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Hans and everyone- I am a bit curious about cooking meat-especially beef and chicken-in a crock po over several hours in a stew of sorts (lots of tomato sauce-organic) with spices.....will this safely eliminate my concerns of oxidized cholesterol? I do eat a fair amount of grass fed beef and organic chicken, I tend to stay away from grilling or anything fried because of homocysteine production. But I am curious of the effects of crock potting meats and what it will do to the cholesterol in such- Thanks, Michael |
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| Not really sure, but what I would do is to freeze the meat for at least two weeks, then let it thaw, cut it into small pieces, and put it in an antioxidant-rich sauce at medium or medium-low setting. I use gelatin but I don't eat "meat" otherwise, so that's about all I can say, in light of the evidence and suggestions I've seen. |
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what is it about gelatin that you keep proposing its usage? isn't gelatin the stuff you use to make gello? are there anything nutritious in it? is gelatin what they mean by L Glutathion or glutamine? I am seriously thinking aobut supplement with that type of amino acid,,, there seem to be some controversies over their absorption. Whats your take on this ? |
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I don't know of any "controversy" about the body's ability to break down and absorb the amino acids in gelatin. If you could site a web site that makes such a claim, I'll take a look at it. Also, Ray Peat talks a lot about gelatin, so you can read his stuff at www.raypeat.com
I had tendonsis for over two years, trying different things to "cure" it, and it was only after 2-3 months of regular gelatin supplements that the pain stopped. I had been eating, more protein, better quality protein, and taking the stomach acid for several months, but it was only when I added the gelatin that it went away.
The amino acids in gelatin are used for important structural purposes in the body, and have "anti-reactive" qualities, unlike other amino acids, such as tryptophan. Basically, because of the kind of "meat" most people now eat, they are getting too much or the "reactive" amino acids and too little of the less reactive ones. This might not be all that terrible, but with arachidonic acid in one's cells, with a diet rich in iron, with a diet low in antioxidant-rich foods, etc., it probably is a very bad idea.
And no, it is not glutathione, which is an antioxidant, nor glutamine, which is an amino acid. The wikipedia.org entry on glutamine states that it aids in "intestinal cell proliferation and differentiation..." Now anything that "aids in proliferation and differentiation" has stressful effects - growth is essentially change due to stress that is applied in a way that is not too dangerous. However, eating a diet rich in such a substance, and poor in substances that are naturally present and that serve as a sort of "counter balance" is a bad idea. If you want to raise your own animals and eat the entire animal, rather than the "choice cuts of meat" that is probably fine, in moderation and prepared the right way, but few people do this these days, obviously.
Source for the quoted passage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine |
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i think with my weakened immune state, i need to supplement with something that will cause rise in my gluthione level. hans, i know what you mean by doing it the natural way, but with my current health status, i need a boost of some sort. it seems that undenatured whey protein seem to be the best way to go. i am also eating a lot of good protein as well such as bone, liver and etc... what do you think about undenatured whey protein as precursor to creating more gluthione level. what is it about gelatin that makes it so healing? i am not sure if you read my recent post in aidsmythexposed, but i was in the hosptial last week for pcp,,, so i am trying to detox from all the medicaiton. you said to never fear a bout of antibiotic,,, what do you mean by that? |
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| I think gelatin is usually made from meat debries (connective tissue, bones) having a higher chance of being contaminated with the nervous tissues like spine. If the BSE scare is true, people eating gelatin may face the prion disease after ~20 years ... Wouldn't it be safer to consume the "glucosamine+chondroitin+MSM" combination instead? It's made from sharks and shellfish not the (mad)cows? Also I agree that complete protein is important for optimal body functionality but recent experiments (at least in rodents) show that actually protein (not caloric) restriction extends lifespan. They even narrowed it to the amino acid methionine so eating protein deficient in methionine may be the way to go in a long run. Methionine aparently increases homocysteine and modifies the respiratory chain in mitochondria so that it produces more ROS polution (Barja, G. et al.) |
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In such animal experiments it is assumed that the animals need "essential fatty acids," and when I did the research into the homocystein claims, it just came back to people eating the wrong lipids. Until an experiment is done that controls for all potentially relevant factors, you have to come to tentative conclusions based upon a reading of the evidence as a whole.
The notion that "Mad Cow" disease is caused by an "infectious prion" appears to be yet another absurd claim, brought to you by the same people who run around with various visions of the "germ theory" dancing in their heads. You can go to http://www.markpurdey.com/ for some interesting information about alternative notions. Basically, only a massive exposure in the wrong places of the body could create such a disorder. Eating such "prions" has yet to produce such disease. Gelatin supplies the "building blocks" that are necessary, and you can't get that from MSM and similar products. |
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tyk:
I tried to respond to you post on the other forum, but it kept coming up as page not found. The thing is that there is probably at least one way to help you, but when you get to a very fragile state, if you do the wrong thing, it may be the last chance you get. You can try the Metagenics whey powder, for example, but in large doses this will have a strong effect, and not necessarily a good one - there is no way I can say. I do agree with Peat that most Americans have a diet that is too serotogenic, and whey might enhance this situation, unlike cheese.
