MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
The Scientific Debate Forum.Contains "mature" content, but not necessarily adult.[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Disclaimer: Read this page first.  
  Links  
  Messages  
  General  
  Nutrition  
  "Mission Statement."  
  Why the "germ theory" is not science.  
  The Underlying Cause of "Disease."  
  The Scientific Method.  
  How dangerous are bacteria and viruses?  
  The Contributions of Hans Selye and others.  
  How direct effects are often ignored, and indirect markers used  
  Understanding "disease" at the molecular level.  
  Understanding disease at the molecular level, part II.  
  What the "common cold" can teach us about illness.  
  The AA connection to today's common "diseases."  
  How easy the key experiments would be to do.  
  The best practical diet and the explanation for it.  
  Fish oil quotes you might want to read  
  Where the "immune system" fits into this view of "disease."  
  How many 'scientific studies' violate the scientific method  
  Why you have to be careful with antioxidants.  
  Why Cancers today are more aggressive than those of the past.  
  The Latest Evidence.  
  Some studies worthy of note.  
  HSWC "in action."  
  How language can impede science.  
  How language impedes science, part II.  
  More on why "germs" don't cause "disease."  
  How a latent virus actually causes "disease."  
  A new report that "says it all."  
  The science "show" must go on?  
  Odds and ends  
  Some thoughts on a book by Robert Gallo.  
  Saturated fatty acids are the solution, not the problem.  
  It's stress, not "germs" that causes disease.  
  Epidemiology: Facts versus "factoids."  
  It's stress, not germs, part II.  
  The latest on "inflammation."  
  Why many nutritional claims make no sense  
  The use of hypotheticals in science.  
  What "viral infections" really do to the body.  
  What determines longevity?  
  An example of an anti-"saturated fat" study that is flawed.  
  A Rough Guide to a Gentle Diet.  
  A unified "AIDS" hypothsis without "HIV."  
  A unified "AIDS" hypothsis without "HIV." Part II.  
  Okay, so when is this diet going to kill me?  
  Scientific Debate Forum Pictures  
  The EFA Claim Was Refuted Long Ago  
    
  
  
  Tools  
 
All Message Boards : My recent "experiment" with carrageenan.
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
 Message 1 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrect  (Original Message)Sent: 5/7/2008 12:39 AM
I avoid products with carrageenan, due to what I've read about its effects on the gut, for example:

"...A recent publication[16] indicates that carrageenan induces inflammation in human intestinal epithelial cells in tissue culture through a BCL10-mediated pathway that leads to activation of NFkappaB and IL-8. Carrageenan may be immunogenic due to its unusual alpha-1,3-galactosidic link that is part of its disaccharide unit structure. Consumption of carrageenan may have a role in intestinal inflammation and possibly inflammatory bowel disease, since BCL10 resembles NOD2, mutations of which are associated with genetic proclivity to Crohn's Disease..."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrageenan

I hadn't eaten in a restaurant for years, because they don't tell you what's in the food and also because there was a time several years ago when I always developed a food poisoning type of problem when I ate at restaurants. Recently, I decided to do an "experiment." I took a spoon that was sealed in plastic and ate two scoops of ice cream at a local restaurant. Just about all ice cream here in the USA now has carrageenan in it, and this gives it a thick, "smooth," and almost spongy quality. The ice cream I used to eat, without any such "binders," had a very different consistency. The ice cream I ate at the restaurant was very spongy and thick. Not long after leaving the restaurant, I noticed that my throat felt like it can after having some acid reflux, but it persisted until the next day. The next day I had to run to the bathroom - my body wanted this stuff out of me, apparently. I did nothing, nor ate nothing different, other than going to this restaurant and eating two scoops of ice cream. I was quite surprised there was such a noticeable reaction, but I'm certainly glad I've been avoiding carrageenan.


