MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
PME_Lives_onContains "mature" content, but not necessarily adult.[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Welcome To PMELO  
  Thank You to our Veterans  
  MSN CoC  
  Site Rules  
  General  
  Message Boards  
  Chit Chat  
  ☺Jokes & Games  
  ☼Philosophy  
  ♪Poets Corner�?/A>  
  Faith-Religion  
  Formal Debate  
  Attn Management  
  Venting  
  Sports Page  
  The Garden Shed  
  Election polls  
  Pictures  
  Member's Links  
  Guest Book  
    
  
  
  Tools  
 
The Garden Shed : Repost - What is "Organic"
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
 Message 1 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameRedneck_Dave  (Original Message)Sent: 12/16/2007 3:23 AM

Consumer Alert!

What is Organic?

The term "organic" is often often misused by used by retailers to sell their synthetic pesticides, services, cereal crops, fruits and vegetables or products for sale. The lawn care industry sometimes considers the use of 2,4-d  “organic lawn care�? Others think of organic meaning plants grown in soil. In this article I hope to clarify its use

The chemist "organic" means any material containing a carbon molecule. This includes petroleum products (motor oils, plastics and gasoline).

The gardener refers to organic as not using synthetic pesticides (including synthetic weed killers (such as 2,4-d) insecticides and fungicides. (Synthetic means the product has been altered by going through a chemical process). They also use organic based fertilizers made from manures or plant material.

The term "Certified Organic" means something quite different. Certified Organic growers and producers DO NOT use synthetic chemicals or GMO (Genetically Modified Organisms) in their daily practices. For instance the do not use of treated lumber (which uses a synthetic arsenic compound), bleach or 2,4-d. They also make use of Dolomite Lime. (Dolomite Lime is mined and ground up rock). Manures are used as soil amenders. Pest control is often done with predatory insects, dogs (to chase crows) and geese to eat insects. Organic based fertilizers are also used. All of these techniques are proven to build the soil and be environmentally friendly.

Certified organic farms raising animals make use of "higher animal welfare standards" For example chickens and cattle are not kept in tiny pens and are in some cases allowed outside as they like. Farm workers are also treated better than what we often see in Central America and many eastern European countries.

The depletion of organic matter & soil life in farming soils and contamination of our aquifers and atmosphere are a real problem for our "conventional" farms. Certified organic techniques offer solutions to many of these problems. 

Canadian, American and European Certified Organic Producers are federally regulated as well as audited yearly. If they are found to be in violation of the legislation and their society's bylaws they are not allowed to sell their products as "certified organic:

I should note: Conventional farmers are beginning to use organic farming methods more often. The results are far fewer pesticides are being used, less groundwater pollution and less soil erosion. Some even refuse to plant GMO crops. There is much room for improvement although I do give high praise to these progressive producers and growers.

Organic and Certified Organic are very different things. I hope this clarifies some of the confusion.

One final note: IPM (Integrated Pest Management) is a common farming technique using the least toxic agent to control pests and only when necessary. It includes the use of traditional chemical fertilizers and insecticides although (usually) at a lower rate. Some use "IPM" as a sales term although their lawn care/farming practices have not changed in 40 years. There is no certification for IPM nor is it considered to be "certified organic".

Dave Dz. Horticulturist
Environmentally Friendly Lawn & Garden Maintenance & Installation, Landscape Design, Integrated Pest Management (IPM), Organic Horticulture



First  Previous  2-7 of 7  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameRedneck_DaveSent: 12/16/2007 3:23 AM
DDuct2 Sent: 12/11/2007 8:46 PM
And here I was thinking it simply meant grown in a pile of S%!T

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 3 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameslslady10</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 8:53 PM
Would that include chicken crap and fish innards?  banana peels and egg shells/bone meal? 

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 4 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameRedneck_Dave</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 8:59 PM
Yes, chicken crap, fish innards, banana peels, egg shells and bone meal are all useful in "organic farming/gardening" (as long as they have not been synthetically altered).
 
