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Ask Master Guns : The .380
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Reply
 Message 1 of 3 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamebigazzShooter52  (Original Message)Sent: 4/15/2008 3:49 PM
Hey M.G.
 
Regarding the .380 semi-auto. I like these two guns, but there is a major price difference.  Do you know why, is it better quality?
 
Sig Sauer P232 = $858.00
Walther PPK/S = $573.00
 
BG


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Reply
 Message 2 of 3 in Discussion 
From: MasterGunner02Sent: 4/20/2008 1:38 AM
Of the two pistols you are looking at -- the SIG Arms P-232 or Walther PPK/S in .380 ACP, I would go with the Walther product.  Another gun in this category is the HK4 pistol.  This is a product-improved Mauser HSc from the late 1930's and WW2 era.  The HK4 was marketed as a convertible pistol in four calibers: .22 LR, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, and .380 ACP.  It was also marketed in each of those calibers with the .380 ACP being the more popular choice.
 
Americans consider the 9x19 NATO or 9mm Para/Luger cartridge to be somewhat of a wimp for our tastes, but in Europe the caliber is the ubiquitous pistol and submachine gun caliber.  The 9x19 NATO is considered too powerful for use in the heavily urbanized environment.  Police officers usually carry either the 7.65x17SR (.32 ACP) or 9x17 (.380 ACP) self-loading pistols.  Walther designed its legendary PP (politzei pistole -- police pistol) and PPK (politzei pistole kriminal -- detective police pistol) in the early 1930s about the same time that the P-38 in 9x19 Para was being tested by the German military.  The P-38, a double-action pistol was adopted by the German Armed Forces to replace the older P-08 Luger in 1938.  The PP and PPK were adopted by various German police agencies in the middle and late 1930s.  These pistols were also procured for use by other German government agencies, including the Abwehr (intelligence service) and the Gestapo (secret police) and high ranking German military officers.
 
Almost all Geramn wartime PP and PPK pistols were build in 7.65x17SR (.32 ACP) caliber.  Export models were also offered in 9x17 (.380 ACP).  The PP and PPK models are blowback operated pistols that incorporate a push-button magazine release on the frame; a hammer drop/decocker safety on the left side of the slide; a spring-loaded pin that acts as a loaded chamber indicator so the operator can tell if a round is chambered (by feel).  The difference between the PP and PPK pistols is primarily size; the PPK has a shorter barrel, recoil spring, slide assembly; and frame.  Magazines can be found with either a flat floor plate or a plastic finger extension.  Capacities of the .32 ACP and .380 ACP magazines differ by number of rounds.  A .32 ACP PP model can hold 8+1 and the same caliber PPK holds 7+1; a .380 ACP Model holds 7+1 and and the same caliber PPK holds 6+1.  Of the two calibers, the 9x17 (.380 ACP) is considered the minimal caliber for use in a defensive pistol.
 
Above: Typical Walther PP and PPK controls (from the left and going clockwise) -- the push-button magazine release (just ahead of the grip panel); the decocking safety (DOWN is safe, UP is FIRE); the loaded chamber pin (just above the hammer).  Note that the hammer is notched for an extended chamber loaded pin when the pistol is on safe and the hammer is down as shown.
 
Below: Left, Two blued steel Walther PP pistols.  The upper pistol is in 7.65x17SR (.32 ACP) caliber and the lower pistol is in 9x17 (.380 ACP) caliber.  Right, a Walther PPK pistol in stainless steel, caliber 9x17 (.380 ACP).  Compare the shortened slide, barrel, and frame of the PPK to that of the larger PP model.  Also, the PPK grips are wrap-around one piece plastic and those of the PP are individual grips screwed to the pistol's frame.  All these pistols use the plastic finger extensions on their magazines for better control by the shooter. 
 
 
 
The 1968 Gun Control Act managed to throw a money wrench into the importation of the Walther PPK.  Under this legislation, the BATF imposed a "factoring" criteria that decided whether a gun was "suitable for sporting purposes" or not.  The PPK fell one point short and could no longer be imported.  So, Walther married the PPK slide, recoil spring, and barrel to the PP frame and the hybrid PPK/S was born.  Walther opened a factory of its own in the United States during the 1990s and the original PPK was put back into production because it was domestically produced and not imported.
 
 
Above: Left, a steel Walther PPK/S pistol..  Note the use of the PP frame and PPK slide assembly that distinguishes this pistol.   Right, a Walther PPK/S pistol shown disassembled for cleaning.  The trigger guard hinges down to allow removal of the slide from the pistol after the magazine has been removed.  The recoil spring stays attached to the barrel as shown until removed.  The tab at the bottom of the grip is a lanyard loop.  PP, PPK, and PPK/S pistols can be found with or without the lanyard loop as preferred by the customer.  The Walther pistols remain in production in the USA to this day.
 
SIG-Sauer (or SIG Arms as it is known in the U.S.)  developed the P232 pistol as a direct compeditor to Walther's PP, PPK, and PPK/S.  Production of the pistol was from 1977 through 1996.  The gun is made from stainless steel and usually found in either .32 ACP or .380 ACP calibers.  Capacity of the P232 is the same as that of the Walther PP in .32 ACP or .380 ACP.  The pistol is blowback operated like the Walther, but the controls are located in different positions than the Walther.
 
 
 
Above: A SIG Arms P232 pistol in caliber .380 ACP (9x17) in stainless steel with plastic wrap-around grips.  In the left photo, the SIG's extractor mounts at the rear of the ejection port on the slide.  The extractor has a hump that can be felt to act as a loaded chamber indicator with a round in the chamber.  The magazine release is the silver lever at the bottom of the pistol grip in the European tradition.  (Americans do not like this arrangement usually and prefer the push-button of the Walther as more convenient and natural.)  There are two levers attached to the left side of the frame (right photo).  The lever at the front of the left side is the takedown lever to strip the pistol for cleaning and maintenance.  The lever to the rear is the decocking safety that lowers the hammer and disconnects the trigger when applied.  (The slide mounted safety on the Walther works exactly the same way.)
 
Below: The Heckler & Koch Model 4 pistol.  The gun is a product-improved version of the Mauser HSc pistol used in pre-war and wartime Germany.  The pistol on the left is a .380 ACP (9x17) caliber gun.  The controls are a mix of the Walther's (slide-mounted safety) and SIG's (magazine release).  The dismount latch for the Model 4 is located inside the trigger guard above the trigger.  The right photo shows the Model 4 along with the conversion parts for four calibers: .22 LR, .25 ACP (6.35x16SR), .32 ACP (7.65x17SR), and .380 ACP (9x17).  H&K produced the Model 4 for sale in the U.S. between 1968 and 1986.  The pistol is most commonly found in either .32 ACP or .380 ACP.
 
 
 
The question is which one to choose.  I would give the nod to the Walther at the price you indicated.  However, I think that you can do better if you search the Internet for any of these guns.  They are all rough equivalents of each other and will work just fine as intended.  The price is important because you will need to buy spare magazines for the pistol.  (Bare minimum is 3 + 1 that is in the pistol.)  The Walthers are more common than either the SIG or the H&K products so that may also be a factor, and both the SIG and H&K are now out of production.  I would look for a good, used pistol of this type rather than buy new or NOS (new, old stock).  Pistols of this caliber do not get that many rounds put through them as a rule and you can maybe find some good deals.  Use the money you safe to by magazines and ammo!
 

 

 

Reply
 Message 3 of 3 in Discussion 
From: MasterGunner02Sent: 4/20/2008 1:45 AM
Darn!  MSN dropped out the H&K Model 4 photo.  Here it is again.