In retrospect, I think I had protein energy malnutrition, due to too little stomach acid, but I have a feeling that while you might have this to some degree, you may have also prematurely aged your immune system, just as a person who stays out in the sun with no protection would prematurely age his or her skin. If I was in that position, I would try to keep biochemical activity down to a minimum, so that the "bugs" don't get "clingy" and cause inflammatory responses that are harmful (and with arachidonic acid in your body, this response is even more harmful). There is also the issue of your gut bacteria. I recently found that eating the rind off of cheap brie seemed to have nearly instant benefits. My stomach felt a little strange for a few days, but then I notices some benefits, such as no film on my teeth when I wake up, so I'd advise you to try this. I don't think your "immune system" is "weakened," but rather that it is shifting, due to too much antigenic exposure, and this is what leads to the so-called opportunistic infections. This can certainly be dangerous, but I have a feeling that there are ways of dealing with it that are simple and don't involve any drugs that have toxic side effects. You will have to decide for yourself what you want to do, of course, but if you want to document exactly what you are doing, along with the results, I'll continue to give you my input. |
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As to homocysteine, here is the kind of study I've encountered:
QUOTE: Oxidative damage is implicated in several pathologies including cardiovascular disease. As a model system to study the response of cells to oxidative insults, homocysteine toxicity was examined since it is an independent risk factor for atherosclerotic disease. The levels of malondialdehyde and 4-hydroxyalkenals were assayed as an index of oxidatively damaged lipid. In in vitro experiments, the increase of lipid peroxidation products induced by homocysteine were concentration- and time-dependent. To study the protective effect of melatonin on homocystine induced lipid peroxidation, brain homogenates were treated with different concentrations of melatonin. The accumulation of malondialdehyde and 4-hydroxyalkenals induced by homocysteine was significantly reduced by melatonin in a concentration-dependent manner. Additionally, a melatonin concentration of 1.5 mM reduced the levels of oxidatively damaged lipid products below those measured in control homogenates (no homocysteine, no melatonin). These data suggest that melatonin, an endogenous antioxidant may have a role in protecting cells from oxidative damage due to homocysteine and they support the idea that pharmacological concentrations could be used as a therapeutic agent in reducing cardiovascular disease where homocysteine may be a causative or contributing agent. UNQUOTE.
TITLE: Inhibitory effect of melatonin on homocysteine-induced lipid peroxidation in rat brain homogenates.
Source: Pharmacology & toxicology (Pharmacol. toxicol.). 2002, vol. 90, no1, pp. 32-37 (1 p.1/4).
On the internet: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13587147 |
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yeah, i 've been trying to respond back to my message, but kept coming up as page not found, maybe Chris has blocked my postings now. well, i am currently on Septra and 20 mg of Cortisteroid and Fluconsole (for candida). I am just so scared to be on those medication even though the doctor will get them off next week hopefully. I don't ever want to go through what i just went through and this fear is making me trust the clinical data, and that doctor's past history. however, with that said,, ,maybe its the steroid, but i have been taking in LOTS of good meat and protein. Four eggs in the morning with all sorts of fat, hunk of meat for lunch and another hunk of meat for dinner. All with small portion of fermented vegies and brown rice. I feel really good with this diet actually. I don't think i ever ate so much i also eat tons of yogurt when i take the medication currently, hopefully to negate the effect. however, i tried to eat cheese yesterday and it made my stomach feel all sour, didn't go away until i had dinner.why would cheese do that to my stomach whereas yogurt won't? for some reason, my waste is sorta hard, harder than it has ever been in months. is it the medicine or change in my diet to add more hard core protein? another thing , i feel like currently i have no choice but to go on hiv meds to somehow get my 15 cd4 count up. clinically, there are all these infections that can happen when cd4 count is that low no matter what the controversies surrounding that number may be. thats why i was so interested in L-Gluthathione. There seem to be a bunch of studies on how it benefits oxidation of blood and etc... However, they also suggest that supplementing oneself with L Gluthathione is not such a good idea because it won't be utilized well in the liver. is metagenics whey powder undenatured whey? i am so confused,,, does gelatin really cause harm in the long run? what if they use that powder made with crap and junk left over from meat processing..... all that chemical from the animal left over... could that be true? can i get all the goodies in gelatin powder as i can in undenatured whey? i know that all this should be supplied naturally and only through a diet, but since my body is in shock and something is wrong, i feel that i should supplmenet along with my vitamins and etc... |
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I don't think you are being blocked on the other newsgroup. If you were, you would have received an email telling you that a post was rejected. It appears to be a technical problem.
If you are constipated or have hard stool, try sauerkraut or another kind of fermented cabbage, figs, or prunes. You can also try prune juice, but I prefer the whole food.
I can't say why such things as cheese intolerance is occurring, even though yogurt seems to be working out well for you. You might want to try all different kinds of cheeses.
A lot of foods have glutatione, such as watermelon. Keep in mind that it's an antioxidant, and that it's likely that the reason it is low in a lot of people is because they have a lot of unsaturated fatty acids and oxidized cholesterol in their diets.
