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Old Geek's : Framing the issues:How conservatives use language to dominate politics/Old Geek
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From: Aprilborn  (Original Message)Sent: 1/11/2004 11:06 PM
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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR>  (Original Message) Sent: 12/25/2003 1:33 PM
George Lakoff Linguistics professor George Lakoff at the Free Speech Movement Café. (BAP photos)

Framing the issues: UC Berkeley professor George Lakoff tells how conservatives use language to dominate politics

By Bonnie Azab Powell, NewsCenter | 27 October 2003

BERKELEY �?With Republicans controlling the Senate, the House, and the White House and enjoying a large margin of victory for California Governor-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's clear that the Democratic Party is in crisis. George Lakoff, a UC Berkeley professor of linguistics and cognitive science, thinks he knows why. Conservatives have spent decades defining their ideas, carefully choosing the language with which to present them, and building an infrastructure to communicate them, says Lakoff.

The work has paid off: by dictating the terms of national debate, conservatives have put progressives firmly on the defensive.

In 2000 Lakoff and seven other faculty members from Berkeley and UC Davis joined together to found the Rockridge Institute, one of the only progressive think tanks in existence in the U.S. The institute offers its expertise and research on a nonpartisan basis to help progressives understand how best to get their messages across. The Richard & Rhoda Goldman Distinguished Professor in the College of Letters & Science, Lakoff is the author of "Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think," first published in 1997 and reissued in 2002, as well as several other books on how language affects our lives. He is taking a sabbatical this year to write three books �?none about politics �?and to work on several Rockridge Institute research projects.

In a long conversation over coffee at the Free Speech Movement Café, he told the NewsCenter's Bonnie Azab Powell why the Democrats "just don't get it," why Schwarzenegger won the recall election, and why conservatives will continue to define the issues up for debate for the foreseeable future.

Why was the Rockridge Institute created, and how do you define its purpose?

I got tired of cursing the newspaper every morning. I got tired of seeing what was going wrong and not being able to do anything about it.

The background for Rockridge is that conservatives, especially conservative think tanks, have framed virtually every issue from their perspective. They have put a huge amount of money into creating the language for their worldview and getting it out there. Progressives have done virtually nothing. Even the new Center for American Progress, the think tank that John Podesta [former chief of staff for the Clinton administration] is setting up, is not dedicated to this at all. I asked Podesta who was going to do the Center's framing. He got a blank look, thought for a second and then said, "You!" Which meant they haven't thought about it at all. And that's the problem. Liberals don't get it. They don't understand what it is they have to be doing.

Rockridge's job is to reframe public debate, to create balance from a progressive perspective. It's one thing to analyze language and thought, it's another thing to create it. That's what we're about. It's a matter of asking 'What are the central ideas of progressive thought from a moral perspective?'

How does language influence the terms of political debate?

Language always comes with what is called "framing." Every word is defined relative to a conceptual framework. If you have something like "revolt," that implies a population that is being ruled unfairly, or assumes it is being ruled unfairly, and that they are throwing off their rulers, which would be considered a good thing. That's a frame.


'Conservatives understand what unites them, and they understand how to talk about it, and they are constantly updating their research on how best to express their ideas.'
-George Lakoff

If you then add the word "voter" in front of "revolt," you get a metaphorical meaning saying that the voters are the oppressed people, the governor is the oppressive ruler, that they have ousted him and this is a good thing and all things are good now. All of that comes up when you see a headline like "voter revolt" �?something that most people read and never notice. But these things can be affected by reporters and very often, by the campaign people themselves.

Here's another example of how powerful framing is. In Arnold Schwarzenegger's acceptance speech, he said, "When the people win, politics as usual loses." What's that about? Well, he knows that he's going to face a Democratic legislature, so what he has done is frame himself and also Republican politicians as the people, while framing Democratic politicians as politics as usual �?in advance. The Democratic legislators won't know what hit them. They're automatically framed as enemies of the people.

Why do conservatives appear to be so much better at framing?

Because they've put billions of dollars into it. Over the last 30 years their think tanks have made a heavy investment in ideas and in language. In 1970, [Supreme Court Justice] Lewis Powell wrote a fateful memo to the National Chamber of Commerce saying that all of our best students are becoming anti-business because of the Vietnam War, and that we needed to do something about it. Powell's agenda included getting wealthy conservatives to set up professorships, setting up institutes on and off campus where intellectuals would write books from a conservative business perspective, and setting up think tanks. He outlined the whole thing in 1970. They set up the Heritage Foundation in 1973, and the Manhattan Institute after that. [There are many others, including the American Enterprise Institute and the Hoover Institute at Stanford, which date from the 1940s.]

And now, as the New York Times Magazine quoted Paul Weyrich, who started the Heritage Foundation, they have 1,500 conservative radio talk show hosts. They have a huge, very good operation, and they understand their own moral system. They understand what unites conservatives, and they understand how to talk about it, and they are constantly updating their research on how best to express their ideas.

Why haven't progressives done the same thing?

There's a systematic reason for that. You can see it in the way that conservative foundations and progressive foundations work. Conservative foundations give large block grants year after year to their think tanks. They say, 'Here's several million dollars, do what you need to do.' And basically, they build infrastructure, they build TV studios, hire intellectuals, set aside money to buy a lot of books to get them on the best-seller lists, hire research assistants for their intellectuals so they do well on TV, and hire agents to put them on TV. They do all of that. Why? Because the conservative moral system, which I analyzed in "Moral Politics," has as its highest value preserving and defending the "strict father" system itself. And that means building infrastructure. As businessmen, they know how to do this very well.

Meanwhile, liberals' conceptual system of the "nurturant parent" has as its highest value helping individuals who need help. The progressive foundations and donors give their money to a variety of grassroots organizations. They say, 'We're giving you $25,000, but don't waste a penny of it. Make sure it all goes to the cause, don't use it for administration, communication, infrastructure, or career development.' So there's actually a structural reason built into the worldviews that explains why conservatives have done better.

Back up for a second and explain what you mean by the strict father and nurturant parent frameworks.

Well, the progressive worldview is modeled on a nurturant parent family. Briefly, it assumes that the world is basically good and can be made better and that one must work toward that. Children are born good; parents can make them better. Nurturing involves empathy, and the responsibility to take care of oneself and others for whom we are responsible. On a larger scale, specific policies follow, such as governmental protection in form of a social safety net and government regulation, universal education (to ensure competence, fairness), civil liberties and equal treatment (fairness and freedom), accountability (derived from trust), public service (from responsibility), open government (from open communication), and the promotion of an economy that benefits all and functions to promote these values, which are traditional progressive values in American politics.

