesn't start words with consonants. Instead there is the Aleph. I know this from various books on learning biblical Hebrew, reputable sources of other kinds. It's simply a fact. Elohim for example should rightly be 'Elohim. The aleph and ayin are both guttural sounds which we cannot generally pronounce in modern English speech. That is simply a fact. (Also aleph and ayin tend to be regional - much like we have accents.) Again you can research any of this, if you are interested. Etc. etc. I'm sure this is all very useful to you. But my point is why are you allowing yourself to say Yeshua means Satan? To say you'd rather not use Yeshua because you think it is pretentious is one thing but to say people who do use it are evil? Aren't you judging others by the same standard that you say is wrong? Failing to listen to them explain that their language simply doesn't have those sounds? You follow me? I am not calling you evil hon. I am questioning the grounds on which you seem to be calling others evil by praying to Satan.. Which would, I presume, be considered evil. And in this case you should know (and yes I do know people who speak Hebrew and no I'm not just making this up) that would be Hebrew-speaking people at large. And I am doing all of this in the hopes that you can simply be a better warrior for Him, to His glory. In love.. I'd almost rather do this in private e-mail [email protected] so as to properly take you to the side and correct you in this matter. But the internet doesn't always provide well for that.. Love in Christ, Anne |
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Anne, you and others simply cannot understand? I have no need for what any Hebrew (?) says \or how they pronounce any words! My faith is in God, the God who created heaven and earth and gave me His Pure Word and the Holy Ghost anointing to teach me with and from and about His word. the truth of God's word is NOT dependant upon anything other than the Word itself. and God gave it to me just as he wants me to know it. The hebrew or jewish people were never the chosen people of God. Now I know the simple reading of Scripture leads folks to think that. but the truth is that only the people of FAITH, have always been his people. without FAITH it has ALWAYS been IMPOSSIBLE to please him. His word declares all the way through that those Jewish or Isaelites people never pleased him, were indeed worshippers of idols. They were not of faith. Only a few ever were. There has always been a small remnant of FAITH people from Eve down. I am the best warrier or minister of God that I can be NOW, because I am what God has made me to be and taught me to know. I have a very wonderful and personal relationship with my God and need not to be brought on the way by someone who does not have the faith in his word to start with. I mean you nor anyone else any harm nor am I saying this as a proud person. I am saying it in FAITH. My faith is not weak. nor does it depend upon what some person who claims to know Hebrews says about things. God is my God. He knows my language just as well as all the rest of them, and he does not need any hewbrew speaking person to interpret for him. Can you possibly understand this? Your faith is resting in what someone tells you is a correct way of saying certain words. I AM ENGLISH SPEAKING, AND I SPEAK THE WORDS ENGLISH AND LOVE IT. It is not one bit offensive to God. His word, in the KJV, is from Heaven and I need no other. and yes, I am SOLID in my faith and will not be moved by the gainsayers. if that disallusions you, sorry. But I am solid. John is John. I do not need yohn. Jesus is Jesus. I do not need or want any 'yeshuar'. God did not tell me to pray in the name of yeshyar or to try to heal in this name or to be baptzied in this name. and I will not. I tested that name just to prove to myself that what I knew was true. And of course I do not expect you to trust my test, or my Spirit-leading, but I DO AND THAT IS ALL I NEED. I can say, thank you , Jesus, Praise You Jesus, and his presence is always there in connection with this. I tried to say, thank you, Yeshuar or praise you, Yeshuar, . I could not. His presence rebuked me. Make of what ever suits you. But I will not be led around by the nose by the 'hebrew worshippers'. Sorry if this offends you. It is not meant to. But I can assure you, all of this 'jewish or hebrewish' worship is NOT OF GOD. Jo |
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First, it is Yeshua, not Yeshuar.. I'm not sure where you got that from. Second of all, I will try to be as plain as I can. Do you believe that anyone who refers to Jesus as Yeshua is in fact referring to Satan? Or are you saying that people who are too stuck to this or that way of pronouncing it are being evil or wrong? (That I would agree with, that this is wrong.) Do you understand the distinction I'm making? I'm not sure how to be more plain. Are you so convinced it must be pronounced Jesus, precisely, that anyone who pronounces it any other way is automatically evil for doing so? Or is that certain Judaizers coming along have caused you to associate this with a bad idea? And hon, it's not just me. In fact I'm so sure of this that I'm like seriously if you doubt me talk to some Jewish people who speak Hebrew. There is a yodh but no J. There's not even