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�?2001 : illusion/interpretation/internalization
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 Message 1 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamesolace©  (Original Message)Sent: 12/31/2001 4:59 AM
is personal illusion necessary,  accompanying interpretation of any moment and or thing, to fulfill internalization? (and thereby for us to  retain any info and what said info relates to et cetera infinity) who says/thinks we need to drop personal illusion? will this make us more 'attuned' or 'aware' or simply negate the perspective from which we approach slash seek 'enlightenment' and or 'balance' and or 'happiness'?  is it even possible to exist as a human without having personal illusions?  half the things an individual knows as fact are only things they have been told are facts for others.. like that heating bread can make toast.. but if they have never made toast is it really a fact for them or just an illusion they allow themselves to attribute to reality?


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 Message 6 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheNewImprovedLighthartSent: 1/1/2002 1:23 AM
Its simple and unexplainable except maybe in parable or anologie but the words are out there, I know they are , I just haven't found them yet. Whats bothering me is why do people want it to be so hard? Its like oh...I don't know....like eating. Only someone hands you a fork, a spoon, a knife, chopsticks and maybe a pitchfork and a shovel to boot. All of these things will work but hey I've got fingers for a reason, right?

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 Message 7 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamesolace©Sent: 1/1/2002 2:20 AM
i think you have a conditioned idea of what suffering is, and i think my conditioning is different. as an enlightened being i would still hope to suffer, for without doing so to some degree i cannot fathom actualizing unconditional compassion. to regergitate the rest, exactly-any interpretation of a tree is an illusion and the only absolute is that truth is relative.... reality of the life experience holds a seperate meaning to each individual and what one holds true is only fantasy and whimsy for another....    and that all having now been expressed, why does the cessation of suffering , and therefore a loss of one of the facets of life, help create or exist as a factor in the enlightened being? why is the enlightened being not able to experience all things without constraint ... especially since experiencing anything (supposedly) without conditioned responses is rumoured to an ideal ?

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 Message 8 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamesolace©Sent: 1/1/2002 2:21 AM
* rumoured to be an ideal

Reply
 Message 9 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MýkkýoSent: 1/1/2002 3:05 AM

Well I have no doubt whatsoever that our conditioning has been VERY different, and I am also sure that my perspective of suffering is much different them yours. I do see your point, I just see things, as would be expected, a little differently then you. I will say that, of course enlightened being experience suffering, they are human like you and I, and there was a time before they were enlightened that they experienced it in the same way we do. What I see as different is not that they no longer know it or see it, it’s in what way they are affected by it. Some people enjoy pain and suffering, people enjoy many different things…but no matter what blows your hair back there is a truth behind it beyond what even the experiencer has experienced.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

So I will agree to disagree as I respect your opinion, and hope that that thing you seek is what you shall find.<o:p></o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

~Mykkyo

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 Message 10 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamehooplight�?/nobr>Sent: 1/1/2002 4:29 AM
Ok, solace
You are correct...this illusion is our reality..so personal illusion at this moment is our understanding of truth as it exist's for us in this moment, at this time, in our reality as it exist's as humans on earth born of humans's...are we more yes..does it matter NO...only cause we strive to live... not to die and become as we were ....so we strive as humans to balance our unique perspective to be that which we are inherantly....spirit...and live as we have chosen human...with all the pit falls and joy's..that humanity endures as our reality...so no matter the illusion ..this is our reality and we can choose to treat it as an illusion and a figmant of our imagination..or we can take it seriously..and pay chilled scrupulous attention...or we can throw sand,............... cause it is an illusion.
Point being..........what we do...illlusion or not it is our choice 
 
 
 
      and what do you choose....will illusion prevent you or propel you.....does it matter...what matters to you?
Hoop

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 Message 11 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MýkkýoSent: 1/1/2002 6:01 AM

Is choice what we have? Yes�?Is it the best we can hope for or the best we can do? if your choice is to live only by the illusions of your perceptions…then the answer is also yes. Are we more then what we seem to be or the choices we make, and does it matter…yes we are and how could it not, if nothing really mattered what would the point be of the spiritual quest at all.

I choose to know life without suffering…relationships without jealousy, anger, or misery�?livelihood without the discomfort of need�?Loosing without the sense of lose…a friendly debate without the need of right or wrong.

It is all to easy to rely on things like spirit, God, Love and light and we as human produce these concepts because they are very comforting. We produce something we call inherent as a means of knowing there will be something or some part of us that will live on after death…all because we are scared of the illusion we have created around death itself.