The conservative worldview, the strict father model, assumes that the world is dangerous and difficult and that children are born bad and must be made good. The strict father is the moral authority who supports and defends the family, tells his wife what to do, and teaches his kids right from wrong. The only way to do that is through painful discipline �?physical punishment that by adulthood will become internal discipline. The good people are the disciplined people. Once grown, the self-reliant, disciplined children are on their own. Those children who remain dependent (who were spoiled, overly willful, or recalcitrant) should be forced to undergo further discipline or be cut free with no support to face the discipline of the outside world.

George Lakoff
'Taxes are what you pay to be an American, to live in a civilized society that is democratic and offers opportunity, and where there's an infrastructure that has been paid for by previous taxpayers.'
-George Lakoff
So, project this onto the nation and you see that to the right wing, the good citizens are the disciplined ones �?those who have already become wealthy or at least self-reliant �?and those who are on the way. Social programs, meanwhile, "spoil" people by giving them things they haven't earned and keeping them dependent. The government is there only to protect the nation, maintain order, administer justice (punishment), and to provide for the promotion and orderly conduct of business. In this way, disciplined people become self-reliant. Wealth is a measure of discipline. Taxes beyond the minimum needed for such government take away from the good, disciplined people rewards that they have earned and spend it on those who have not earned it.

From that framework, I can see why Schwarzenegger appealed to conservatives.

Exactly. In the strict father model, the big thing is discipline and moral authority, and punishment for those who do something wrong. That comes out very clearly in the Bush administration's foreign and domestic policy. With Schwarzenegger, it's in his movies: most of the characters that he plays exemplify that moral system. He didn't have to say a word! He just had to stand up there, and he represents Mr. Discipline. He knows what's right and wrong, and he's going to take it to the people. He's not going to ask permission, or have a discussion, he's going to do what needs to be done, using force and authority. His very persona represents what conservatives are about.

You've written a lot about "tax relief" as a frame. How does it work?

The phrase "Tax relief" began coming out of the White House starting on the very day of Bush's inauguration. It got picked up by the newspapers as if it were a neutral term, which it is not. First, you have the frame for "relief." For there to be relief, there has to be an affliction, an afflicted party, somebody who administers the relief, and an act in which you are relieved of the affliction. The reliever is the hero, and anybody who tries to stop them is the bad guy intent on keeping the affliction going. So, add "tax" to "relief" and you get a metaphor that taxation is an affliction, and anybody against relieving this affliction is a villain.

"Tax relief" has even been picked up by the Democrats. I was asked by the Democratic Caucus in their tax meetings to talk to them, and I told them about the problems of using tax relief. The candidates were on the road. Soon after, Joe Lieberman still used the phrase tax relief in a press conference. You see the Democrats shooting themselves in the foot.

So what should they be calling it?

It's not just about what you call it, if it's the same "it." There's actually a whole other way to think about it. Taxes are what you pay to be an American, to live in a civilized society that is democratic and offers opportunity, and where there's an infrastructure that has been paid for by previous taxpayers. This is a huge infrastructure. The highway system, the Internet, the TV system, the public education system, the power grid, the system for training scientists �?vast amounts of infrastructure that we all use, which has to be maintained and paid for. Taxes are your dues �?you pay your dues to be an American. In addition, the wealthiest Americans use that infrastructure more than anyone else, and they use parts of it that other people don't. The federal justice system, for example, is nine-tenths devoted to corporate law. The Securities and Exchange Commission and all the apparatus of the Commerce Department are mainly used by the wealthy. And we're all paying for it.

So taxes could be framed as an issue of patriotism.

It is an issue of patriotism! Are you paying your dues, or are you trying to get something for free at the expense of your country? It's about being a member. People pay a membership fee to join a country club, for which they get to use the swimming pool and the golf course. But they didn't pay for them in their membership. They were built and paid for by other people and by this collectivity. It's the same thing with our country �?the country as country club, being a member of a remarkable nation. But what would it take to make the discussion about that? Every Democratic senator and all of their aides and every candidate would have to learn how to talk about it that way. There would have to be a manual. Republicans have one. They have a guy named Frank Luntz, who puts out a 500-page manual every year that goes issue by issue on what the logic of the position is from the Republican side, what the other guys' logic is, how to attack it, and what language to use.

What are some other examples of issues that progressives should try to reframe?

There are too many examples, that's the problem. The so-called energy crisis in California should have been called Grand Theft. It was theft, it was the result of deregulation by Pete Wilson, and Davis should have said so from the beginning.

Or take gay marriage, which the right has made a rallying topic. Surveys have been done that say Americans are overwhelmingly against gay marriage. Well, the same surveys show that they also overwhelmingly object to discrimination against gays. These seem to be opposite facts, but they're not. "Marriage" is about sex. When you say "gay marriage," it becomes about gay sex, and approving of gay marriage becomes implicitly about approving of gay sex. And while a lot of Americans don't approve of gay sex, that doesn't mean they want to discriminate against gay people. Perfectly rational position. Framed in that way, the issue of gay marriage will get a lot of negative reaction. But what if you make the issue "freedom to marry," or even better, "the right to marry"? That's a whole different story. Very few people would say they did not support the right to marry who you choose. But the polls don't ask that question, because the right wing has framed that issue.

Do any of the Democratic Presidential candidates grasp the importance of framing?

None. They don't get it at all. But they're in a funny position. The framing changes that have to be made are long-term changes. The conservatives understood this in 1973. By 1980 they had a candidate, Ronald Reagan, who could take all this stuff and run with it. The progressives don't have a candidate now who understands these things and can talk about them. And in order for a candidate to be able to talk about them, the ideas have to be out there. You have to be able to reference them in a sound bite. Other people have to put these ideas into the public domain, not politicians. The question is, How do you get these ideas out there? There are all kinds of ways, and one of the things the Rockridge Institute is looking at is talking to advocacy groups, which could do this very well. They have more of a budget, they're spread all over the place, and they have access to the media.

Right now the Democrat Party is into marketing. They pick a number of issues like prescription drugs and Social Security and ask which ones sell best across the spectrum, and they run on those issues. They have no moral perspective, no general values, no identity. People vote their identity, they don't just vote on the issues, and Democrats don't understand that. Look at Schwarzenegger, who says nothing about the issues. The Democrats ask, How could anyone vote for this guy? They did because he put forth an identity. Voters knew who he is.

