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General : EFA Defiency. Is it even possble?
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 Message 1 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJamieDH4  (Original Message)Sent: 3/1/2007 11:35 PM
Hans-

I was looking up "EFA defiency" while I was at work yesterday. I saw the common "symptoms" of "EFA defiency", etc. What caught my attention was that even very small amounts of "EFA" can reverse "EFA defiency". I think one study I read said that 0.25 grams was enough to reverse the defiency. I can't imagine that anyone would be able to eat less then that in a normal day no matter how much they tried. I eat about 80 grams of total fat a day, of which about 70 come from saturated fatty acids. Cheese, butter, and coconut oil are basically my only sources of fat, but I can't imagine that in my entire day that I do not consume 0.25 grams of some type of EFA.

Also, I noticed that most of the studies that talk about EFA defiency symptoms talk about "man" on a completely fat free diet. Why don't they try a fat free diet with a little bit of olive oil, butter, or coconut oil added to it and see what happens?


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 Message 2 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 3/2/2007 6:34 AM
This is the usual "have their cake and eat it too" sort of claim.  If "EFAD" is so unlikely, why even mention it?  On the other hand, having Mead acid in your cells is supposed to be a clear sign of being "EFAD."  Also, consider that in most "modern" nations today, the vast majority of peoples' cells have AA in them rather than the Mead acid, and so they assume that this is the "normal" state, even though it's only been the case for several decades.
 
As to the studies on "EFAD," I've seen a few that talk about people who are in very bad shape, physically, and when dealing with such people, you can easily mistake symptoms for whatever "disease" you are seeking.  But again, they need to state their claims in a formal hypothesis, just like the "HIV/AIDS" crowd, and then the scientific process can go forward in a manner consistent with the scientific method.  However, I've already seen the obvious differences, in myself and in my great grandparents, and there is also the molecular-level evidence showing clear differences in the "inflammatory response" in cells with AA or EPA versus cells with Mead acid.
 
In any case, the question is, what amount allows Mead acid to replace AA, if you have AA in your cells at present?  I think the .025 gram claim is extreme - I've never seen it before.  Can you cite the source?  The least I've seen is 1.5 g of omega 3 and also 1.5 g of omega 6s.  For example, at: http://www.wellnessalternatives-stl.com/essentialfattyacids.htm
 
Interestingly, take a look at the list of "deficiency" symptoms that one company is telling people they might experience if they are "EFAD:"  http://www.anyvitamins.com/fatty-acids-info.htm
 
Now the question for such people is, what do you say to someone like me, who does not have any "EFAD" symptoms after years on a diet with only a tiny amount of omega 6s and hardly any omega 3s?  If they are "essential," they cannot be partially essential, some of the time, in some people.  Basically, their claims are a house of cards resting upon a fictional foundation.  It was refuted in 1948, but because it's been considered so "minor," scientifically, until recently, nobody has paid much attention to it one way or the other.  However, there is now "big money" in it, such as in fish oil supplement sales, and so even studies that are outright refutations are ignored, though many "experts" are just plain ignorant, of course.

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 Message 3 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJamieDH4Sent: 3/2/2007 6:51 AM
Yes, I can cite a study but give me a day or two to find the specific one I am talking about. The number was "0.25" not "0.025", and basically what it was saying what that a quarter gram was enough to reverse the EFA defiency symptoms. Again, just give me a day or two to find this specific study.

The evidence you have presented, as well as that of Ray Peat and from my research have convinced me that Omega-6's and Omega-3's are not essential. My point was though that I don't even think its possible in a natural, everyday life situation to become "defienct" (if there is even a defiency) no matter how much you restrict your intake.

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 Message 4 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJamieDH4Sent: 3/2/2007 7:04 AM
See, Hans, that link you posted frustrates me so much. An uneducated person would see a page like that and take it as fact, and then spread that misinformation to others. There is not one single reference in that entire article, but the uneducated person would not even think to look at that. If you look at the things written on that page they are basically, or possibly even literally, a copy and paste from sites like Mercola.com. These supposed "alternative" health people spread their misinformation like wildfire, but its all based on bad science or a very selective view of the science. I have seriously considered posting negative studies about Omega-3 fatty acids on the Mercola.com forum, but I see no point.
I remember when I was an uneducated person who got my health information from Dr. Mercola's website. He had me convinced that I needed to take 4 grams of fish oil a day.
I had my first HPV outbreak in August of 2005 when I began taking Omega-3 fatty acids every day, and the outbreak went away and never returned about 2 months after I stopped taking them.

