MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
The Scientific Debate Forum.Contains "mature" content, but not necessarily adult.[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Disclaimer: Read this page first.  
  Links  
  Messages  
  General  
  Nutrition  
  "Mission Statement."  
  Why the "germ theory" is not science.  
  The Underlying Cause of "Disease."  
  The Scientific Method.  
  How dangerous are bacteria and viruses?  
  The Contributions of Hans Selye and others.  
  How direct effects are often ignored, and indirect markers used  
  Understanding "disease" at the molecular level.  
  Understanding disease at the molecular level, part II.  
  What the "common cold" can teach us about illness.  
  The AA connection to today's common "diseases."  
  How easy the key experiments would be to do.  
  The best practical diet and the explanation for it.  
  Fish oil quotes you might want to read  
  Where the "immune system" fits into this view of "disease."  
  How many 'scientific studies' violate the scientific method  
  Why you have to be careful with antioxidants.  
  Why Cancers today are more aggressive than those of the past.  
  The Latest Evidence.  
  Some studies worthy of note.  
  HSWC "in action."  
  How language can impede science.  
  How language impedes science, part II.  
  More on why "germs" don't cause "disease."  
  How a latent virus actually causes "disease."  
  A new report that "says it all."  
  The science "show" must go on?  
  Odds and ends  
  Some thoughts on a book by Robert Gallo.  
  Saturated fatty acids are the solution, not the problem.  
  It's stress, not "germs" that causes disease.  
  Epidemiology: Facts versus "factoids."  
  It's stress, not germs, part II.  
  The latest on "inflammation."  
  Why many nutritional claims make no sense  
  The use of hypotheticals in science.  
  What "viral infections" really do to the body.  
  What determines longevity?  
  An example of an anti-"saturated fat" study that is flawed.  
  A Rough Guide to a Gentle Diet.  
  A unified "AIDS" hypothsis without "HIV."  
  A unified "AIDS" hypothsis without "HIV." Part II.  
  Okay, so when is this diet going to kill me?  
  Scientific Debate Forum Pictures  
  The EFA Claim Was Refuted Long Ago  
    
  
  
  Tools  
 
Nutrition : "Saturated fat or "red meat" and PUFAs?
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
 Message 1 of 5 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrect  (Original Message)Sent: 4/17/2007 3:57 AM
Since new studies or reports on the dangers of "red meat" (or cured meat) offer an alternative to the "saturated fat is bad" mantra, I decided to create this thread in order to cite the most recent publications:
 
"Our study of screening-detected colorectal adenomas shows that red meat and meat cooked at high temperatures are associated with an increased risk of colorectal adenoma."

Source: Cancer Res. 2005 Sep 1;65(17):8034-41. Meat, meat cooking methods and preservation, and risk for colorectal adenoma. Sinha R, Peters U, Cross AJ, Kulldorff M, Weissfeld JL, Pinsky PF, Rothman N, Hayes RB.

"These data suggest that mutagens such as HCA that form when meat is cooked may be culpable substances in rectal cancer risk, not red meat itself."

Source: J Nutr. 2004 Apr;134(4):776-84. Meat consumption patterns and preparation, genetic variants of metabolic enzymes, and their association with rectal cancer in men and women. Murtaugh MA, Ma KN, Sweeney C, Caan BJ, Slattery ML.

"Red and processed meat intakes were associated with an increased risk of pancreatic cancer. Fat and saturated fat are not likely to contribute to the underlying carcinogenic mechanism because the findings for fat from meat and dairy products differed. Carcinogenic substances related to meat preparation methods might be responsible for the positive association."

Source: J Natl Cancer Inst. 2005 Oct 5;97(19):1458-65. Meat and fat intake as risk factors for pancreatic cancer: the multiethnic cohort study. Nothlings U, Wilkens LR, Murphy SP, Hankin JH, Henderson BE, Kolonel LN.

What these studies don't mention is the role played by dietary PUFAs in this situation, for example:

"Dietary heterocyclic aromatic amines (HCA) and polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) are both believed to play a role in colon carcinogenesis... These results show that COX, and COX-2 in particular, can play a substantial role in HCA activation, especially in extrahepatic tissues like the colon. Furthermore, the obvious interactions between PUFA and HCA in COX-2 expressing cancer cells may be important in modulating colorectal cancer risk."