 


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From: AprilbornSent: 1/11/2004 11:06 PM
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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 1:49 PM
Conseiller  Message 29 sur 53 dans la discussion 
De : <NOBR>Surnom MSNCatherine-----------</NOBR> Envoyé : 2003-11-08 17:49

born evil ? I don't believe in such things. The word Evil means to me of the mark of Reality, assuming erronously what is. So we are all born of the mark, the CEO as well as you and me.

As i see it we come to this world with a blank sheet at birth, everything that is we learn at first from our parents and so on.The early years in childhood are very important in shaping our views of the world. This can be of a positive nature with the outcome that children are confident and balanced, or in case of the opposite have effects that shape children’s attitude to becoming bullies or with little confidence in their own abilities..

Children that are balanced and confident with a right kind of respect for others are a great blessing to their parents.

 been made evil ? Of course we can persist in erroneous ways specialy when that erroneous way give a boost to our Ego. One erroneous way is seeing ourselves as strictly beeing born with individualist instincts in pursuit of individualistic selfish interrests as the sole source of happiness.

Naturally, humility would be the antidote to this.

Many cultural beliefs religious and academia speculations are based on those erroneous premises about human's nature.

But do not most religions teach that being selfish is wrong?

if yes, by whom ? In the case of our CEO, we can assume that his curriculum must have include studying economic theories based on the concept of "homo economicus" being driven by rationality, selfishness and greed.

I think that selfishness and greed is irrational in the long run, for once the earth is polluted by the greed thereof, the rich will suffer likewise.

or, because he is stupid ? Who wants to argue with success. If the CEO is successfull in applying those theories in his trade he will be stupid not to believe in them. My line of stupidity will arise when that CEO will persit in those theories when they don't deliver in his own personal pursuit of happiness. We never hear much about CEOs personnal pursuit of happiness so I can't tell much about them being stupid or not.

Geek success isn't really the issue as such, but the irrational measurment and abuse of it...

"An CEO fires 100 workers that costed an average 40,000 $/year for an annual economy of 4,000,000 $/year and give himself a raise of 2,000,000 $/year for a total economy of 2,000,000 $/year to the company. Is that fair?"

Maybe he has been disadvantaged by learning this "attitude" in his family and doesn’t see anything wrong in it?

Thank you for your reply Geek, I'll address the rest a bit later.


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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 1:50 PM
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De : <NOBR>Surnom MSNCatherine-----------</NOBR> Envoyé : 2003-11-09 06:01

An Elected Legislature

Those who talk about the peoples of our day being given up to robbery and similar vices will find that they are all due to the fact that those who ruled them behaved in like manner.

Niccolo Machiavelli, The Discourses, III

http://www.transparency.org/sourcebook/06.pdf


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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 1:50 PM
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De : <NOBR>Surnom MSNCatherine-----------</NOBR> Envoyé : 2003-11-09 08:16

The conservative worldview, the strict father model, assumes that the world is dangerous and difficult and that children are born bad and must be made good.

This could translate into the original sin theory, which is preached by mainline Christian religions , thus heaven and hell theories to keep the fear alive ...

The strict father is the moral authority who supports and defends the family, tells his wife what to do, and teaches his kids right from wrong. The only way to do that is through painful discipline - physical punishment that by adulthood will become internal discipline. The good people are the disciplined people. Once grown, the self-reliant, disciplined children are on their own. .....So, project this onto the nation and you see that to the right wing, the good citizens are the disciplined ones �?B> those who have already become wealthy or at least self-reliant

This sounds very stern and it is this kind of attitude that has given religion and/or God a bad name. The family and it’s protective shield for the young makes sense to me, a way of life that produces a better quality for those following also makes sense, though quality does not have to mean quantity or wealth.

The strict father model is behind/before the notion of the strict YHVH god model of the OT.

Not the way I see it. God has never forced anybody into anything...if he has, I’ve missed it, man on the other hand has. The questions arise "if God does exist what kind of God is he �?does he live by the standards he has set for others, speak mankind? Do the 10 commandments make sense? Or do they stop us from having fun—achieving happiness? These are questions everyone must answer for themselves. For me keeping the 10 commandments means a way of life that can bring peace amongst family members, friends and enemies alike.


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From: AprilbornSent: 1/11/2004 11:06 PM
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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 2:15 PM
from nickname Daily quota of radical buzzwords

Here is your daily quota of conservative? or radical? buzzwords:

http://www.fair.org/media-beat/950111.html

But there's nothing natural about the current downpour of political cliches. In recent years a lot of work has gone into seeding the clouds. The new speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, has described his goal as "reshaping the entire nation through the news media."

Which brings us to the most popular -- and possibly weirdest -- media cliche of the year so far:

"Revolution"

Since when is it a "revolution" to make things even more cushy for the wealthy and powerful, while making the rest of us even more vulnerable to their prerogatives?

"Big government"

"Middle class"

This one is an old standby, but it has gained renewed currency in recent weeks as the Republican and Democratic parties battle to don the mantle of champion for the "middle class." But who, precisely, is part of the "middle class"?

To hear many politicians -- and journalists -- tell it, the "middle class" is just about anyone who isn't below the official poverty line and doesn't qualify as a millionaire.

Reporting from Southern California in 1993, under the headline "GOP Blitz Against Budget Puts Democrats on Defensive", the New York Times explained on its front page that President Clinton was not offering much to "people earning more than $115,000, which is middle class in this high-cost region." Six figures a year, and part of the beleaguered middle class.

"Reform"

Here are some christian radical left buzzwords which I have even heard car salesmen used in ads like "I am one of you"

http://www.skepticfiles.org/fw/buzzword.htm

Freedom Writer - April 1994 [ref001] Buzzwords The following list of words and phrases found in campaign literature or political speeches will help identify Christian Right candidates. The mere use of certain words or phrases, however, does not prove a candidate is a theocrat. Use of these buzzwords should raise a red flag. _

Anti-Christian bigotry

Anti-family bigotry

Anti-tax

Back to basics in education

Bible reading in school

Biblical law

Biblical principles

Bizarre experiment

Choice in education

Christian nation

Christian values

Condom-based

Conservative

Decency

Excellence in education

Family values

Gay (or homosexual) agenda

Globalism Godless humanism

Godless education system

Hatch Act

Judeo-Christian values

Judeo-Christian principles

Kinsey-based

Media elite

Moral absolutes

Moral decency

Moral rebirth

Morals and ethics in school

New world order

New Age

Outcome-based education

Parental control or rights

Pro-family

Pro-life

Protect unborn children

Put prayer back in school

Right to life

Sacred human rights

School choice

Secular humanism

SIECUS-based

Social engineering

Special rights for homosexuals

Traditional values

Values-free

Voluntary school prayer

Vouchers

Here by far is the best piece on verbal manipulation aka mind control techniques:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/112422_joel14.shtml

"The environment is probably the single issue on which Republicans in general -- and President

OK, now, this is a definitely potent buzzword, which people have deep emotional reactions to:  winners and losers.