I throw a banana peel (or the entire banana if I have it) in the hole before I plant tomatoes. This is because bananas are high in potassium and it is very slow moving within the soil. Being this close to the tomatoe's roots it will be able to make use of this nutrient sooner than bone meal.
 
I also make use of bone meal to help the (new) plant's root growth. However, it is very slow moving in the soil and the plant won't be able to make use of it for about six months

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 5 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameslslady10</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 9:07 PM
I use banana peels and bone meal when I'm fertilizing the roses. Chopped up peels , bone meal with organic compost after uncovering the base from heavy mulch in the spring.
Dried fish emulsion for tomatoes. Used to use cut up carp back in kansas but it attracts too many animals no matter how deep you bury it. So I switched over to the pellets.

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 6 of 30 in Discussion 
From: DDuct2 Sent: 12/11/2007 9:12 PM
Didn't the native Americans teach us how to do this long ago by putting a fish in the ground when planting corn?

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 7 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameslslady10</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 9:20 PM
I don't know about corn,  but it works great for tomatoes!

Reply
 Message 3 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameRedneck_DaveSent: 12/16/2007 3:24 AM
<NOBR>MSN NicknameRedneck_Dave</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 9:22 PM
Those are all very good fertilizers/ soil amendments
 
I like Scotts brand products as they are of a corn base and I have very good results (STAY AWAY from weed n feed products btw). When fertilizing an established lawn I like to use their "Turn Builder with Iron" (ya gotta make sure it has iron). It is really nice stuff to work and it lasts about 6 weeks. The "Winter Care" is also a nice product and your lawn will be the first on the block to green up. All of the lawns I have taken care of were weed free and I didn't use any dangerous chemicals.
 
I like to use Scotts "Starter Fertilizer" in flower gardens. Awesome results!
 
 
All of these pics were taken on one of the multi-million dollar homes in a gated community just south of Calgary (Canada). Some of the local problems gardeners have is very high winds combined with bitter cold in the winter (the hedging cedars and pansies are treated as annuals). There are also wildlife which are known to dig and chew on anything they can find (rabbits, deer, Richardson Ground Squirrels and Red Foxes).
 
 
Hedging cedar (Thuja occidentalis pyrmidalis 'Brandon) and pansies!
 
Hedging cedar, pansies, marigolds and of course a juniper
 
Same area as above
 
 
Liatris sp (Gayfeather) 
 
These pansies were really happy, until the first frost hit them early September
 
 
Sorry for the poor photography folks!

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 9 of 30 in Discussion 
From: DDuct2 Sent: 12/11/2007 9:24 PM
We've got so many deer, rabbits and groundhogs around here it's hard to grow anything without 24/7 survellience! And I live in a neighborhood in the suburbs within shouting distance of an airport!

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 10 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameRedneck_Dave</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 9:31 PM
You can try using bloodmeal when planting (I have heard of mixed results). There are also "sensor activated" sprinklers which go off when there are animals nearby........ call your local garden centre! If they don't have em you can always get em online
 
 

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 11 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameslslady10</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 9:33 PM
had pansies and snapdragons blooming though Oct. I've tried Liatris but the soil and site conditions just won't allow it, no matter what I've tried. Lupine and Phlox work much better.  

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 12 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameslslady10</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 9:35 PM
Great pics, by the way. Your plan?

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 13 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameRedneck_Dave</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 9:38 PM
What type of soil do you have?

I am sorry I don't understand what you mean by "your plan?"

Reply
 Message 4 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameRedneck_DaveSent: 12/16/2007 3:24 AM
<NOBR>MSN Nickname-Scoundrel-</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 9:50 PM
Organic is when you meet one of them there Frenchy woman and you take her to your bedroom and she goes to take off her cloths and has more hair under her arms then you do.  Or a bush the size of Bushs head.  Then when you look down the hairs on her legs are longer then yours.  Of course about this time the smell from the putunda down unda hits you like a green brick wall.  Its about this time she says oui misure, I am organic and au natural.  Its about this time you lose your organic jam on rye sandwich.  Or at least I did. 