Source: Mol Carcinog. 2004 Jul;40(3):180-8.

Title: "Effects of polyunsaturated fatty acids on prostaglandin synthesis and cyclooxygenase-mediated DNA adduct formation by heterocyclic aromatic amines in human adenocarcinoma colon cells."

Moonen HJ, Dommels YE, van Zwam M, van Herwijnen MH, Kleinjans JC, Alink GM, de Kok TM.

QUOTE: ...The researchers couldn't explain why eating more animal fat was associated with breast cancer risk. It may be that factors other than fat are involved. For instance, grilling red meat can create cancer-causing chemicals�?Earlier studies had suggested one reason for the increased cancer risk, relating this to the heterocyclic amines (HCAs) that form when red meat is cooked at high temperatures (like frying and grilling), especially well-done. In laboratory studies, HCAs bond to estrogen receptors and create estrogen-like effects. In earlier research with
women past menopause, those who consistently ate hamburger, beef steak and bacon very well done thus getting high levels of HCAs -had more
than four times the breast cancer risk in comparism with women who consumed these meats raw or medium done�?Like many carcinogens, HCAs have to be activated to be able to damage our DNA and pose cancer risk...  UNQUOTE.

Source: http://www.tribune.com.ng/22032007/hlt2.html

QUOTE:  Eating red meat increases a woman’s chance of developing breast cancer, according to new research from the University of Leeds.  The findings are most striking for post-menopausal women �?those with the highest intake of red meat, the equivalent to one portion a day (more than 57 grams) - run a 56 per cent greater risk of breast cancer than those who eat none.  Women who eat the most processed meat, such as bacon, sausages, ham or pies, run a 64 per cent greater risk of breast cancer than those who eat none.  Researchers at the University’s Centre for Epidemiology and Biostatistics have been tracking the eating habits and health of more than 35,000 women for the past seven years, and their latest findings are published in the British Journal of Cancer... UNQUOTE.

Source:  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070407174018.htm

QUOTE:  Frequent consumption of cured meats results in lower lung function test scores and increases the odds of developing chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), according to a large cross-sectional survey of adults in the U.S...  "Cured meats, such as bacon, sausage, luncheon meats and cured hams, are high in nitrites, which are added to meat products as a preservative, an anti-microbial agent, and a color fixative," said Dr. Jiang. "Nitrates generate reactive nitrogen species that may cause damage to the lungs, producing structural changes resembling emphysema."  UNQUOTE.

SOURCE:  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070416074209.htm

Why is "saturated fat" found to be unhealthy in many studies?  Because the researchers usually use lard, which they consider a "saturated fat," even though it is only about 40% saturated fatty acids now.  Another factor is socio-economic, that is, those who lead the unhealthiest lives for a number of reasons (some not related to diet at all) tend to eat more saturated fatty acids, and thus a "correlation" can be determined, and I use this as a great example of why one needs to be so careful when talking about "links," "correlations," and "associations."  If the correlation is consistent with molecular-level evidence, then so be it, but to suggest that molecular-level evidence be ignored because correlations contradict it represents a gross misunderstanding of science. 



First  Previous  2-5 of 5  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 5 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 9/2/2007 7:53 AM
On the site, http://www.coconutoil.com/peer_reviewed.htm, there are many coconut oil studies listed, such as the following:

Source: Clin Biochem. 2004 Sep;37(9):830-5.

Title: Beneficial effects of virgin coconut oil on lipid parameters and in vitro LDL oxidation.

Abstract:

OBJECTIVES: The present study was conducted to investigate the effect of consumption of virgin coconut oil (VCO) on various lipid parameters in comparison with copra oil (CO). In addition, the preventive effect of polyphenol fraction (PF) from test oils on copper induced oxidation of LDL and carbonyl formation was also studied. DESIGN AND METHODS: After 45 days of oil feeding to Sprague-Dawley rats, several lipid parameters and lipoprotein levels were determined. PF was isolated from the oils and its effect on in vitro LDL oxidation was assessed. RESULTS: VCO obtained by wet process has a beneficial effect in lowering lipid components compared to CO. It reduced total cholesterol, triglycerides, phospholipids, LDL, and VLDL cholesterol levels and increased HDL cholesterol in serum and tissues. The PF of virgin coconut oil was also found to be capable of preventing in vitro LDL oxidation with reduced carbonyl formation. CONCLUSION: The results demonstrated the potential beneficiary effect of virgin coconut oil in lowering lipid levels in serum and tissues and LDL oxidation by physiological oxidants. This property of VCO may be attributed to the biologically active polyphenol components present in the oil.