Bush in particular -- are most vulnerable," says a recent issue of Straight Talk, published by Luntz Research.

Instead, Luntz talks about massaging the message. Certain words, for instance, must be stricken from the vocabulary of America's political debate.

"It's time for us to start talking about 'climate change' instead of global warming and 'conservation' instead of preservation," Luntz advises.

Why?

"Climate change is less frightening than 'global warming,' " Straight Talk explains. "As one focus group participant noted, climate change 'sounds like you're going from Pittsburgh to Fort Lauderdale.' While global warming has catastrophic connotations attached to it, climate change suggests a more controllable and less emotional challenge."

Then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich used to greet Earth Day each April by giving his troops a list of public acts to show their concern for the environment. Visiting zoos was a favorite Gingrich gambit.

Luntz emphasizes the dos and don'ts of which words to use.

"When we talk about 'rolling back regulations' involving the environment, we are sending a signal Americans don't support," Straight Talk warns.

"If we suggest that the choice is between environmental protection and deregulation, the environment will win constantly."

Instead, Republicans are told to put the costs of regulation "in human terms." A sample labeled "Language that works" urges GOP politicos to deliver the following spiel:

"Unnecessary environmental regulations hurt moms and dads, grandmas and grandpas. They hurt senior citizens on fixed incomes. . . . They mean less income for families struggling to survive and educate their children."

As well, Straight Talk identifies issues and phrases as "winners" and "losers."

When talking about the Bush administration's withdrawal from the Kyoto global warming accord, Republicans are urged to sound nationalistic -- arguing that "voluntary innovation" is preferable to "international intervention and regulation."

"The 'international fairness' issue is the emotional home run," Luntz advises. The economic argument "should be secondary."

In a section titled "Getting back to nature," Republicans are advised to give personal testaments as to their love of the outdoors.

"Preserving parks and open spaces is a winner because it doesn't need to be explained to everyday Americans," Straight Talk says. "We need more issues like this."

Yup, holding two thumbs up is also a winner signal.

The Bush administration has proposed to "update" the Superfund program that cleans up toxic waste, an effort that critics say is designed to force the public rather than polluters to bear the costs. GOP congressional leaders have also tried to "modernize" the Clean Water Act.

Straight Talk indicates this is dangerous territory that must be finessed.

"Avoid terms and concepts like 'providing stewardship' (passive and unclear) in favor of 'preserving and protecting' (active and clear)," Luntz advises. "And the number one hot button to most voters is water quality" -- including both infrastructure and pollution protection.

"People don't understand the technicalities of environmental law -- but they do understand the benefits of conservation of water, land and open spaces. Republicans need to focus more on the benefits the public expects and spend less time debating process, which the public really doesn't care to follow."

"Process" seems to mean what you're doing behind the scenes . . . where, as a matter of fact, the Bush administration and some GOP lawmakers are using process to make policy.

A case in point is the effort to sneak through oil drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge as part of Congress' budget resolution. Another example: revised regulations that let utilities expand power plants without being required to install state-of-the-art pollution-control equipment.

In Arizona this week, your columnist came upon another example.

Sen. John Kyl, R-Ariz., has proposed a 1,200-foot shaft and $125 million pumping station and pipeline to allow the Peabody Coal Co. to get water out of the Colorado River for its mining operations.

In his legislation, Kyl has specified the project would be put between Lake Mead and Lees Ferry on the lower Colorado River.

Unmentioned: the fact that this stretch of river is in Grand Canyon National Park.

It was a Republican president, Theodore Roosevelt, who first protected the Grand Canyon. Another Republican president, Richard Nixon, signed into law the National Environmental Policy Act. A GOP governor in this state, Dan Evans, helped preserve millions of acres of wild lands.

Instead of manipulating the language, how 'bout emulating their actions?

Nickname-c always like bringing Newt because he was the father of mind control through verbal manipulation and still is.  Its amazing the amount time spent judging people's reactions to words!!


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From: AprilbornSent: 1/11/2004 11:07 PM
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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 2:15 PM
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De : <NOBR>Surnom MSNCatherine-----------</NOBR> Envoyé : 2003-11-10 04:42

Here by far is the best piece on verbal manipulation aka mind control techniques:

Dad, interesting stuff all this manipulation or mind control in politics. As Geek pointed out, what the general public really would like is fairness for all, is this possible in our world? The rich, the superrich and/or the bullies have always existed in our world and as such I see no way that this will change, unless there is a change of heart in the public as a whole?

Geek, on the whole the general public appreciates the things that are fair, I agree with you on that. Gross injustice most of us recognize, but what about the rest?

Are most of us not open to manipulation, unless we are aware of it’s subtleness? How can we be aware if we have nothing and/or no standard to measure things on? For example, how much has changed in the last 50 years, much for the better, I agree..The media has opened up a whole new world for us. This has brought positive benefits, on the other hand....

If we continue not to recognize the cause of the bad things we see around us, we shall continue to create the bullies we don’t want, at the end of the day, our children are the leaders of tomorrow...does this make sense?

One danger I see when looking at the world as a whole and this is the shaping up of other superpowers like Asia and Europe...many would say that this is a good counter balance for the US and If fairness and goodwill rule then I would agree...


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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 2:16 PM
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De : <NOBR>Surnom MSNCatherine-----------</NOBR> Envoyé : 2003-11-11 04:27

Catherine, mind control technigues are ancient. Fear by far was the most effective method of control. Like, have you ever seen a dad holdup his back-of-hand to a child as a threat. Sure, and, its effective.

I agree nickname-c.

The religionists doe it all the time. Either do what I say or go to hell, or get kicked out of church, or get ostracized, etc. Not belonging to group is an insidious fear of which people take advantage.