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 15 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameslslady10</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 9:53 PM
Did you design the plantings for that house, sorry, landscape plan.
 
Soil? LOL! I call it clay! and rocks! I've brought in over two tons of soil just for the
for flower beds! and that's not even the pots!
 
 

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 16 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameRedneck_Dave</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 10:14 PM
I didn't do a design for that house. The builder was running low on cash and gave me a very small budget (and he still owes me for a month of wages ). Her is a view of the marigolds shortly before I planted em.
 
 
 
To amend your clay soil you will need to add at least 70% organic matter. (Manure or wood chips etc). If you amend the soil with cheap not composted manure now it should be ready for your spring plantings! (I assume you purchased two yards of soil - you will need to add another 1.5 yards of OM). Do NOT use cedar bark mulch btw. I am sure your local garden centre or a nearby farm could help you out with your purchase.
 
If you can get a deal on sand you will also need to make it at least 70% of your overall volume. However, this is a second choice to some type of organic matter.
 
Sorry for the bad news.........

Reply
 Message 5 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameRedneck_DaveSent: 12/16/2007 3:25 AM
<NOBR>MSN Nicknameslslady10</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 10:24 PM
I know, I've been battling it for years!  Cedar mulch? No Way! Leeches into the soil. Will have to take some pics after the snow melts.

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 18 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameRedneck_Dave</NOBR> Sent: 12/11/2007 10:38 PM
Yeah, cedar is "aleopathic". Ya ever see how a cedar forest has very few plants in the understory and even fewer competing trees? Cedars (and daffodils) give off toxins to try and kill competing plants. Some city parks departments use cedar bark mulch for trails as it is very low maintenance.
 
In the Lower Mainland (of British Columbia) there are giant piles of cedar mulch waiting to go on barges. The leaching from the cedar is a terrible pollutant to the Fraser River.
 
This is why you don't want to mix your daffodil bulbs (or cut flowers) with others. However, you can always plant daffodils under cedar shrubs! This is one of the very few plants which will survive!

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 19 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameOrientalgirl7777</NOBR> Sent: 12/12/2007 3:13 AM
Snowdrops survive under trees like daffodils and they are tiny but beautiful.

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 20 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameainge_devyr</NOBR> Sent: 12/12/2007 4:08 AM
The term "Certified Organic" means something quite different. Certified Organic growers and producers DO NOT use synthetic chemicals or GMO (Genetically Modified Organisms) in their daily practices.
 
"certified organic" is usda double-speak to reference a list of qualities established by the lobbying efforts of large corporate agro-business.
 
most products determined as "certified organic" by the usda -- fail to meet the stringent standards that the consortium of "certified organic growers and producers established for themselves -- and regulate themselves.

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 21 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameHow56</NOBR> Sent: 12/12/2007 5:36 AM
DDuct2 Sent: 12/11/2007 10:12 PM
Didn't the native Americans teach us how to do this long ago by putting a fish in the ground when planting corn?
The anceint Norse had the ritual of the 'Year King' who they killed and planted to ensure a good harvest

Reply
 Message 6 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameRedneck_DaveSent: 12/16/2007 3:25 AM
DDuct2 Sent: 12/12/2007 6:45 AM
We had our front yard landscaped into a "walking path" for my mother-in-law who lives with us (she has Alzheimers) and the soil was so hard they had to use an auger to plant the bushes and shrubs. The landscaper said it was the only time in sixteen years he's had to do that. It was  like planting in clay pots. It took three years and many loads of mulch and organic compounds as well as extensive aerating to finally get them to start growing as they should and to fill in as a "hedge" to enclose the path.
 
After all of that I've now got to put in a new waterline. Guess I'll get out the jackhammer and start again

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 23 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameB4B4B3B2B4B4</NOBR> Sent: 12/12/2007 5:40 PM
Our city has banned the use of pesticides on the lawns.
 
I find it to be just another arrogant leftist attack against the individual and his castle.
 
