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From:

HOTWILLY (Original Message)

Sent: 2007/02/03 02:44 AM

I am trying to trace my GORMAN family back to Ireland from Wigan, Lancashire England.

The last known GORMAN that I have information about is my GGGrandfather, MICHAEL GORMAN. He died on 6 MAR 1878 at the Wigan Workhouse, Wigan, Lancashire, England at the age of 25. This means MICHAEL GORMAN was born ±1853. But where was he born? Family Lore says Michael was born in Wigan, Lancashire, England, but there is no record of his birth in or around Wigan ± 5 years either side of 1853.

MICHAEL GORMAN married MARGARET DORAN in the last Q of 1875 at the Wigan Register. They had one child: STEPHEN GORMAN, born 20 JUN 1879. After MICHAEL GORMAN died in 1878, MARY DORAN-GORMAN married Thomas DOYLE in 1882 at the Wigan Register. MARY DORAN-GORMAN-DOYLE died at Wigan in 1914.

Now you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that if MICHAEL GORMAN died on 6 MAR 1878 and his son STEPHEN GORMAN was born on 20 JUN 1879 ... then there is 15 months between the death of the father and the birth of the son!

What perplexes me is the birthdate of STEPHEN GORMAN. I found this date: 20 JUN 1878 in his obituary, but I can't find it ANYWHERE in the official records for the Wigan area ± 5 Years either side of 1878.

QUESTIONS:

Can someone find these records:

1. birth record of MICHAEL GORMAN ± 5 years either side of 1853.

2. birth record of his son STEPHEN GORMAN in or around Wigan ± 5 years either side of 20 JUN 1878.

3. Can this family be traced back to Ireland with this information?

Here is further information about STEPHEN GORMAN:

Stephen GORMAN
b. 20 JUN 1878 (?), Wigan, Lancashire, England
d. 30 AUG 1930, Providence, Rhode Island, USA
Married Annie POMFRET, DEC 1899, St. Thomas & St. James, Poolstock, Lancashire, England
b. 20 JUL 1877, Wigan, Lancashire, England
d. 18 FEB 1965, East Providence, Rhode Island

Thanks in advance!

BILL DORGAN
[email protected]

From: dechdi in response to Message 1

Sent: 2007/02/04 09:58 PM

My Gorman family lived in Connecticut

Carol

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>Subject: GORMAN: Tracing Backwards from Wigan, Lancashire to Ireland.
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From: dechdi in response to Message 1

Sent: 2007/02/11 12:18 PM

Hi Bill, my cousin, is a GORMAN, his father was Howard Gorman, I know he has worked extensively on his ancestry, I will email him to get some particulars to present to you.

Howard Gorman born early 1900's and married my father's sister Mary Burley/Burleigh b. 8/11/1906

Carol T.

From: dechdi in response to Message 1

Sent: 2007/02/11 12:22 PM

Frequently families name their children family given names, my Howard Gorman and Mary named their children

Stephen H.

Thomas P.

Patricia

Virginia

David

Kathaleen

Robert and

Mary Jane

From:

HOTWILLY (Original Message)

Sent: 2007/06/25 06:31 AM

Dear HELPERS!

My GG Grandfather MICHAEL GORMAN, the son of STEPHEN GORMAN, died of typhoid fever at the Wigan Union Workhouse, Wigan, Lancashire, England on 3 March 1878. He was only 25. If his age at the time of his death is correct, MICHAEL GORMAN was born ± 1853.

His wife, MARGARET DORAN, signed the death certificate, No. 442, with her “X�?and it was registered 4 March 1878 by Robert Halliwell, Registrar: Wigan: Volume 8c Page 37. I have a copy of this death certificate.

At the time of his death he gave his address as 22 Victoria Street, Wigan.

He married MARGARET DORAN (1853-1923), daughter of MICHAEL DORAN and MARY GORE, at St. Joseph's Catholic Church, Wigan on 7 November 1875.

The marriage certificate of MARGARET DORAN and MICHAEL GORMAN reads:

"Married (7 November 1875) in the St. Joseph's Church, according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Catholic Church by Certificate by HENRY J. LAMON. Witnesses GEORGE DALY and ALICE DORAN (Margaret's sister). JAMES JOLLEY, Registrar�?BR>
MICHAEL GORMAN signed his own name and MARGARET DORAN signed with her "X". GEORGE DALY signed his own name and ALICE DORAN signed with her "X".

The marriage certificate states that:

MICHAEL GORMAN was 23, Bachelor, Coal Miner, residence: Queens Hotel Yard, Wallgate, Wigan. Father: STEPHEN GORMAN, Laborer.

MARGARET DORAN was 24, Spinster, Cotton Factory Worker, residence: Miry Lane, Wigan. Father: MICHAEL DORAN, Colliery Laborer

The marriage record of Michael Gorman and Margaret Doran can be found in the GRO Index: Wigan 8c 152 and also at the Wigan & Leigh Register: ROW/41/198.

I have a copy of the marriage certificate.