Yes, most churches demand baptism at birth, which leaves the child no choice wether he wants to belong to a club or not... in my view religion isn't something that should be decided for the child.

Even 100 years ago, there were ads to professionals like doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc. on how to hypnotize people. You might think that this outdated preoccupation. The desire to hypnotize people is as great today as several hundred years ago. Well, it depends on how you use it. One doctor would talk to his wife while she was asleep. Another guy used the same technigue to help his child overcome a physical defect.

TV has made it easy for people to be hypnotised et mass in our day and age. This doesn’t mean TV isn’t or cannot be used for positive purposes.

As you are probably aware, advertisers basically use repetition. They just repeat the product name several times in an ad, til the person remembers it on a subconsious level... unless you are aware of the technique.

They want to sell their products, so it is well packaged, often using sex or pretty pictures to stimulate.

Personally, I think its an interesting subject. But, there are politicians and advertisers who "profile" people using this knowledge. Its basically come down to buzzwords repeated over and over again. They already know how certain folks "profiles" will react to those words. Politicians use to make long speeches, serious speeches. No longer. Now, its just series of buzzwords and claps.

Well, it seems that we are sold an image rather then a substance...


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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 2:17 PM
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De : <NOBR>Surnom MSNCatherine-----------</NOBR> Envoyé : 2003-11-11 05:34
Pegah Ghassemi English 1 12/11/00
 