a consonant for that. In fact if you wanted someone from a country without a J sound to pronounce it that way you are demanding of them exactly what you are unwilling to do yourself which is to learn a completely different way of pronouncing words. Does that make sense? If you don't want to find out then don't find out. But if you refuse to educate yourself on this then you are in no position to judge people who earnestly love God who do in fact refer to him in a language with no J sound. Simply in order to defend the English language. Because you have no idea what they are or aren't thinking or where they do or do not come from or why they call Jesus Yeshua as opposed to Jesus. You have to be honest that you have no idea why someone might in good conscience do so, or whether it is in good conscience or not. If you don't want to use Yeshua don't. But don't presume to judge those who do if you're not going to research it even. Don't throw pearls to swine. Don't try to pull sawdust out of someone's eyes when you have a plank in yours. Consider who you are talking to: a fellow human being created in the image of God. With love in Christ, Anne |
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PS - This is so off-topic at this point. Where is the topic about the name Yeshua? I'd like to see your research on why it isn't proper.. so as to save time and stay on topic.. I'm curious in particular as to your backing for Yeshua meaning Satan. I'll go over there so we can maybe keep this in one place and I'm interested in hearing other POV's on this if possible. This is a very strange teaching to me.. Do you have actual backing for Yeshua meaning Satan? Or for not it being the correct Hebrew pronunciation, or that the J sound has ever been used in Hebrew? Cuz if so that is the first of I've heard of such a thing but I'd be interested if there is any scholarship to that end. Thanks Jo, Anne |
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Scholarship? Who needs it. We only need to be led of the Spirit. Guess those of you who think the Jews have a hold on the truth, know not one thing about being led of the Spirit. I am telling you one more time. I need not Hebrew to know the Word of God or to have the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, for I already have it. I received it exactly as they did at Pentecost. and if you have not, that is what you need to concern yourself with. For without it, you are none of his. Without Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, you are none of his. Now that is what you need to study and come to. That is the only true plan of salvation in God's Word. There is a board here with some back history on this subject. It is not written by me. It is something another member here found and published. I do not care where it came from or what others think about this. The Word of God does NOT give that as a name of the Saviour. It is not one time in Scripture and that is all I need. You best realize that those Hebrews, as think they are, if they are the first ones, are the very ones who rejected Jesus, hated him, had him crucified, hated the early Christians, had them killed, and nothing they believed was truth. So what do I need from them? Nothing. If any of them get to Christ, they must come in the very same way I did = through the name of Jesus Christ. My language uses J and that is all I need. God did not tell me to call him that other word, and I am not going to,. why should english speaking people change their language to get to Jesus or to say his name correctly? foolishness to say the least. If they of another language know him by something else, that is up to them. It is not my thing. whatever their language calls him, that is their language. it is not mine. It is not in the Word of God. So you are putting your trust in something other than the word of God. You are putting the words of carnal men above the Written Scriptures. It that is how you feel safe, go ahead. but not me. I go by what the Written Scriptures say to me. It is MY soul and I must obey what God gives ME. and His spirit does not bear witness with that other name. And why worry about who spells it right? There are so many variations of it, that no one can keep up with it. I really do not care how you spell it. I do not like the name, and I do not believe in it and I am not ever going to accept it. Just the very fact that so many uphold it and the Jews, falsely so called, might uphold it, is one reason to doubt it. When did they ever get anything right? My Spirit shows me that it is not the right name of Jesus, and I certainly trust my spirit above someone else's. I must follow what god has led me to, not what he leads someone else to , for I know not if they are truly led of his Spirit. I believe His Spirit will always say the same thing. Now most of the people whom I have heard upholding this false name, say that Jesus is the name of an idol god. is that what you believe and accept? It certainly is not what I believe. Of course there is an idol named Jesus, but it is not the true Jesus. It is the one who has the birthday parties each december. that is the false jesus. now his name may be that yesshe thinggie. |
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Hm...Do you not like the Jewish people hon? Do you wish them ill?