MICHAEL GORMAN and MARGARET DORAN had one son: STEPHEN GORMAN, born 20 June 1878 at Wigan.

I had no success trying to find the birth record of STEPHEN GORMAN until I discovered that STEPHEN GORMAN was registered as MICHAEL GORMAN!

Later his mother (or he himself) changed his name to STEPHEN GORMAN. This was never done legally. It just happened. I don't know why this happened except that his mother gave birth to him on 20 June 1878 just 3 months after his father died on 3 March 1878. She decided to register him after his recently deceased father, MICHAEL GORMAN.

By later changing his name to STEPHEN GORMAN he was following the Irish naming pattern, i.e., the first born male is named after the paternal grandfather. In this case, his grandfather was named STEPHEN GORMAN (as was indicated on the marriage certificate of his parents).

With regard to MARGARET DORAN (1853-1923):

There are two 1853 birth records in Wigan for MARGARET DORAN: Wigan & Leigh Register: WIG/48/420 (June) and MARGARET DORAN, Wigan & Leigh Register: WIG/38/5 1853 (September).

According to the 1861 UK Census MARGARET DORAN lived with her family at 22 John Street, Scholes, Wigan:

Michael Doran, 35, born Ireland, Factory Operative
Mary, 30, wife, born Ireland, Factory Operative
David, Son, 10, born Wigan, Factory Operative
Margaret, Daughter, 8, born Wigan
Alice, Daughter, 6, born Wigan
Catherine, Daughter, 2, born Wigan.
(Another son, Michael, died shortly after birth 25 May 1858).

According to the 1871 UK Census MARGARET DORAN lived with her family at 4 Waddingstons Buildings, Queen Street, Wigan:

Michael Doran, 47, Stripper & Grinder, Cotton Mill, b. Ireland
Mary Doran, 46, b. Wigan, Lancashire
Margaret Doran, 18, Throstle Spinner, Cotton Mill, b. Wigan, Lancashire
Alice Doran, 14, Throstle Spinner, Cotton Mill, b. Wigan, Lancashire
Catherine Doran, 12, Cardroom Hand, Cotton Mill, b. Wigan, Lancashire
John Doran, 9, Scholar, b. Wigan, Lancashire
Mary Doran, 6, Scholar, b. Wigan, Lancashire

After MICHAEL GORMAN died, MARGARET DORAN and her son MICHAEL (STEPHEN) GORMAN moved back to the home of her parents MICHAEL DORAN and MARY GORE.

According to the 1881 UK Census, after the death of her husband, MICHAEL GORMAN, MARGARET DORAN moved back to her father's house at 12 Farriminch Row, Wigan:

Michael Doran, Head, age 56, Labourer, born Ireland
Mary Doran, Wife, age 57, born Wigan, Lancashire
Alice Doran, Dau., age 25, Cotton Operative, born Wigan
Catherine Doran, Dau., age 22, Cotton Operative, born Wigan
John Doran, Son, age 19, Cotton Operative, born Wigan
Mary Doran, Dau., age 16, Cotton Operative, born Wigan
Margaret Gorman, Dau., age 25, Cotton Operative, born Wigan
Stephen Gorman, age 2, Grandson

MARGARET DORAN married a second time to THOMAS DOYLE on 21 January 1882, again at St. Joseph's Catholic Church, Wigan. This marriage is recorded at GRO: 8C 125 and at Wigan-Leigh registry: ROW/55/5. Witnesses: John Melling and Catherine Welding, Priest: Edward Grennan. Registrar: James Jolley.

THOMAS DOYLE was 36 and a widower. He lived at 31 Clayton Street, Wigan. He was an Overlooker in a Cotton factory. MARGARET DORAN-GORMAN was 30 and a widow. She lived at Farriminch Row, Wallgate, Wigan. She was a Cotton factory worker.

MARGARET DORAN and THOMAS DOYLE had one known child: THOMAS DOYLE (b. 1882: WIgan)

According to the 1891 UK Census, MARGARET DORAN-GORMAN-DOYLE and her two children, STEPHEN GORMAN AND THOMAS DOYLE lived in a two room flat at 9 Wallgate (Big Lamp), Wigan. Her second husband, THOMAS DOYLE died 12 March 1886 at the age of 40. Margaret was a widow for the second time. Her marriage to THOMAS DOYLE lasted 3 years and 10 months.

MARGARET DORAN and THOMAS DOYLE had two children: THOMAS DOYLE, born 1882 and JOHN DOYLE, born 1886, the year his father died! According to the 1891 UK Census, JOHN DOYLE, age 4, may have gone to live with his mother's sister, CATHERINE DORAN who was married to MARK KEILTY (or other spellings, maybe KELLY). They lived at 44 Adeleade Street, Wigan.

According to the 1901 UK Census, MARGARET DORAN-GORMAN-DOYLE lived at 25 Lyons Street, Wigan with her sons THOMAS DOYLE, 19, Colliery Spinner and JOHN DOYLE, age 7. THOMAS DOYLE, SR., died in 1886, so how could JOHN DOYLE, age 7, be his son if JOHN DOYLE was born ± 1894? This must be a transcription error.