Propaganda in Nazi Germany In the period of time around the Second World War, the German people’s heads were infiltered with Nazi Propaganda.. Little by little the German population was stripped away of their judgement and morality by being brainwashed by Hitler and the Nazi party with propaganda. Propaganda played a very big role in controlling and dictating the German population during the Second World War. Hitler used it “to control the press as well as all other means of expression-radio, film, art, and literature�?Rhodes 11). He also used propaganda to hypnotize the German people into believing he and his party were what was best for Germany’s future. “Hitler’s use of propaganda was his most sinister weapon, for it aimed at, and succeeded in persuading the Germans that the Nazi system would restore their country’s greatness�?Rhodes 11). Propaganda was used so much to influence the German masses that “in Nazi Germany it [was] considered worthy of an entire government department�?Rhodes 11). They made propaganda its own section in the government to regulate and monitor what the German people would be hearing for the next several years to come. “On March 13, the Ministry for Popular Enlightenment was founded under the direction of Dr.Josef Goebbels�?Rhodes 11). “Hitler met [Goebbels] in 1926 and quickly appreciating his oratorical power of persuasion, made him head the Party Propaganda department �?Rhodes 13). Goebbels knew exactly how to influence a crowd. He knew what made the masses tick. He also had a great sense for what the German people were looking for in a leader, and so he showed them just that with Hitler through Ghassemi 2 Propaganda. “[He] was to become one of history’s greatest political propagandists�?Rhodes 12). Hitler and Goebbels knew that Propaganda would work best with those less educated. Educated individuals question and interrogate what they hear. Most will not just follow the crowd or follow some dictator, because they know better. It is for that reason that Hitler did not like the intellectuals. He knew they might someday come in his way. Hitler worked around the fact that “propaganda consists in attracting the crowd, and not in educating those who are already educated�?Rhodes12). Early on in their quest to rule the world, Hitler and Goebbels realized that “propaganda must be addressed to the emotions and not to the intelligence�?Rhodes 12). So the Nazi Party terrorized professors and known savants out of the country before they began brainwashing the rest of the population. “Most writers and dramatists of any merit had left the country or were proscribed when the Nazis came to power: men like Thomas Mann, Remarque, Zweig, Reinhardt, Toller, Brecht, Franz Werfel�?Rhodes 29). Nazi writer Schunzel wrote, “In this land we do not read books. We swim, we wrestle, we lift weights�?Rhodes 29). The Nazis did not want people to think for themselves. They wanted everyone to use their physical skills instead of their mental skills. Aside from knowing that propaganda does not work with the intellectuals, Goebbels also knew that the people want an all around good leader. “The modern dictator must be at once a superman and a man of the people, remote yet accessible, wise yet simple, lonely on his olympian height, yet ready to mix with the crowd�?Rhodes 13). He has to be everything at once so that the people believe that their leader is some kind of a hero. Goebbels believed that “the masses love a commander�?Rhodes 12). He did everything he could to make Hitler look fierce yet reasonable at the same time. Ghassemi 3 Goebbels used propaganda to trick the people into believing whatever he wanted them to believe, therefore he did not believe that the German population was too intelligent. It was his assumption that the people were not very smart because they were able to be swayed so easily. “Although he said that in the future the man who controlled the masses would control the State, he made no attempt to hide his contempt for the masses�?Winkler 32). Goebbels knew that if the same message was portrayed enough repeatedly to the people, then they would have no choice but to believe it. He once said that “nothing is easier than leading the people on a leash. I just hold up a dazzling campaign poster and they jump through it�?Rhodes 10). Goebbels had no doubt in his mind that within no time, the German people would be eating out of the Nazi Party’s hand because they would have been fed so much propaganda. Hitler’s Party started their propaganda schemes several years before World War Two even started because they needed that much time to slowly control the population. Half a decade before the War, “the Nazis were already skillfully using all the new 20th-century media- press, radio, film, and posters- to control, direct, and coordinate the masses�?Rhodes 11). The Nazi Party filtered their ideals into the people’s brains in every form possible. “By the outbreak of the Second World War, Goebbels�?Propaganda Ministry had complete control of the press, radio, theater, cinema, the creative arts, music, writing, and art exhibitions�?Rhodes 18). They controlled pretty much everything that reached the public in any way. Goebbels and the Propaganda Ministry realized that when everything the people heard or saw portrayed the same message, then the people would not think on their own, they would just automatically believe whatever was being portrayed to them. “When every contemporary book people read, every newspaper, every film they see, every broadcast they hear for years on end is permeated with the same spirit, the same propaganda, they are no longer to relate what they see and hear to alternative reports; they lose their judgement�?Winkler 18). Every where looked there was a Nazi message being shown somehow. “The very streets of the cities were transformed into propaganda�?(Baird 43). Propaganda was used in many media covering methods. One of the ways the Nazis used propaganda was through newspapers and the press. Goebbels and the Propaganda Ministry almost completely took over the press. “At the height of its power during the Second World War, the Propaganda Ministry was issuing daily directives to the editors of newspapers all over Germany about what to print, in such detail that the papers were virtually written for the editors�?Rhodes 11). No journalist could write freely about daily events. Everything was monetered and supervised in detail by the Propaganda Ministry. Goebbels wanted everything in the newspapers to be for the Nazi Party’s benefit. “When the Nazis came to power, there were four thousand five hundred newspapers reflecting a variety of political persuasion. By 1939, the number had been reduced to one thousand, all of which were following the Party Line�?Rhodes 29). They shut down every newspaper that would not let the Nazi Party review their work. Hitler wanted Goebbels to control everything that would eventually reach the people. In addition to the newspapers, the film industry was also very closely supervised. “Because the Nazis considered the cinema such a powerful medium, its personnel- actors, directors, electricians, cameramen, etc.- were immediately forced to take the oath of loyalty to the Fuhrer�?Rhodes 19). All scripts were reviewed by the Propaganda Ministry before being produced and made into a movie. Most of the movies not only had to be approved by the Propaganda Ministry, but they also had to have a Nazi theme to them. Most movies were war stories depicting a heroic soldier fighting the bad guys and either wining the war or losing Ghassemi 5 honorably in combat. They used movies to show the people how war is used for good and how it is okay to die in combat. The film industry was a great means to depict the Nazi belief to the public by encoding it into a pretty story that the people would surely enjoy. “Another way in which the Propaganda Ministry interfered was in the censorship of foreign films�?Rhodes 20). The movie “Jud Suss�?Rhodes 20) was used to personify how crooked jews were. It was an anti-Semitic film set in the Middle Ages about a “crooked-nosed�?Jew who forces a German woman to sleep with him or he’ll hurt her husband. At the end of the movie, the woman kills herself like a good German and the Jew is hanged (Rhodes 20). “The hanging of the Jew at the end of the movie was described by a German critic as a ‘joyous crescendo”�?Rhodes 20). By showing movies with such a message, the Nazi Party makes people believe that Jews are bad people and that it is okay to hurt them. They slowly demoralized the Jewish population by trashing their name and dignity in every way possible. Another way the Propaganda Ministry used the Cinema industry was by targetting their movies towards the youth of Germany. “Goebbels�?propagandists found the youth an easy prey�?Baird 22). They believed that the younger generation of Germans would be the easiest to take over mentally. “One of the most important uses of the cinema was for the indoctrination of the young�?Rhodes 21). They brought the children by the masses to the movie theaters to watch propaganda filled films about war. Karl Ritter, a fanatical Nazi, film director, glorified death in battle in his films (Rhodes 21). They tried to teach the kids that the individual does not matter. What matters is the country as a unit. “As Ritter himself said, ‘my films all deal with the unimportance of the individual... all that is personal is as nothing compared with the Cause’�?Rhodes 21). The Cause meaning the unity of Germany, and its goal to control the Ghassemi 6 world. “The effect of these films was inordinate. Many of the Hitler Youth who had been herded by the thousands into the cinemas to see them were taken prisoner during the war. Under Allied interrogation, they revealed the influence these films had had on them�?Rhodes 21). These children had been so brainwashed that when war time came no one asked any questions, they just followed their leader blindly. “Had Germany won the Second World War, these young people could have spent their entire lives under the spell of a system invented and perfected by Goebbels�?Rhodes 30). They would never have realized that these thoughts they were having had been planted into their heads many years ago by some movie producer. “Concurrently with the cinema as a means of visual propaganda appeared the poster. This apparently simple form of advertisement played a greater part in the Nazis�?rise to power than is generally realized�?Rhodes 22). They used the poster to give a swift quick message to the people. Everywhere around the cities of Germany were plenty of full size posters of Hitler looking strong and powerful. There were posters of young German boys in Nazi uniform helping Hitler build up newer better Germany. “Goebbels�?propagandists knew that visual impressions are extremely strong, that people may forget a newspaper article, but not a picture- if they see it often and its message is obvious�?Rhodes 22). That’s why they made their posters as simple as possible. The point was for everyone to understand the message the poster was portraying right away. “A pamphlet or a newspaper could be thrown away, unread; the radio turned off; political meetings not attended; likewise the cinema. But everyone at some time or other walked in the streets. The poster could not be avoided�?Rhodes 22). Goebbels wanted the people to be so exposed to the Nazi way of life that they would forget about their own thoughts and morals. Another form of propaganda used by Goebbels in Germany was the radio. “The radio Ghassemi 7 soon came to be regarded as the principle propaganda medium�?Rhodes 28). It was a way of speaking to the people directly and making them believe they were apart of something big. Broadcasts on Nazi rallies were aired live on the radio so that if you were not at the rally then you could still be apart of it at home. “[Goebbels] once said that radio would do for the 20th Century what newspapers had done for the 19th �?Rhodes 26). Every night they would air Nazi filled propaganda in the homes of hundreds of Germans. Hitler made over fifty major broadcasts in his first year. They were speeches at meetings and rallies rather than studio broadcasts (Rhodes 26). That way the people listening at home felt like they too were at the rallies. The Propaganda Ministry took the radio very seriously as a means of propaganda. They even issued a “radio warden for each block of houses or apartment buildings. This Party member would encourage his neighbors who did not own a radio to buy one (sometimes he would lend them the money to do so); otherwise, to listen to important speeches in his or a friends�?house�?Rhodes 27). The warden would also send in “regular reports on the peoples�?reactions to the broadcasts�?(Rhodes 27). That way Hitler and the Nazis got imediate feedback on their rallies. Goebbels would be able to find out what the people at home cheered and what they did not approve of. “The radio warden became of special importance during the war when he reported those listening to foreign broadcasts�?Rhodes 27). Since all radio broadcasts were monitered by Goebbels and the Propaganda Ministry, they did not want the people listening to foreign radio programs because they might hear what was really going on in the world. Hitler had completley secluded Germany’s people from the rest of the world. The news they heard was very different than the news other countries heard. Their version of the war was almost one hundred percent changed by propaganda. Ghassemi 8 Other forms of propaganda were less similar then the ones listed above. Propaganda through literature, for example, was not very popular. Literature is a form of expression that is more for the intellects of the country. “Literature is addressed primarily to the intellect and has little mass appeal�?(Rhodes 29). So Goebbels did not really need to focus on changing German literature so much. Literature did not reach as many people as a radio broadcast, a newspaper article, a movie, or a poster on the street would have. Goebbels and the Propaganda Ministry used propaganda very wisely to brainwash the German people. They made sure that Propaganda would somehow reach everyone in someway shape or form. Wether it be through newspapers, radio broadcasts, movies , or posters, Goebbels made sure that everyone saw and heard his messages. They did everything in their power to make sure that they were reaching people through their propaganda.
 