Reply
 Message 3 of 5 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametaka00381Sent: 9/2/2007 1:43 PM
Very good thread but I think we should also present and refute the anti-saturated fat studies to make it even better:
Why are there so high rates of CHD in Singapore? More stress, HFCS, climate, PUFAs or is it the coconut oil afterall?? Also being downwind from a nuclear test site makes a hell of difference ...

Eur J Epidemiol. 2001;17(5):469-77.

Differences in all-cause, cardiovascular and cancer mortality between Hong Kong and Singapore: role of nutrition.

Zhang J, Kesteloot H.
Department of Epidemiology, School of Public
Health, Catholic University of Leuven, Belgium.

BACKGROUND: The majority of inhabitants in Hong Kong
and Singapore are ethnic Chinese, but all-cause and
cardiovascular mortality rates in these two regions
are markedly different. This study describes
differences in the magnitude and trends in mortality
and attempts to explain these differences.

METHODS: Data of mortality rates in 1963-1965 and
1993-1995 in the age class of 45-74 years, dietary
habits and other factors were compared between
Hong Kong and Singapore using Japan, Spain and the USA as reference countries. Mortality and food consumption data were obtained from WHO and FAO, respectively.

RESULTS: Large differences in all-cause and cardiovascular mortality exist between Hong Kong and Singapore. The difference in total cancer mortality was less consistent and smaller. The most pronounced finding was that ischemic heart disease mortality in 1993-1995 was 2.98 and 3.14 times higher in Singapore than in Hong Kong in men and women, respectively. Of the five countries considered, Singapore has the highest all-cause mortality in both sexes in the period of 1960-1995. The ratio of animal to vegetal fat was higher in Singapore (2.24) than in Hong Kong (1.08). Singapore had higher serum concentrations of total cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol than Hong Kong, but the opposite result was observed for high-density lipoprotein cholesterol.

CONCLUSIONS: There are striking differences in all-cause
and cardiovascular mortality between Hong Kong and
Singapore. These differences can be most reasonably and
plausibly explained by their differences in dietary
habits, for example, a higher consumption of coconut and
palm oil, mainly containing saturated fat, in Singapore.

Reply
 Message 4 of 5 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 9/2/2007 11:23 PM
Asians have been switching over to Western diets since at least WW II, so it's something that probably requires more research than I'd like to do on this subject, since I'm more interested in the molecular-level literature. And there is the nuclear testing and other potentially unhealthy issues that might be involved. The person who began that thread on the other newsgroup appears to simply be an ignoramus. The title of his thread, coconut oil kills, is manifestly ridiculous, as the raw demographic data demonstrates beyond any doubt. If he doesn't understand that much, there is little use in trying to explain the evidence to him. I replied mostly for those who might read his post and take him seriously.

Reply
 Message 5 of 5 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 10/11/2007 10:33 PM
QUOTE: ...Cytochrome P450s are members of a very large gene family encoding enzymes that govern the metabolism (known also as phase-1 reactions) of carcinogens and drugs from inactive to highly reactive ( 15). Various cytochromes are involved in the metabolism of carcinogens and procarcinogens found in human diets ( Table 1). For instance, CYP1A1 plays a central role in the metabolism of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons that are found in foods exposed to open flame ( 16). CYP1A2 has affinity for another class of dietary carcinogens, the heterocyclic amines (HCA)3 found in thermally oxidized meat protein... UNQUOTE.

Source:
© 2003 The American Society for Nutritional Sciences J. Nutr. 133:2400S-2403S, July 2003.

On the internet: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/7/2400S#TBL1

First  Previous  2-5 of 5  Next  Last 
Return to Nutrition