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From: joie (Original Message)

Sent: 9/14/2005 6:29 PM

~ Rapture, true or false? ~ By: Jo Smith

What so ever is highly esteemed among men, is an abomination to God. Lk.16:15.

One of the most highly esteemed things among men today is that ‘rapture�?myth, another error caused by not comparing Scripture with Scripture. No one Scripture stands along to be interpreted. It must be explained by another Scripture.

Matt.24:27-31 read all these verses, I will not write it all to save space. v29-Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (the 6th seal).

v30-And THEN shall appear the sigh of the son of man in heaven: and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the SON OF MAN coming in the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. These ‘clouds�?are the same ‘clouds�?mentioned in 1Thes. 4.

v31-And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now, this seems to be what people refer to as the ‘rapture�? But, notice it plainly said this does not happen until AFTER the great tribulation.

1Cor. 15:49-56 Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP : FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

He said when the last trumpet (the 7th) sounds, the dead would be raised to incorruption. Then, sometime later, (doesn’t say how much later, just ‘and we shall be changed�?. When? At the seventh trumpet! Take the time to read all the trumpets. See if this fits the rapture theory? Certainly not! According to the false teaching, the church is taken off this earth and carried up (somewhere??) long before this 7th trumpet sounds. A lot of stuff takes place before that trumpet sounds. I know Revelation is not in chronological order, but I certainly believe when God gives events like this a number order, that he counts as we do. If he says there are 7 trumpets, it stands to reason that 1-6 would happen before 7.

1Thes.4:13-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD; and the DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST. THEN we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: AND SO SHALL WE ever BE WITH THE Lord.

Now, once again the coming of the Lord and the resurrection is said to be at the time of that trumpet. He said the same thing in 1Cor.15. That the resurrection is at the last trump. Also, in both places, he shows that the dead in Christ rise before any changing or catching up of any saints. In Cor. he uses the word changed; in Thes. he says caught up with them. It means the same thing, The ‘change�?is the being caught up. It merely means being caught up into immortality. They are raised immortal. Then we are changed into immortal. That is what the catching up means. It does NOT mean carrying people off up into some other world.

The ‘clouds�?means that great crowd of raised saints. Cloud means a great multitude. Look it up, Cloud has more than one meaning just as the word ‘one�?does. This is what throws people, not understanding which meaning is meant in a verse. We tend to hang to one meaning and forget all the others. The ‘air�?is right here where we are. The air represents Satan’s kingdom. He is called the ‘prince �?of the power of the ‘air�? Jesus was told , by God , in the Psm. to rule in the MIDST of thine enemies. That is what is meant here. Paul said this is the Word of the Lord. So it has to be true. He said after we meet him in the ‘air�?so shall we ever be with the Lord; so, if you go sailing off into space to meet him, you would have to stay there from then on.

Rev.20:1-6 v3 He cast Satan into the bottomless pit, and shut him up and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled; and after that he must be loosed a little season.

v4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIM IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS.

v5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now, this plainly says that those in the first resurrection included those who had been beheaded and killed for not taking the mark of the beast and his image. They had not worshipped him. So, they had to have been here when that happened. So, according to the scripture in 1Thes. the dead are raised before any one is changed. So this proves it did not happen until after the beast has run his course.

Rev.11:15-18 The seventh trumpet sounds here. v15-The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

v18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the TIME OF THE DEAD, THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Now this shows what the other scriptures in this study said; that the seventh trumpet brings the resurrection of the saints and the time of the nations becoming the kingdom of Christ and the time to reward the saints.

I really don’t see how it could need to be any plainer than that. I don’t see why I would have to say any of my own words to show you the truth of all this. It is too plain, in view of all these scriptures that there is no ‘rapture�? (carrying people off into the sky, before any real trouble hits or any other time). There is just no Scripture for such a teaching. Only a misunderstanding of ‘WORDS�?

I pray this will enlighten the minds of some of God’s people. If so, it will be worth the effort put into bringing you this message.

*****************************************************

From: joie

Sent: 9/15/2005 4:56 PM

John 14:2--In my Father's HOUSE are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Now, where did Jesus go, in order to prepare us a 'mansion'? He went to calvary; he went into hell; he went into death; that is where he went in order that we might obtain this Heavenly 'mansion'.

but what is that mansion? Why are there many of them there?