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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 2:17 PM
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De : <NOBR>Surnom MSNCatherine-----------</NOBR> Envoyé : 2003-11-11 05:53

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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 2:18 PM
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De : <NOBR>Surnom MSNCatherine-----------</NOBR> Envoyé : 2003-11-12 14:20
One simple question

Why is it that so many like to compete with their neighbor?


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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 2:23 PM
from nickname-c
 
 
Keep in the mind, the main idea is "profiling".
 
Basically profiling means creating a database of people specifically labeled as this or that:
 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A22406-2002Jun9&notFound=true

"What's different this time is you will have this list to control access" to the White House, Congress and federal agencies, according to a GOP lobbyist working on it. "That's been very clear from the discussions."

Republicans involved in the effort said they plan for it to be used by White House officials, lawmakers and staff to determine who can meet with party leaders in discussions of policy matters. The idea is to alert GOP officials and staff members to Republicans who "deserve" such access and to Democrats who don't, said one lobbyist involved. It will also give busy lawmakers and officials an idea of whom they are dealing with, even if they don't choose to keep Democratic lobbyists out of their office.

Information is power, and people in general give it away easily:  Plus, you so-called ethical orgs are not as ethical as they may appear:
 

http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/31/election.tech.idg/index.html

Candidates use databases, mapping technology to target voters

October 31, 2000

(IDG) -- The PC-based GeoVoter system in Darryl Howard's office is getting a workout before next week's elections. As executive director of the Oregon Republican Party in Salem, Howard is a leading-edge user of database and mapping technology that helps candidates deliver personalized campaign messages to individual voters.

"I'll give you an example," he said. "A Democratic candidate yesterday said he'd like to tax SUV owners. Our [Republican] candidate will drop a mail piece in the next few days based on the fact that I can tell you everybody who owns an SUV who's a registered voter in that district."

In other words, the mailings will go only to those 3,600 sport-utility vehicle owners, so there's no wastage. "All politics is not local. All politics is personal," Howard said.

Political campaigns have mined voter-registration and census data for decades, but now they're adding demographic data about things such as income, charitable donations, vehicle ownership and magazine subscriptions to create profiles of individual voters. When plotted on a geographic information system, the data gives campaigns a powerful tool for politicking at the household level.

Interested in the future of you and your family?  Well, here is the future in connection with the so-called internet.  Its a brave new world.
 

http://www.hermes-press.com/program1.htm

 

These profiling or personallity simulation systems:

<DIR> <DIR>

capture a person's mental components: actions, beliefs, ideas, attitudes, purchasing patterns, habits, etc.

translate these into a computer system: a program which prioritizes and relates the various elements to an overall purpose

<DIR> <DIR>

example 1: a consumer profile which gives a certain weight to specific kinds of purchases the person makes and predicts what products they would buy in the future

example 2: a criminal behavior profile based on prior indictments or convictions used to predict future criminal activity

</DIR></DIR>

use the system to influence and control that person's ideas and behavior

<DIR> <DIR>

example 1: TV ads based on the profile developed from the consumer's purchasing patterns

example 2: military counterintelligence activities based on a profile of the enemy's leadership

</DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR>

This may sound like science fiction or Frankenstein's laboratory, but it is the actual state of the technology in personality simulation and control.

Personality simulation falls within the domain of artificial intelligence. From its inception, artificial intelligence (AI) has been primarily concerned with developing systems which simulate human behavior for the purpose of controlling such behavior.

In 1950, a British computer scientist, Alan Turing, devised a test to prove whether or not a computer system displayed intelligence. It is now called the Turing Indistinguishability Test:

Place a computerized personality simulation system in one room and Person A in another

If Person B communicates with each room and the input and output from each room is indistinguishable as being from a computer system or a real person, then the computer system is intelligent.

Unfortunately, such theorizing in artificial intelligence has misled some people to conjecture that a computer system could be developed which actually carried out the human function of thinking. If you examine the definitions of "think, <javascript:makeTour()>" it's clear that only a human with a mind (more than a physical brain) can think.

One of the AI researchers the U.S. Department of Defense funded over many years was a Freudian psychiatrist at Stanford University, Kenneth J. Colby. He developed computer systems to simulate the mind for the express purpose of influencing and controlling the behavior of his psychiatric patients.

Colby developed three models of the human personality over many years of research:

<DIR> <DIR> <DIR> <DIR>

Model of a neurotic woman suffering from anxiety in relation to men

Artificial belief system - a "child brain"

Model of paranoid processes - which later was nicknamed Parry

</DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR>

Colby's models of the human mind were based on these principles:

<DIR> <DIR>

The credibility of a belief is based on the credibility of its source

Human personalities are based on belief systems concerning significant persons, including the self

Every psychological concept has specific significance to the person: e.g. father, love

Input from others is evaluated and "colored" by mental patterns such as fear or anger

A human's mind changes with inner conflict, transforming beliefs to fit into an overall pattern

</DIR></DIR>

These are a few of the startling implications of Colby's models:

<DIR> <DIR>

By capturing a person's belief structures we can control him or her

Unenlightened human minds are combinations of infantile beliefs and emotional patterns

Unenlightened human minds can be simulated by a computerized system

Through such systems, unenlightened people can be programmed and controlled

</DIR></DIR>

It's necessary for us to realize that the components of most personalities can be captured and developed into a complete simulation of our thinking and feeling processes. That simulation can then be used to manipulate us in any way the artificial intelligence technician, political operative, or communicator chooses. Not only is this possible, but it's already taking place, as we'll see below.

When people first encounter this idea of mind control through computer simulation, they usually try to dodge the issue with an unthinking denial. They protest:

<DIR> <DIR>

Don't humans change too much to be controllable?
Answer: A sophisticated computerized personality simulation system would include modifications in its profile of the person relative to the ways the individual changes.

How could someone control my behavior when I don't even know what my beliefs are myself?
Answer: An AI knowledge engineer can capture the major elements of your personality, including the fact that you may not know what you believe.

Isn't this a bit too much in the science-fiction realm?
Answer: In 1971 an AI system developed by Kenneth Colby passed the Turing Test. Members of the American Psychiatric Association could not distinguish between dialogue with actual mildly paranoid patients and dialogue with Colby's system.