First  Previous  2-7 of 7  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamegos2uSent: 5/7/2008 2:10 PM
Hmmm...makes me wonder if there's any carrageenan in the shakes they serve at fast food restaurants.  I have Crohn's Disease (an inflammatory bowel disorder), and I've noticed that whenever I have a fast-food shake (even Jack in the Box, where they boast about having "real" shakes,) I start to feel run-down almost immediately, and within a few hours I've got diarrhea so bad you'd think the shake was spiked with Ex-Lax.
 
If I have more than two in the same week, I'll usually start having chronic problems with my Crohn's -- abdominal pain, diarrhea, gas, bloating, fistulae, the whole nine yards.
 
I still buy store-bought ice cream from time to time, and that doesn't seem to bother me much in moderation, but I've started making my own homemade ice cream more and more often lately -- I don't know if it's any healthier than storebought, but goddamn is it ever tasty!
 
--- Gos
"Nobody here but us heretics..."

Reply
 Message 3 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 5/7/2008 5:19 PM
The only way you can tell is by isolating variables, so you'd have to only buy food with labels, avoiding carrageenan and possibly also the other bean additives that are being put into a lot of dairy products these days (locust, carob, guar, taro, etc.).

Reply
 Message 4 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHIVbollyxSent: 5/13/2008 5:42 AM
Any vegetable or bean gum has the same effect on me. And the more one avoids such additives the more violent the reaction next time you inadvertantly eat it.
They use carrageenan to inflict painful lesions in mouse/rat models of inflammation and pain.

Reply
 Message 5 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametaka00381Sent: 5/14/2008 2:23 PM
At times I got similarly sick after eating beef. After reading the following article (which also shows what else can be done with carrageenan) I suspect the carrageenan could be at play here too. Never know what the shop puts even into the "fresh" and "raw" food.

QUOTE: Carrageenan is a polysaccharide (a high molecular weight sulfated complex carbohydrate) isolated from red algae. It is used in foods, cosmetics, and pharmaceuticals for its emulsification, gelling, and other properties. Often it is injected into meats to help them maintain their moisture content and fresh appearance on the shelf (it also swells the meats up making them look really nice in the supermarket displays) UNQUOTE.

SOURCE: http://www.musclegurus.com/article.php?id=2

Reply
 Message 6 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHIVbollyxSent: 5/18/2008 5:24 AM
Taka that's disgusting but explains a lot. I'm going to have to source ground rabbit for my cat's raw diet, I don't want to use supermarket meat if it has carrageenan - what's the point of my efforts to avoid feeding him grains if they put that gut-damaging crap in the meat?

Reply
 Message 7 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametaka00381Sent: 5/31/2008 9:51 AM
EFAD reduces carrageenan oedema:

J Pharm Pharmacol. 1988 Dec ;40 (12):882-4 2907584 (P,S,E,B) Senna still causes laxation in rats maintained on a diet deficient in essential fatty acids.

N Mascolo, R Meli, G Autore, F Capasso
Department of Experimental Pharmacology, University of Naples, Italy.

The laxative effect of senna has been investigated in normal and essential fatty acid deficient (EFAD) rats. Oral administration of senna pod extract (7-5-90 mg kg-1) produced a dose-dependent increase in the number of soft faeces excreted by normal rats. Senna 30 mg kg-1 also reversed net absorption of water and increased the prostaglandin (PG) production in the colonic lumen of normal rats by about four times. Oral administration of senna pod extract to rats, maintained on a fat-free diet for 30-90 days, produced diarrhoea and reversed net absorption of water as in normal rats. However, a fat-free diet reduced the PG production drastically in the colonic lumen both in senna-free rats and in senna-treated rats. In EFAD rats carrageenan oedema, but not dextran oedema, was also drastically reduced. Since PG mediation is not present in EFAD rats we conclude that the PG are not essential for laxation induced by senna and that water secretion and PG production in the rat intestinal lumen are unrelated.

First  Previous  2-7 of 7  Next  Last 
Return to All Message Boards