No matter the illusion, this is our reality and that being the choice that will be the outcome. And if your choices in the new year are choices based on your illusions with no aspiration to ‘know�?what the truth is behind what you see, then the illusions you choose are the illusions you will endure.

There are many different spiritual views many paths to choose from…which is right and which is wrong? Both and neither, you will choose the path of illusion that best suits you because creatures derive their character from mind, marshaled by mind, mind made we are.

The mind is the source, the producer of illusion. Will you choose the illusions as they are because that’s what you know and that’s what is comfortable? or come to know the illusions you base your choices on.

~Mykkyo


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 Message 12 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamehooplight�?/nobr>Sent: 1/1/2002 6:32 AM
The best we can do...what a laugh...dont live beyond who your humanity says you are at this moment..if you do...well you are in a world that offers only dishonor......illusion or reality isnt the point
pay chilled scrupulus attention.........is   life                                                                                   
 ..live .......live every moment as it is intended....  breath is pure..the only breath you will ever get....that my friend is the illusion of reality.....buy it ...pay from your soul and by the Divine use it...feel the Joy...Feel the Fear..Feel the Love ..Feel the Indeference.........feel it all...for it is your reality it is your life...throw sand ...or ....?
Hoop

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 Message 13 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MýkkýoSent: 1/1/2002 7:06 AM
Dishonor from compassion... thats a new one on me...humanity says what humanity is...feeling all things but seeing them for what they are is the choice I would make....in doing so I see the benefits of sharing my 'backyard' with anyone with the desire to know. If dishonor for you comes from the carring for others or others carring for you, I am truely sorry. your opinion or mine...like you said, what does it matter...my reality or yours... both right both wrong.
 
~Mykkyo 

Reply
 Message 14 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamehooplight�?/nobr>Sent: 1/2/2002 12:38 AM
Hummm,,,seems as if you misunderstood..i mentioned nothing of compassion....what i was trying to say ...that dishonor comes from not taking the fruits of this world simply as they are..fear with the intensity of a white face and shaking hands......i did not say keep the fear nor did i say not to show compassion when you see it in the eyes of another.....accept/...means to breath it in...the suffering..as I know one instance..holding my fathers hand as cancer chewed him up and spit him out....did I choose not to experience it ...Did he.........Honor was holding the hand..and honor was taking the last breath....embracing both life and death....the release comes afterward...like slowly shedding your skin..for the one left living
Dishonor to me...would be walking threw this life choosing to experience only from the outside looking in
 

I choose to know life without suffering…relationships without jealousy, anger, or misery�?livelihood without the discomfort of need�?Loosing without the sense of lose…a friendly debate without the need of right or wrong...

this is what you wrote that found me a bit confused...we all choose the things you have stated....but few have the skills to hold to that value...I myself agree with your choices myself...but have found a deeper value in suffering and in discomfort...i do not value these above peace and love....my view is only that if you do not feel all of the worlds emotions and release them then you dishonor yourself

 

so do tell me what it was  that i said that made you sorry for me..and gave you the impression I found dishonor in compassion?

hoop

 


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 Message 15 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheNewImprovedLighthartSent: 1/2/2002 3:14 AM
I read something interesting today. We are not looking for the truth. We are looking for the lies we enshroud the truth with. We can then drop them, and halooo...the truth that was always there....no longer in disguise. As far as suffering goes...its a choice just like anything else. You can choose not to love , you can choose not to suffer. You can choose whatever the heck you want....that is how you pay for life. Choice is the coin. We see a lot of things in ways that cause suffering, if we choose to see them differently , they no longer cause suffering. So... tell me.... when is suffering a good thing? When could you choose to suffer that would be helpful, productive, you know? I believe if you turn suffering over, you will find compassion on the other side.

Reply
 Message 16 of 20 in Discussion 
From: TAWNYSent: 1/4/2002 11:02 AM
 i choose to send you a rainbow for a  symbol of what this letter is about. you said that u have  found suffering in compassion.  Maybe  this is your 1st step to understanding why it is there, in our hearts to naturally feel this towards someone, espically someone we care about.  Yow want to have  some sort of detachement but yet to have the distractions thrills you. you should maybe take the time to meditate and try to answer your questions with only simple concentration and awareness.
 

  i think that you need a mixture of rain and sun to make a rainbow

 