Please allow me to show you what my HEAVENLY MANSION if:

11Cor. 5: 1--For we know that if our earthly HOUSE of this TABERNACLE were dissolved, we have a building of God, an HOUSE not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

v2--For in this (human body)--we groan, earnestly desiring to be CLOTHED UPON WITH OUR HOUSE which is from heaven:

v3--If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

v4--For we that are in THIS TABERNACLE (human body)- do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

v5--Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

v6--Therefore we are always confident, knowing that whilst we are at home in the BODY , we are absent from the Lord.

1Cor. 15:35--But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what BODY do they come?

v38--But God giveth it a BODY as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own BODY.

v40--There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

v42--So also is the resurrectin of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

v43--It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weaakness; it is raised in power:

v44---It is sown a NATURAL BODY; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL BODY, AND THERE IS A SPIRITUAL BODY.

v49--And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

People, this thing of seeking or desiring a natural, fancy building of materials, is so carnal it is not connected to God or the Scriptures. To love the world and the things of the world is to be void of the love of the Father.

Why would a celestial BODY need a frame 'house'? with what? Kitchens? for what? with bedrooms? for what? with a living room? for what? with bathrooms?? for what?

The Word of God is Spiritual. The carnal mind cannot receive the things of God; for to him it is foolishness.

If you desire a worldy type 'mansion' you are strictly carnal and void of understanding of Spiritual matters. There is no such thing in Heaven. Our mansion is our glorified BODY.

Here is another good message that will help some of you understand about our mansions

Wanna

From:

Isaiah·

Sent: 11/17/2002 7:55 PM

Acts- 1:4- And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

Acts-1:8- But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

Acts-1:9- And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts-1:11- Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

Rev-1:7- Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Now to show you these clouds . First I need to show you the meaning of the word cloud. It means more than you think it does.

The meaning of the word cloud- a visible mass of condensed water or ice crystals in the sky, it also means a crowd; a swarm.

As was stated above about the cloud of witnesses.

Heb.-12:1-Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [ so we see from this that the cloud represents a crowd of people, or a swarm of people.] Now the question who are these people and where did they come from? To get the answer let’s go to-

Mat.-27:52- And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

027:053 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. [ see it said they went in the holy city which is why I underlined Jerusalem at the beginning of this. It said those which slept arose. Now let’s go to

1 Thess.-4:14-17- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [ see same thing as Mat. Is saying in the above when he said they slept]

004:015 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[ see the two or three witnesses.]

004:016 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

004:017 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [see we will be caught up in the clouds or that crowed of people to forever more to be with the Lord.]

1 Thes.3:13- To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. [Same thing as Rev.1:7 is saying- Behold, he cometh with clouds;

To me this proves that those clouds that received Jesus up in the air were those old testament saints that came out of the graves and they are going to be as Acts 1:9 and Acts 1:11 states-

1:9- And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight

1:11- Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

I hope that maybe this has opened some understanding about these clouds that received Jesus up.

May the Lord Bless AMEN.

From: joie

Sent: 9/15/2005 5:05 PM

I suppose the rapture message above is just TOO long for most of you to study it out and see the truth of it. So I will try taking one step at a time and explain this.

This is just too important and too clearly laid out in the Word for so many thousands to be so mixed up about this. But it just goes to show the 'power' of enough people screaming a thing. No matter how it is taught in the Word, if enough churches start proclaiming a thing, the most of people will latch onto their distorted words and believe the LIE.

Get this: ALL OF THE WORD OF GOD IS A SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE. IT IS NOT UNDERSTOOD AS ENGLISH. UNLESS YOU LET THE WORD EXPLAIN ALL THE SYMBOLS YOU WILL FOREVER BE BELIEVING FALSE STUFF.

For instance - one simple one which you already KNEW: we are his sheep the sheep of his pasture.

Now if you did not already know that, you could assume that Jesus' people are 4-legged animals called SHEEP, right?

Our spiritual 'feeding' place is called his PASTURE, right?

He said his word was CORN right? He said his word was SEED right? seed sown in a field, right? right!

He spoke of nations as trees, rivers, mountains, etc. He spoke of his word as thunder, hail, rain, etc. See? Get the picture?

Then why all of a sudden CLOUD has to mean drops of moisture in the atmosphere? Air is going up into the atmosphere as airplanes do? Why?

Look up the word, clouds. It is not just a symbol - it litterally means A GREAT CROWD OF PEOPLE. wow! Now we are getting somewhere.

Satan is the prince of the power of the AIR? right? yes. We breathe AIR right here in this room, right?

Think on this a while. See you later with lesson # 2.