This is funny, because I just came from talking about how I don't think they have a divine right to that land, because like all people, well I love all people.. But just because I don't believe all of that interpretation of the Bible is true doesn't mean I wish them ill or think they're terrible people who I innately mistrust or that Hamas should be allowed to nuke Jerusalem (Yerusalaama). If anything I have more mercy on them because they are real human beings in the middle of all these struggles. But they must abide by His righteous standard or nothing.
But I'm sensing, maybe I'm wrong, some serious dislike of the Jewish people.
It's funny, but this is like walking a narrow road. It is walking a narrow road actually, Jo.
You can't let yourself hate anyone in that sense. Believe they are wrong, sure. But to demand that they be able to pronounce the J sound..
My name is Anne because my Japanese grandparents can't pronounce Ann, and can only say Annie. They need that sound at the end.
There are cultures where they can't pronounce the "J" sound, where it simply comes out as a "Y" sound and vice versa because those two sounds are similar. "J" is pronounced like a "Y" but you have to catch your tongue near the front of the palate which is something you were taught how to do as a child through experience. I mean ... come on. On all sides, how silly are we going to let ourselves get?
In order to overcome whatever people have done or said to you in the past are you going to condemn those people?
Either way, I will pray for you.. I am praying for you.. And about this. I pray a lot for the silly things we allow to divide us and I'm trying to figure out ... what it is you are saying. It sounds incredibly divisive and counter-productive to me to say the way someone pronounces Jesus means they're evil as long as we mean the same person. Seriously.
Love in Christ,
Anne |
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Hm...Do you not like the Jewish people hon? Do you wish them ill?
This is funny, because I just came from talking about how I don't think they have a divine right to that land, because like all people, well I love all people.. But just because I don't believe all of that interpretation of the Bible is true doesn't mean I wish them ill or think they're terrible people who I innately mistrust or that Hamas should be allowed to nuke Jerusalem (Yerusalaama). If anything I have more mercy on them because they are real human beings in the middle of all these struggles. But they must abide by His righteous standard or nothing. |
Anne, stop making up things which I have not said, or I will not talk with you any more. Now if you can copy and paste here, where I said I do not like the Jewish people, or wish them ill, then I will hush. Until you can do that, stop making up lies. I do not like it when people say things I have not said, accusing me of things I am not guilty of. I am only saying what the word of God said. Do you not like what god said? Do you call God a lie.? God said the jews are the ones who murdered Jesus and the saints. I can show that to you, when I have time. I am not against anyone. But I am telling you, there is no difference in any peoples. Can you understand those words? And stay with what I said? Jesus brought us all into one new man. All outside this are sinners and hell bound. now that means all people on earth. there is no difference. the promised land Is the glorified body. those who dote on this natural earth. and natural folks, called jews are missing god entirely.! Do you understand? |
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Anne, for the last time, I DO NOT CARE HOW ANYONE ELSE PRONOUNCES THEIR WORDS......I SPEAK ENGLISH,,,AND I WILL NOT CHANGE IT. THEY CAN SAY WHAT THEY WANT TO SAY. WHO CARES. i DID NOT BRING UP THIS JUNK..YOU DID. I do not believe that word, yeshur, is in God's Word, for it was not translated into our English. So I believe it is a false name. a J has nothing to do with this. so forget it. I will not abide with people saying that the name 'Jesus' is an idol god. you think what you want to. I believe the name Jesus and I will stay with that name. I do not give a flip what other people say for j. I say jo. my name is jo and I want to be called jo. I do not want to be called yo. |
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