I just can not stand to look at pages like that, because people are destroying their bodies when they think they are improving them.

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 Message 5 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 3/3/2007 6:04 AM
My problem started about a year and a half after I started omega 3 supplementation.  And yes, I meant .25 g was low; .025 would be miniscule.  And yes, if that was the case, "EFAD" would be nearly impossible.  However, if you were rasied on food that led to your having Mead acid in your cells, taking a gram or so a day of something like sunflower oil would not necessarily mean that the Mead acid would be replaced with AA, though obviously I think it's a bad idea.  So the key point is, how low can you go if you have AA in your cells in order to keep it there?  Since I would want the AA gone, I would keep omega 6 and 3 intake very low for a couple of years, at least.
 
As to the "alternative" crowd: many want to sell supplements and make profits, so I discount those people immediately - too much conflict of interest possible.  Their attitude is that the body just "breaks down" for no reason, unless you "get back to nature" with their supplements.  Fortunately, I witnessed my great grandparents live to be 96 and 100+ years old, and they ate a low PUFA diet (they used olive oil, due to their ethnic background).  However, they ate plenty of dairy and sugar-rich foods.  They ate some canned fruit and grew their own vegetables, with only small servings of meat once a day.  They never had any major source of omega 3s.
 
Something else to consider, in terms of things like dry skin; it may be that in a tropical climate with high humidity, this would never be a problem.  In any case, all I do is use a little coconut oil on my face in the morning.  Otherwise, my skin is fine.  I usually wash my hair every few days with just water, because it never gets greasy like it used to.  But as I said, most of their "studies" on humans involve people who just had surgery or people who were on fed through tubes for a while, not on healthy college students, though they use healthy college students to try to show that omega 3s are "beneficial."  They feed them an omega 6 rich diet, adding fish oil, and look at various markers a few weeks or so later.  The fish oil interferes with AA being made into dangerous molecules like LTB4 or PGE2, so this is the "benefit."  With Mead acid in your cells, however, your body cannot make LTB4 or PGE2 in the first place, so it's not even an issue.

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 Message 6 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametaka00381Sent: 3/3/2007 6:30 AM
Exactly my point too, I have been with Mercola.com for 4 years with only negative effect on my health. Those sites make you think it's the aging process itself and not their supplements what makes you sick ... Although you may find even some supposedly good staff there like the virgin coconut oil. The Whey Healthier protein mix by Mercola is also of questionable value for sedentary people because of its high tryptophan content. I don't know the age of Dr. Mercola, but he surely looks like "getting his everyday dose of fish oil" on videos ... Actually, he reports the same sickness resulting in unconsciousness I experienced while taking his cod liver oil:
http://www.mercola.com/2006/aug/8/the_best_deadly_poisons_ingested_or_inhaled.htm
He blames it on the germs/toxins and lamb meat but I have not eaten anything like that when it happened to me ...

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 Message 7 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 3/3/2007 10:19 PM
With Mead acid in your cells and a good diet, the "germs" and "toxins" are much less of a problem.  Ingesting a lot of fish oil makes your body much more reactive biochemically, and that makes the "germs" prompt an inflammatory response more easily and it means the "toxins" will be involved in dangerous reactions.  I don't want to put a picture of myself up here, but I'm in my early 40s and people think I'm in my early 30s.
 
Another point is the claim about "balancing" omegas 6s and 3s.  I don't think this is what happens.  You can only have one PUFA that acts as a substrate for metabolites when stressed beyond a certain threshold (and that threshold is lower if AA is there rather than the Mead aci).  When I tried a lot of omega 3 suppolementation, I noticed that my wounds/cuts didn't heal well - sort of a thin, wrinkely scab.  With AA, my scabs were like a hard plastic.  Obviously, the omega 3s were being used to heal the wounds/cuts, and not AA.  There was no "balance."  It's amazing how various "scientific experts" generate stories that sound good to the general public, but which make no sense scientifically.

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 Message 8 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJamieDH4Sent: 3/4/2007 2:53 AM
The point of whats wrong with Dr. Mercola is that he completely ignores any information that doesn't support the conclusion he has already come to. He already has his conclusion and then just includes the facts that supports it and throws the rest of them out. It is so obvious that he is completely ignoring any information that doesn't support his dietary protocol it's not even funny. It's sick.
I don't like to criticise people's lifestyle choices, but this man is a quack.