From: joie

Sent: 5/6/2003 9:52 PM

Lolady says some Christians don't believe:

2. That the church will be taken away but have to experience the wrath of God referred to as the tribulation

The church has always been experience the tribulation. The tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. Tribulation is what Satan's people do against God's people. Study the Word.

John 16: 33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Jesus' own words -- in the WORLD ye shall have tribulation. Not from God! From the World!

Matt. 13: 21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Again Jesus telling us that tribulation or persecutation come for the Word's sake; not from God. from the world.

Matt. 24: 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here Jesus tells us that he will not come with his angels and that great, or last, 7th trumpet until AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

The resurrection of the saints takes place at this 7th trumpet. Else Paul sure lied to us in the Word.

Acts 14: 22. Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Here Paul told the Christians that they must through MUCH TRIBULATION enter into the Kingdom of God. How else you gonna get there?

11Cor. 1: 3. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4. Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
5. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

Here Paul spoke of all their (our) tribulation.

1Thes. 3: 3. That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
4. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Again Paul told the we should suffer tribulation.(indeed are appointed to this)

and there are many more -- So how say some that the church must not suffer any tribulation? See what a falsehood this is? How about reading the Foxes' book of M.) If that group of people did not go through great tribulation, I don't know what on earth it could be)

The Wrath of the Lamb and of God is the Day of the Lord; not tribulation.

No, Saints (true Saints) will not suffer the Wrath of God; we will be pouring it out. Psm. 149.

I wish to say to those of you who already realize that the Catholic Church is an evil system, and that they brought the evil idol celebrations into the 'christian' church and disguised them by calling them something else........such as, they changed the Saturnalia (sungod's birthday, Dec. 25, and called it Jesus' birthday, Christmas)

... but did you not know that the Catholic Church also

originated

the doctrine of 'RAPTURE'? to cover up the idea that pope would be anti-christ?

and that catholic church

originated

the false teaching of a

trinity?

because they already worshipped the idol trinity god?

It is time for any true believers to cast off all these ideas of man, and REALLY study what the Word of God is REALLY SAYING.

In love an hope of waking up the sleeping virgins!

From:

Tweety134

Sent: 8/4/2006 7:01 PM

Freeborn,

I believe in the Rapture. I study the end times alot. I have just started posting on another about the tribulation. The tribulation, the Rapture and the second advent

are all separate events. Since I am studying the end times. Would you allow me to post what I have typed up so far? I will be more than happy to discuss it with you.

I know that many people do not believe in the Rapture. I know that this word does not appear in any scriptural references. But I would be glad for you to read it. And we can discuss it. I am on Coffeman's list. Why did I join his list? Because he does not know the truth. If you would look on Bible Reading Study Groups pages you will see that he battled me alot when I posted from my Bible. Coffeman says that Dake does not know truth. But everything that he has said, I showed him the truth out of my Dakes and he could not refute it. He said it was wrong, but gave no scriptural references to dispute what I had posted. What really got me hot was the 3 days and 3 nights. Steven was in the mist of that battle and I did my best to help him out. It just looked like Coffeman was battling to make Steven see it his way. But God said something else. When I would post the notes on the scriptural references that he gave regarding the 3 days and 3 nights issue. He said that he was discussing how the Jewish people reckon one day. A day is a day and a night is a night. Jesus said three days and three nights in the grave. Just that 3 days and 3 nights. End of discussion. I must have done something right because he made me asst-manager of his list. And here I will invite you and anybody else here that want to be a member of Seeking the truth to come and be a member. I know that you will not come because of what was done to you on that group in the past. And I don't doubt you for that. I like you Freeborn. And I think you can teach alot of people the truth. That is why I keep posting. I will not stop showing nobody the truth. I will read all of what you wrote on the Rapture and post some things. God Bless you Freeborn. Tweety

Dear Tweety,

Of course you may post your messages here. That is what I want you to do. I like you very much also. You have a sweet and kind spirit.

There was a time when I also believed in the rapture teaching. But that was just listening to the 'already made-up' doctrines of man.

When God began teaching me himself, from the Scriptures, I saw that absolutely NOTHING I had been taught by any church, preacher, or teacher had been true. They have it ALL wrong, for they are strictly carnal minded. They interpret the Scripture from a purely natural mind.

Man is not our teacher--- God is.

I hope you will post here and discuss with me as long as you will.

I am very familar with Coffeman. He has a very ugly and hateful spirit. He knows no truth, and wants no truth,.