The good bit is the city has exempted itself from the bylaw.      Seems they do not want to be sued by people who have violent allergies to certain weeds.

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 24 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameshutuporstandup1</NOBR> Sent: 12/12/2007 6:23 PM
A warning.  Years ago, my friend bought a pickuup load of uncomposted chicken manure from a nearby farmer.  By the time he got the load home and unloaded, the manure had eaten away all the paint inside the pickup bed!  It is, evidently, very acidic and corrosive.  Here in Texas, I've heard it described as "hot."

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 25 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameslslady10</NOBR> Sent: 12/12/2007 6:27 PM
I use Richlawn. it's organic composted chicken manure produced specially for our region, greens things right up!

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 26 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameslslady10</NOBR> Sent: 12/12/2007 6:29 PM
Oh , and it doesn't burn plants or grass. just have to watch how much you put on, mowing more than once a week really bites!

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 27 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameB4B4B3B2B4B4</NOBR> Sent: 12/13/2007 2:14 PM
I have a spinning composter which takes about 2 weeks to get from raw to crumbly.
Much better than your typical 4 sided fence which takes 2 years.

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 28 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN Nicknameainge_devyr</NOBR> Sent: 12/13/2007 4:04 PM
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameB4B4B3B2B4B4</NOBR> Sent: 12/12/2007 4:40 PM
Our city has banned the use of pesticides on the lawns.
 
I find it to be just another arrogant leftist attack against the individual and his castle.
 
yes, you are demonstrably not very birght.
 
if you can discover a way of keeping the toxins out of the common air and water supply -- you can bathe in deildrin for all anyone cares!

Reply
 Message 7 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameRedneck_DaveSent: 12/16/2007 3:25 AM
<NOBR>MSN NicknameRedneck_Dave</NOBR> Sent: 12/13/2007 4:20 PM
I used to spray dangerous chemicals (ie 2,4-d, malathion etc) and make good money from it. I was licensed and apparently I took all of the relavent courses to do so.
 
The first time I took my "Pesticide Applicators License" I decribed taking the exam as "you would have to be VERY DRUNK to fail this one". The second one (five years later) was more difficult but only went over legislation and reading labels. There was no hands on component, first aid, environmental or health effects covered.
 
I was starting to have health problems (twitching, nausea, blurred vision etc) which were not mentioned on any labels or included in any of my training. When I looked up the MSDS Reports (and viewing other websites) did I realize I was not only poisoning myself but needlessly putting contaminants in our atmosphere and exposing wildlife, pets and people to this "stuff".
 
More research turned up 2,4-d is a known carcinogen (cancer causing). At this time I stopped spraying but my precious dog (who came with me to work every day) had a mamarian cyst about the size of a fist. She had to be put down.
 
 
RIP Sheeba. You are dearly missed and will never be forgotten
 
I learned several hard lessons from spraying synthetic pesticides. I now don't use dangerous chemicals and the yards I have taken care of were all weed free and the greenest on the block.
 
I now campaign "against the use of synthetic pesticides for cosmetic uses". I sit on a board of one environmental group, write letters, FOIP reqests and occasionally write articles and a guest speaker at gardening events
 
Most people are conserned about their health and support anti-smoking campaigns. We now watch what we put down our drains although this is one topic which most people have not been educated on
 
B4B4B3B2B4B4, what city do you live in?
 
Dave
 
 

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 30 of 30 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameB4B4B3B2B4B4</NOBR> Sent: 12/13/2007 6:14 PM
Dave, your green thumb in horticulture was obviously from doping.    You probably had your gardens and lawns all juiced up.
 
Just kidding.   It is actually refreshing to hear someone who walked the walk.    I wish I could keep the weeds at bay.  I cannot.
I have thick turf.   I do not cut it too short.  I do have it fertilized.   And the weeds just keep on comin.
 
Creeping charlie and a few others I just cannot get rid of.    Dandelions are easy.  They have a tap root.   the others are weeds from hell.

First  Previous  2-7 of 7  Next  Last 
Return to The Garden Shed