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 Message 9 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 3/4/2007 6:08 AM
It would be interesting to know how Mercola came to believe in his ideology of food and health.  Perhaps he already had an idea about sugar being unhealthy, and he only paid attention to reports of studies that seemed to support this view.  It's a very common problem, so if he is a "quack" then there are few "experts" who are not, unfortunately.  I had a "health" teacher in high school who was like this; he blamed all of the "chronic disease" on bleached flour, though his only "evidence" was that its consumption appeared to coincide with various "chronic disease" epidemics.  Now, however, there is more than enough molecular-level evidence to show what is causing problems and what is not, though when I've contacted these kinds of people, some has said that they just didn't understand this evidence, and could only rely on the statistically oriented correlation studies ("epidemiology"), which I consider a weak excuse at best, particularly from those with advanced degrees in science or who are medical doctors.

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 Message 10 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJamieDH4Sent: 3/5/2007 5:43 AM
Okay, I was wrong. I was reading the online Merck Manual of 2005 and it said something about cow's milk having 25% of LA. However, on wikipedia it states that any amount of Omega-6 is capable of reversing the defiency. I know Wikipedia is not a credible source of information, but I can't imagine that they pull that "factoid" out of the sky.
It doesn't seem that the term "essential fatty acid" is even clearly defined. While searching pubmed for the reference I thought I had read I stumbled upon a few abstracts that state that the term is poorly defined. The same goes for "essential fatty acid defiency" and the requirements for "reversal".

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 Message 11 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 3/5/2007 10:54 PM
Yes, it's a bunch of cobbled-together nonsense, basically. It was refuted in 1948, for goodness sake ! However, the human mind seems to have the proclivity to "get stuck in ruts," intellectually. "HIV/AIDS" is one example, and there's the "saturated fat causes heart attack" stuff, and this "EFA" thing. Also, the idea that "germs" cause "infectious disease" is wrong as well, in that it is much more complicated than that, and if people lived a certain way, there would hardly be any "infectious disease" at all.

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 Message 12 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametaka00381Sent: 7/26/2007 3:58 AM
At http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/haycock/prostaglandin-pgf2a.htm I read that the AA metabolites prostaglandins have been discovered in 1930. Hans, do you think that people at that time already consumed vegetable oils? If they had mostly Mead acid in their cells the scientists could not find PGE2 ?

Prostaglandins and their Discovery

Prostaglandins are part of a class of substances called eicosanoids. Eicosanoids are a group of substances derived from fatty acids and include prostaglandins, thromboxanes, and leukotrienes, all of which are formed from precursor fatty acids by the incorporation of oxygen atoms into the fatty acid chains. This reaction is called oxygenation and is carried out by cyclo-oxygenase enzymes. Prostaglandins and their metabolites have been found in virtually every tissue in the body.

The discovery of prostaglandins and determination of their structure began in 1930, when Raphael Kurzrok and Charles Lieb, both new York gynecologists, observed that human seminal fluid stimulates contraction of isolated uterine muscle. A few years later in Sweden, Ulf von Euler confirmed this report and noted that human seminal fluid also produces contraction in intestinal smooth muscle and lowers blood pressure when injected into the blood stream. It was Von Euler who came up with the name prostaglandin for this mysterious substance. The name prostaglandin seemed appropriate because he thought it originated in the prostate gland. Today, we know that prostaglandin production is not limited to the prostate, in fact, there is virtually no soft tissue in the body that doesn’t produce them. The name, however, has stuck with us through the years. If Von Euler had known his name for prostaglandins would still be with us into the next millennia, I’m sure he would have chosen to name them "Von Eulers" or "UVEs" instead of prostaglandins. By 1960, several specific prostaglandins had been isolated in pure crystalline form and their structures determined. Because our concern with prostaglandins involves primarily PGF2a, and perhaps PGE2, we will not go into detail about the myriad of other prostaglandins. Just know that prostaglandins are abbreviated "PG". The additional letter and numerical script indicate the type and series. The various types differ in the functional group present in the five-membered ring.