MARGARET DORAN died 27 July 1923 and is buried in the Wigan Cemetery, Lower Ince. (I need to verify if this is our MARGARET DORAN!)

With regard to MICHAEL GORMAN:

There are no births recorded in Wigan for a MICHAEL GORMAN from 1845-1855.

There are, however, two births for MICHAEL GORMAN near Wigan but NOT in 1853. They are recorded in 1851 and 1855 in Ashton. I believe Ashton is an alternative name for Ashton- under-Lyne and it spans the boundaries of the counties of Cheshire and Lancashire:

Births Sep 1851:
Gorman Michael Ashton XX 67
Births Sep 1855
Gorman Michael Ashton 8d 352

There is one birth for a MICHAEL GORMAN recorded in Liverpool in 1852, one in 1853, and two births in 1855 ... but none of these births state the father is STEPHEN GORMAN.

STEPHEN GORMAN was the name MICHAEL GORMAN gave for his father at the time of his marriage to MARGARET DORAN on 7 November 1875.

QUESTIONS:

1. CAN SOMEONE FIND THE BIRTH RECORD OF MICHAEL GORMAN ± 1853?

2. CAN SOMEONE FIND MICHAEL GORMAN ON THE 1861 AND 1871 UK CENSUS?

3. CAN SOMEONE FIND THE BIRTH, MARRIAGE OR DEATH RECORD OF STEPHEN GORMAN, THE FATHER OF MICHAEL GORMAN?

4. CAN SOMEONE FIND THE ABOVE STEPHEN GORMAN ON ANY UK CENSUS?

Thanks a million for your help,

BILL DORGAN

P.S.
I hope I can tear down this brick wall but I am beginning to suspect that MICHAEL GORMAN (1853-1878) and his father, STEPHEN GORMAN, may have been born in Ireland.

language=javascript>var bMB=true;</SCRIPT>

From:

mickym1951 in response to Message 1

Sent: 2007/06/25 07:40 AM

Hi Bill The Census Quotes Born in york leeds,This Section is from The Workhouse,Quotes he was an Excavator Navvy,Worked on the Roads Etc.This is from 1881 census

Mike

Michael GORMAN Household
 Male

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Information:
 Birth Year <1853>
 Birthplace Leeds, York, England
 Age 28
 Occupation Excavator (Navvy)
 Marital Status U <Unmarried>
 Head of Household Richard HOLDEN
 Relation Inmate
 Disability

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source Information:
 Institution "Union Workhouse" Halifax Yorkshire
 Census Place Halifax, York, England
 Family History Library Film 1342054
 Public Records Office Reference RG11
 Piece / Folio 4408 / 114

From:

mickym1951 in response to Message 2

Sent: 2007/06/25 07:58 AM

Hi Bill, Only one who shows up being born in Wigan

Births Jun 1878 (>99%)
Gorman	Michael		Wigan	8c	74

Ok i checked out Census

and you get this one

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
James GORMAN   Head   M   Male   38   Rosscommon Co, Ireland   Dock Labr
Patrick GORMAN   Brother   M   Male   33   Rosscommon Co, Ireland   Dock Labr
Michael GORMAN   Brother   U   Male   27   Lpool, Lancashire, England   Freight Clerk
Catherine ONIEL   Sister   M   Female   25   Lpool, Lancashire, England   Wife Of Labr In Distillery
Thomas GORMAN   Broth   U   Male   23   Lpool, Lancashire, England   Corn Mill Labr
Michael ONIEL   Broth In Law   M   Male   27   Wexford Co, Ireland   Labr In Distillery Man Cher
Michael ONIEL   Nephew      Male   2   Lpool, Lancashire, England
Ellen FLANAGAN   Servant      Female   10   Waterloo, Lancashire, England   Scholar

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 163 Athol St
Census Place Liverpool, Lancashire, England

But no birth,For Wigan.But one year Difference

Mike

I have filed your latest messages together with your other Gorman messages, still on the G surname board. To locate them, go to G board and click "Prev 20".

Hi Bill,One Suggestion That makes Sense on This is To contact Wigan Library,And see When he was first on The Electoral lists.It may hold a clue as to when he was first in wigan and if his Name is Correct.I hope you dont mind me mentioning this.We will hold his file open And see if Anything else can be found for you.I have Checked Out various Sites etc But only one I find for the birth year was in liverpool in 1853.This is on Free Bmd.This you have probably already checked out

Hi Bill It is from LDS so would be 1881,But It Could be that It was added by a submitter

Hi Bill,This Is site for Library,But it is worth Emailing them If they have an Address.The thing is the library usually hold the Electoral lists.And Hopefully would Have When he first registered.Or if he used a different Name.It may be that he Was using his second name.Maybe this is why we cant find him.I know its a longshot Bill but It must be worth giving it a go

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English and Irish Family Search	[email protected]