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�?Message Board : conjuration of the four
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 Message 1 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamedracony_gimp  (Original Message)Sent: 11/30/2007 11:03 PM
Well, ive read a book on conjuration (re-read Levi's book), and as uually he says that man is ought to command the elementals, not to ask for their help (most incantations are generally like: do my will or ill kick you in the head, gnome(sylph, undine, salamander))
But to make them obey one first has to show he can surpress them in their own element(like climb a cliff during a storm), but how can, for example, handicaped achive that? i mean this is all about not fearing the element, so is there a more safe way to show that lack of fear?

Btw, Levi promises abilities like walking on water after this, but i doubt someone has ever survived his trials, lol (for example casting oneself to open fire to prove you dont fear salamanders)


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 Message 2 of 8 in Discussion 
From: EvonneSent: 1/4/2008 4:34 PM
It seems that life tends to bring people to places where they have to survive the elements (elementals) or not.  I danced in the fire once.  I only slightly melted my sneekers.

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 Message 3 of 8 in Discussion 
From: EvonneSent: 1/4/2008 4:34 PM
Oh yeah...
 
Disclaimer:
 
Don't do this stuff.  I would prefer the element meditations.

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 Message 4 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamedracony_gimpSent: 1/6/2008 10:45 PM
well, if to believe levi's writings the elementals are egoistic and soulless, and either you rule them or vice versa.

But here came a question: can a hadicaped become a mage? For example a person without hands wont be ble to overcome sylphs (for example by climbing a high cliff during storm), but wuld that really matter if he had a great willpower? maybe conquering the elementals is just a ritual of sort?

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 Message 5 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameGreenwolf0Sent: 1/16/2008 9:31 PM
Hi I am new I hope you don't mind if I add my two cents here.
 
Everything has a spirit and a soul. Especially the elementals. I would think that a handicapped person could become a mage unless they were mentally handicapped then they could become more of a witch than a mage because a mage has more ceremonial difficult intricate spells that need to be learned where with a witch you can make your own spells and cast them and it is mostly the will power. The learning is less book and more heart.
 
Greenwolf

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 Message 6 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameGreenwolf0Sent: 1/16/2008 9:43 PM
 Sorry I have re read your post. AndI think it is aterribly arrogant attitude to take to think anyone can "control" the elementals. I have tried. I had storm magic. I have thinned out soupy green clouds so a tornado wouldn'e rip up my home and send it over the rainbow and yet not wishing to dflect it onto some other poor soul I tried to lessen it's anger. One nasty wet summer my garden was being choked by weeds. I was sick of the rain coming in and pouring out after a mere half hour of sunshine where I was trying to get  caught up on my garden and other yard work. I pushed away the clouds for a good hour and a half two hours until I had my garden done. Then I relaxed my will and said thank you go a head with your rain. It hailed. I had three inches of marble sized hail all over my yard. The neighbors didn't get any.Nobody got any hail except my yard. I got my hands royally slapped for that.
 The moral of this story is respect. I f you respect the power it will respect you. You may not always get what you want but if you piss off the elements you may get a lot worse than not having things YOUR way.
Be careful be wise, be respectful. Yours is not the only power, nor the greatest one, especially when compared to the elementals. There is a reason the Chineese look at them as dragons. Don't get eaten.
 
Blessings,  Greenwolf

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 Message 7 of 8 in Discussion 
From: EvonneSent: 2/28/2008 7:33 PM
That is the way it is presented at times--the way that Drac is saying.  It is a point of view that may describe overcoming the elements through the self.

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 Message 8 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameCorvusAlatusSent: 6/28/2008 1:10 AM
(yeah, i know its an old thread--but drac's been away, and now he's back. So )
 
Drac is reading from Elphias Levi, which is dealing in Ceremonial magic--the relationship between the Ceremonial mages and the various spirits they summoned--from the elementals, to the infernal spirits of the Goetia--has primarily been one of dominance. The mages would need to prove their ability to subjugate the spirit to the mage's will, by force. It's the method they knew, and the methods by which they work.
 
An excerpt from "High Magic's Aid", by Gerald Gardner (under the pen name of Scire), in which the Ceremonial magus Thur is discussing the problem with the two boys, Jan and Olaf, as well as the Witch (who is a literary match and indicator of the Wicca Gardner was later to introduce) Morven. This is from Chapter 16: Making the Great Circle, page 165 in my copy.
 
Wicca itself blends aspects of ceremonial magic with other things Gardner had picked up--from the New Forest coven, to the writings and teachings of others--from Thelema to the Golden Dawn, and so forth.
 

"...All who enter the Circle with me come as my helpers, and must help me by thinking correctly, to give me strength and so increase my power; for if there is any in the circle who lets his thoughts stray from the matter at hand, he not only weakens me and so defeats his own ends, but brings danger upon us all."

"Danger?" Jan exclaimed, startled.

"Aye lad, for our lives."

"From what?"

"Blasting," said Thur grimly. "Nothing quicker than a spirit to detect weakness in a magus or a slackening of the powers that summon him. For I must summon the power of war and revenge. He is not evil in himself, but his powers are dangerous if not controlled. He will not want to come, he would never come of his own free will. I may command him to come and cover such command by enticements, and blind him, puzzle him and bring him by sweet incense such as all spirits love according to their nature. Then, when I have got him within hearing, command him by the power of the holy names, and so force him to obey my will. But if he sense the slightest weakness in the magus, or anyone present, straightaway he will become unruly and disobedient, and his power, clashing with our wills, might end by destroying us all. If you make the slightest gap in a mill dam, the imprisoned waters may rush forth destroying both dam and you. The water wishes you no ill, it will work willingly for you, an you control it. So remember, as this is the power of the spirits we loose forth. Our weakness is their strength. If we lose control, it may mean our destruction."

"But why do they not work for us willingly?" asked Morven.

"Dear child, an we could go cap in hand and ask them, perchance they might. But remember, we have to get in touch with them first, and the only way we know is to trap them, blind their eyes and mind and speech, till they may see and hear us only. Would you not be angered if, say, a flock of sheep surounded you and forcd you to labour for them, enforcing their demands by jostling and biting? i have to summon the spirit by force and apply mroe and more force till he comes, willing or not; and all i can offer in return is sweet odours, courtesy and respect..."


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