While scientists were studying the structure of these new compounds, other research was being done to determine their role in human physiology and their potential as drugs. Initially these compounds were extremely expensive to synthesize and/or isolate in sufficient quantities for research. In 1969, the price of prostaglandins dropped dramatically with the discovery that the gorgonian sea whip, or sea fan, is a rich source of prostaglandin-like materials. Now however, there is no need to rely on natural sources because chemists have developed highly effective laboratory methods for the synthesis of almost any prostaglandin or prostaglandin analog.

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 Message 13 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 7/26/2007 6:05 AM
No, I think they just discovered metabolites of Mead acid, but they could have been AA metabolites. Most people had Mead acid in their cells back then. For example:

" ...Prostaglandin H synthase-1 of ram vesicular glands metabolises 5,8,11-eicosatrienoic (Mead) acid to 13R-hydroxy-5,8,11-eicosatrienoic and to 11R-hydroxy-5,8,12-eicosatrienoic in a 5:1 ratio..."

Source: J Chromatogr B Biomed Sci Appl. 1997 Mar 7;690(1-2):332-7.

Of course, if prostaglandins were the issue, then why is fish oil being recommended. For example:


"We found that prostaglandin production is negatively controlled by endogenous docosahexaenoic acid... Addition of exogenous docosahexaenoic acid inhibited prostaglandin synthesis... Thus, we identify a regulatory mechanism important for the brain, in which docosahexaenoic acid released from astrocytes by VIB Ca(2+)-independent phospholipase A(2) negatively controls prostaglandin production."

Source: J Neurochem. 2007 Jun 6; [Epub ahead of print].

In the 1948 "EFA" refutation experiment, the researchers did not know about Mead acid, which was yet to be discovered, and they concluded that the rats could make their own omega 6 PUFAs, which is now known to be false. They were just looking for a long-chain PUFA that would have "eicosanoid" functions, and then assumed that existing claims about omega 6s were true. Be careful about the old studies - make sure you read the actual study, and then read it carefully.

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 Message 14 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 7/26/2007 6:22 AM
A rat study of only linoleic acid deficiency:

Abstract: "Essential fatty acid deficiency has been widely studied but the extent to which its effects are attributable specifically to deficiency of linoleate as opposed to deficiency of all unsaturated fatty acids is unknown. Our objective was to evaluate the effect of pure linoleate deficiency on growth as well as changes in the metabolism and oxidation of n-6 polyunsaturates. The diets contained 20 energy % fat blended from 3 energy % pure oleate, 2 energy % linoleate (0.01 energy % in the linoleate-deficient group), 0.3 energy % pure alpha-linolenate, and the balance as palmitate and stearate from fully hydrogenated soybean oil. Thirty-five-day-old rats consumed the two diets for 84 days, after which the linoleate-deficient rats weighed 15% less than the controls (P < 0.05), had mild scaling on the paws, and visible hair loss (in a few rats). Compared with the controls, the ratio of eicosatrienoate to arachidonate after 84 days was elevated in liver (170-fold) and serum (520-fold) phospholipids of the linoleate-deficient group. In total, linoleate-deficient rats consumed 122 mg of linoleate and had a net whole body loss of 479 mg n-6 polyunsaturates compared with an intake of 24,130 mg and a net whole body gain of 7206 mg n-6 polyunsaturates in the control group. Linoleate-deficient rats oxidized 1% of an oral bolus of [1-14C]linoleate over 8 h compared with 34% in the control rats (P < 0.05). We conclude that pure linoleate deficiency has marked effects on accumulation of n-6 polyunsaturates but induces milder gross symptoms, particularly growth retardation, than classical essential fatty acid deficiency. alpha-Linolenate and possibly oleate may have a sparing effect on linoleate oxidation from body stores during linoleate deficiency."

Title: Pure linoleate deficiency in the rat: influence on growth, accumulation of n-6 polyunsaturates, and [1-14C]linoleate oxidation.

Source: Journal of Lipid Research, Vol 38, 805-812, Copyright © 1997 by Lipid Research, Inc.

So there are only "milder" symptoms, and these are likely due to the AA being released when there is little LA in the diet. And notice how short this study was. Moreover, the diet was far from "natural," including hydrogenated oils. There has still yet to be a study where the animals are fed a diet rich in Mead acid, for example, feeding cats "EFAD" rats.

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 Message 15 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 7/26/2007 6:28 AM
You might want to take a look at:

http://www.cyberlipid.org/history/history1.htm

and: http://www.cyberlipid.org/fa/acid0003.htm

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