                                                                   Tawny


Reply
 Message 17 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheNewImprovedLighthartSent: 1/4/2002 2:28 PM
Good point Tawny, but I think its more like I find compassion for suffering rather than suffer along with the sufferer I do like  what you said about what makes a rainbow, but I don't see rain as suffering but as a cleansing of what we choose to make us suffer. I used to suffer in the rain when I thought of how much I missed the sun, now I love the rain for what its purpose is, to cleanse me so the sun can show off all my pretty colors Oh...and I have been meditating again after a long break...its  wonderful

Reply
 Message 18 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MýkkýoSent: 1/5/2002 6:55 PM

Hoop,

The reason for my sorrow was in empathy for your desire to feel bad in order to feel good, we all feel bad at some point or we wouldn’t know good to begin with, but there can come a time when the way in which we see and experience bad can become something that is no longer hurtful to us. For me an example is this, I have three children, I am divorced and they no longer live with me. For a time this was painful to me and even they were a source of pain in association with the break up of my marriage. As time went on and I saw the truth of the emotions I was experiencing I also began to recognize the futility of feeling pain in this association. Feeling bad in association with them was nothing more then a creation of my mind and was not at all conducive to feeling good about my present situation or maintaining a decent relationship with my ex-wife for their benefit or the benefit maintaining a respectable relationship with her. So I changed the way I saw these things, removed the bad all together and now even in the divorce itself see only the good, or rather the positive. My ex and I are now friends and I maintain a good relationship with my children. Now this may have not been possible had I not first experienced bad, but having already known bad in so many things, one can begin to eliminate the bad before what is seen as bad occurs and in doing so eliminate the need for it altogether cultivating only compassion of those who we mistakenly think have the ability to cause us pain. Emotional pain cannot be caused by others, we create these ill feelings in or selves, the anger that keeps us awake at night, or brings poor decisions is not something that was placed in us by the individual who we have ill feelings toward, it is what we created in our own mind in relation to what we view, through our conditioning, as bad or undesirable. Once this is recognized no one will be able to make you mad because they never really had the power to do so in the first place.

Dishonor in compassion…the reason I made that statement was not only in relation to this post but also your ‘what bugs you�?post. Whenever I speak about anything its always from a Buddhist perspective, my own Buddhist perspective, and that path is based in compassion for all things. So when you speak of the need for bad, or anger for those who are interested in you life and then relate dishonor to not feeling pain and discomfort, or more specifically in the way I was referring to it, compassion, it leads one to think you find dishonor in this compassion. So if there is dishonor in compassion I would choose it, it does not mean I don’t know what pain is or that I’ve not experienced it, only that the way I choose to let it effect me has changed…it no longer does (most the time J ), and I feel compassion for all those who harbor ill feeling and feel the need to do so in order to experience life.

~Mykkyo


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 Message 19 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamehooplight�?/nobr>Sent: 1/5/2002 7:42 PM
Thank you Mykkyo,
I do apreciate your reply...let me explain a few things for you...I understand your compassion and your path to non suffering....in fact I walked a simular path with my ex husband ..I have known for a long time that my pain is mine and that no person is responsible but me...what i want to explain is I never honored my pain...I walked ,pushed forward never taking a moment to know my own hurts ...to experience my emotions as they were ..I faught for my life against myself...i know makes no sense really ..but the way I lived was to bury all emotion for it was dangerous to show weakness..and emotion was weakness...what you have seen in me and most likely will continue to see is me actually feeling..even the pain..especially the pain...since i walked within my shadow I have had the experience of my life reflecting all those little things I have burried...all the things that I refused to suffer  let alone feel with detachment....I am now tasting them again and plan on feeling them fully without detachment...unfortunatly the triggers will be all the people I speak with write too and have in my family...although it is truly a gift that I am finally whole..and relearning my path in an authentic way.....I do tend to come across as loving the taste of pain....but then again in a way I do...for now I can finally feel it as it is...not a rummbling inside screaming to get out....so when my hair stands up I plan on honoring it...when the tears start streaming I dont swallow them back....when I feel defensive  I will most likely show my hackles...just dont make assumptions on my ability to detach and let go of the suffering....I am quite a capable person and Although my shadow is where I stored my pain I dont plan on living there.....what I would like you to understand is not that I seek Suffering only that I seek to know myself..and I have found within myself great things when they are honored as they are
thanks mykkyo
hoop

Reply
 Message 20 of 20 in Discussion 
From: MýkkýoSent: 1/5/2002 10:44 PM
Fair enough Hoop  after all what I really care about is our happiness, and it sounds as though you have a handle on how you make that happen for you, and in the end it is each one of us that is finally responcible for creating the means we need to find that happiness.
 
All my best to you, and my hopes for your happiness
 
~Mykkyo

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