Few people today, including AI researchers, realize that Colby's system passed the Turing Indistinguishibiligy Test, proving that his system contained demonstrable intelligence. And even more significant, few today realize that Colby's system - and current systems based on the same principles - are predicting and CONTROLLING human behavior.

But that was in the past. Surely this kind of thing is not going on now is it?
Answer: It's going on all the time and growing in power. Personality simulation systems are being used to create political campaigns which apply voter profiles to control their voting behavior. TV commercials and programs use personality simulation to profile viewers to control their purchasing and viewing behaviors.

</DIR></DIR>

<DIR> <DIR>

Are there recent studies of this mind-control technology?
Answer: Yes.

<DIR> <DIR>

Roland Perry's 1984 book, The Programming of the President < sps3.htm>: the Hidden Power of the Computer in World Politics Today, reveals how all the recent presidential election campaigns have used this technology to control voter behavior.

Strategic Personality Simulation: A New Strategic Concept <sps2.htm> the author's book which was published by the U.S. Army War College

A Strategic Personality Simulation Illustration: Richard Nixon <Spssml.exe>

A Strategic Personality Simulation Illustration: Realpolitik <Realpol1.exe>

 

I suspected that the politicians are very much interested in this and not just the corps.
 
 
I know you all are shocked.  This must be science fiction, which it is.
 

Isn't this a bit too much in the science-fiction realm?
Answer: In 1971 an AI system developed by Kenneth Colby passed the Turing Test. Members of the American Psychiatric Association could not distinguish between dialogue with actual mildly paranoid patients and dialogue with Colby's system.

For those who did not understand the implication here, a person on the internet can not tell if they are talking to a so-called "real" person or ..... <dramatic pause> an artifical intellience program!  Obviously, this is a reality today about the internet. What is "real" and what is not "real"?  The above idea is only a very primitive take on the movie called "Matrix".  The difference:  politicians using machines + programs to control human behavior.  Have a happy day.


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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 2:23 PM
from nickname-c
 
 
A question of who is a fundraiser?
 

http://www.azstarnet.com/influence/0311page2.html

They met at a Cracker Barrel restaurant.

"I left there feeling I had been run through the gamut. He was very pointed in his questions. Then toward the end, he smiled and said he wanted to help me and wanted to do a fund-raiser."

That first reception for Dunbar netted about $3,000.

Nowhere does the official record reflect this work. And lawmakers generally are reluctant to reveal which lobbyists helped with their campaigns.

Case in point: Senate President Randall Gnant.

Gnant, a Scottsdale Republican, said in an interview that lawmakers should have to disclose who sits on their campaign fund-raising committees. But when asked who sat on his, he said he'd have to check at home.

When asked if he would do that and report back, he said he wouldn't unless all 89 other lawmakers did the same.


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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameSKULLDIGGERY</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 7:05 PM
Well that was a lot of reading, this post got my attention:
 

Here by far is the best piece on verbal manipulation aka mind control techniques:

Dad, interesting stuff all this manipulation or mind control in politics. As Geek pointed out, what the general public really would like is fairness for all, is this possible in our world? The rich, the superrich and/or the bullies have always existed in our world and as such I see no way that this will change, unless there is a change of heart in the public as a whole?

Geek, on the whole the general public appreciates the things that are fair, I agree with you on that. Gross injustice most of us recognize, but what about the rest?

Are most of us not open to manipulation, unless we are aware of it’s subtleness? How can we be aware if we have nothing and/or no standard to measure things on? For example, how much has changed in the last 50 years, much for the better, I agree..The media has opened up a whole new world for us. This has brought positive benefits, on the other hand....

If we continue not to recognize the cause of the bad things we see around us, we shall continue to create the bullies we don’t want, at the end of the day, our children are the leaders of tomorrow...does this make sense?

One danger I see when looking at the world as a whole and this is the shaping up of other superpowers like Asia and Europe...many would say that this is a good counter balance for the US and If fairness and goodwill rule then I would agree...

Sl{ULLSPONGE

"It's not the fact of being the best or most powerful that counts, but how much better it could be for all of humankind"


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Recommend Delete    Message 32 of 34 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/25/2003 10:52 PM
I will reread it also,
 
I came to msngroups because I wanted to get back into the political realm after 30 years of roaming freely in the techno fields. All that was going on after 9-11 was running in a path that was not consistent with my view of the planet trends. English is not my primary language and recent detailed US political evolution was mystery to me. I was lucky to find cath, from which I have learn many things and who I use to guide me into today's abstracts of what is going on.
 
I haven't finish the catch-up yet, but when I was reposting this from it's former location I noticed I understood more of hers then when it was originally posted. So I will recomment more on it. Hope cath will rejoined me with it.
 
I will repost also our conversations about 'does god exist', 'who really rules the world' and 'plutocracy' is already here.
 
If we continue not to recognize the cause of the bad things we see around us, we shall continue to create the bullies we don’t want, at the end of the day.
 
My view on this is:
 
Humanity is like a flock of sheep that is guided by 'The Holy Ghost' to better pastures. Some of us are like 'black sheeps" that think they know best and start group movements into other directions like if they new where the best pastures are. In fact, it's from their own delusions of power over the flock and sooner or later 'Reality' will strikes back and return them (or their posterity) to the greater flock. In the mean-time one has not to worry and observe the best one can the pastures we are visiting and learn from it the most one can about oneself.

notes:

sometime I use -O- to name G-D, because G-D is (M)O(M) & (P)O(P) to me.

"It's not the fact of being the best or most powerful that counts, but how much better it could be for all of humankind"

Most true to me too SI{ULL


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From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameSKULLDIGGERY</NOBR> Sent: 12/26/2003 4:48 AM
OG1, thanks for that. I have come to the conclusion that everything in the universes works in harmony and balance, with one glaring exception -The Human Race- and many ego driven and greedy persons are mucking it up for the rest of us. I don't know if you've ever checked in to it, but I think you and Cath would benefit from the study of "semiotics" The theory of many converging truth's. It's similar to string theory for humans.
 
Sl{ULLY

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Recommend Delete    Message 34 of 34 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 1/2/2004 4:27 AM

One danger I see when looking at the world as a whole and this is the shaping up of other superpowers like Asia and Europe...many would say that this is a good counter balance for the US and If fairness and goodwill rule then I would agree...

"It's not the fact of being the best or most powerful that counts, but how much better it could be for all of humankind"

Sl{ULL,

Do you see such attitude shaping up in the world ? Should be interesting to see what the year 2004 will bring...


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