Yes, I have seen the threads where you and Stephen battled him on the three days and nights. I do appreciate both of you.

and I saw that he made you an assistant manager there. You will do good, until you cross him too much. then he will fight you like a wild tiger.

I do battle also. God called me to battle. I am in the army of the Lord. I do not sit on the side lines. I am out there on the front lines of battle. But I do not wish to fight you, for I see you are on the right side.

Stay there. Allow God to show you HIS truth. If I do not prove everything I say with the only proof there is ---- the Written Word of God (KJV) then you battle me. show me.

Study. Dakes is not your teacher. God is. I will not have a Scripture, in which some earthly man had the nerve to insert his own words into it to try and persuade men after 'his' thoughts.

I once had a Scofield bible. (when I was young and did not know any better) but I reached a point where I could not stand trying to read it. He had so much of his words on each page, till it was hard to find what was Scripture and what was Scofield. I finally burned that mess and would never have another one.

Scofield is largely responsible for spreading this lying teaching called the rapture.

Stay with me and study with me and let God lead you.

Love ye,

Reply

Recommend

From:

Tweety134

Sent: 8/4/2006 9:28 PM

Dear Freeborn,

Thank you so much for your kind words. That is what is wrong with many people today. They listen to people that tell them what is in the Bible and not read it for themselves. My pastor tells us things. And he gives scriptural references to back it up and he tells us to read it for ourselves. Which I always do, because I love to read alot. When I get home from work the first thing I do is sit down and read more of the word. I always have my Bible open sitting next to my computer. As I posted the first part of Tribulation Not Worldwide. I think I read somehing before where it said that people will not know that Jesus has come back to this earth. Dake gave scriptural references for that one too. I think I was reading about the Rapture. I just thank God that I found him when I did. I have been battled all my life. I got so tired of fighting.

People know that I am kind and they try to take advantage of me. But God will protect me. People use to make me mad just to see me act a fool. I got tired. I tried God, and he told me to keep my mouth shut when the Devil tempts me. So when people say things that make me mad-I don't act the fool anymore. I read my Bible and pray to God. I see by keeping my mouth shut and studying HIS word has made the Devils in my life go away. And for once I can say I am at peace. Thank You Lord! My son is at that age where he is rebellious. He is letting the Devil lie to him. I tell him the Devil is going to lead you to HELL. He laughs at me, and says I don't know what I am talking about. Yes Freeborn. My son is now battling me. I love him so much. But I pray that he will see the light, and know that God will always be there for him when he is ready to accept CHRIST. He is the only way I tell him. I told him the Devil will lie and mislead you. He does not see that right now. And as I sit here, I wait for him to come home. He hangs with bad people that want to do others harm. Remember Freeborn where in the scriptures it said about what would happen to the person that waits for innocent blood? I told my son that. And Freeborn rememeber the scriptrue where it says that the child that disobeys his mother and father their days upon the earth will be shortened? I made him read that scripture. I told him he would not live long running with Devils and disobeying me. There are so many Devils out there in the street. I just have faith in GOD that he will keep my child safe in those streets that he loves so much. I am sorry for pouring out my troubles to you Freeborn. I am gonna read some more. Tweety

Dear Tweety,

I do thank you for confiding in us. I feel as if I already 'know' you. I feel a tenderness toward you. My heart goes out so much to this generation of youth, for most of them have no guidance at all into the things of God.

Television and all such evil media to day has led them into such evil and vile minds, till it will be hard to get them to God.

But do not give up. We must try to reach them. You are doing good thing to show him the consequences of disobeying parents and God.

I will pray for him and you. Please also pray for me. I was reading your message about the tribulation as you were doing this one.

I am going to take that a bit at a time and try to show you what the Word of God really says about this subject. Pray for me also here. I have been working on a long message about the seven heads of the beast. But since I had to go back to work this year, I have not had much time to apply to it and to study for it.

I hope to get it ready to post soon, for in this message it will be explained the main reason the entire church world has gone astray with these things.

I am fixing to write a short message on what causes the spiritual 'house' to fall. I hope it will help all who want truth.

I do so much appreciate you. Let me admonish you a bit here. Do not allow any human person to be your word of authority. Let only the word of God show you.

Please.....stay with me as I go into your message on the tribulation. Please. It will not be what you now believe, but I will show you where Dake and others went astray on this.

Love you,

Catholics are not the only ones [christians] that are a evil system, christians are just the most obvious of religions to prove that Satan and his imps will not stand up to righteousness !

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