The Metagenics product is the best, from what I understand - as close to what it would have been hundreds of years ago that you can get in a product that is widely available. Keep in mind that I don't think it's going to do much for you, though you can use it to ferment all kinds of things. You just mash up the food, such as a sweet potato, then add good quality salt and the Metagenics whey, and enough water. You let it sit out, covered only with a paper towel to keep dust off, usually for a day or two, then cover tightly and put it in the refrigerator for a day. When I used to do this, I only ate small amounts of it at a time.
I can't advise on the decision to take this or that medication. I don't think there is any good evidence, however, that taking a particular drug is going to result in a long term rise in the CD4s. The thing about CD4s is that they are like a floodgate to the immune system, so if it is mostly closed, you don't get enough of the Th1 response, and then "opportunistic infections" can be a problem, theoretically. However, people can have naturally low levels, and be healthy (and "HIV negative, for what it's worth), so it may be that it is a marker that is non-specific, such as fatigue, loss of appetite, difficulty getting a good night's sleep, etc. If you have prematurely aged your immune system, it may be like trying to "uncrack" and egg, or it may be easy to compensate for it. If I was in charge of funding, I would give it to researchers who wanted to use lab animals to see if diet, and perhaps a few other things, could in fact compensate. Instead, they seem to mostly fund studies that are basically useless, or are a kind of advertisement for expensive and toxic "miracle medicines." |
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i understand about the whole med thing and the cd4, but i am really really desperate in that i don't want any nastier infection that "they" say come with extremely low cd4 count, like JC and MAC and CMV and varoius other things. not to disgust you, i also had recent herpies outbreak which i never had before except for minor cankker sores sometime. And it seems that my doctor tells me after 20 years of treating patient and himself, those antiviral medication do help raise the cd4 count to somewhat "normal" to manageable level. i mean, sure, i am going to try it,,, i heard i can survive being on it for a little bit. brrr... all so scary. i talked to my doctor friend who specialized in neurology and there are suppose to be all sorts of brain infections that occur to peopel whose cd4 count is very very low. the fear is eating me up and i think i have right basis for that fear.....i am still going to follow low anarchronic acid diet because inflammation is very dangerous to treating anything.... thanks for your advice actually, i want harder stool i rarely have hard stool all my stools are pretty loose and melts into the water right away,,, i am thinking all my problems are due to that. am i wrong? |
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My take is that such "medication" can function as a surrogate immune system, but the long term effects are very dangerous. As I said, it's not clear whether a threshold is reached and then you can't "go back" and ever have a fairly normal immune system again. You may indeed be caught between the proverbial rock and hard place at this point. However, because the "opportunistic infections" seem to thrive only under certain conditions, and since it appears that one can eliminate those conditions, I think one can create a situation that is similar to the "meds," but without the possible side effects. This is obviously speculation on my part, and that's why I say I wish researchers would work on this kind of thing than all the nonsense they generate chasing a phantom virus.
Your stool can be an indicator, but it is non-specific, and is likely to be effect rather than cause. This also appears true of what they call "HIV" - effect rather than cause. |
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i just don't have any other choice at this point, i can't afford to get another nastier infection especially anything to do with brain: finanacially and healthy wise. my doctor seems pretty open minded for a conventional doctor,,, his whole point is do whatever to get my cd4 count up to what they consider safe line so that I may not have to worry about infection or keep taking bactrim. i am doing everything i can right now to get healthy, mostly eating. i am gaining back weight. thanks for your concerns |
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i know i know there is a study on L gluthathione and if that can be supplied to the gut somehow directly,,, there might be something there.... that could be what you mean by creating situation that is similar to the med. those hiv meds are exactly what you say it is,,,, it supposedly kills lots of things and over work the bone marrow, from my basic understanding. the doc doesn't want me on them for 30-60 days,,, so currently, i am at a very risky time of getting another infection.... brrr... scary....yet i am doing everythign i can that "boosts" immune system and having almost perfect diet if that exist... |
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I hear claims about "boosting the immune system" all the time, and I tell people that if that means a more robust inflammatory response, I don't want it, especially one that does not subside quickly. With many "AIDS" cases, there seems to be a Th1 to Th2 shift, and it's likely due to too much oxidative stress (perhaps significantly enhanced by typical Western diets) and/or too much antigenic exposure. The oxidative stress seems to be able to cause the shift by iteself, and if that is the case, then you can probably correct it fairly easily. Too much antigenic exposure may be a bigger problem, in terms of the "opportunistic infections," and this is where I'd like to see some good research being done. This phenomenon has been known for a very long time, and yet the idea of feeding some lab animals different diets to see if there is a big difference apparently has not dawned upon any researcher who could get funding. But you are worried about something else now, a "marker," one that it's not clear really means much, though I agree that if you have certain symptoms this marker in this case is probably useful. I would be wary of focusing on this marker alone, as if you can do anything to your body so long as you raise your CD4 levels. It's difficult for me to say what I would do, exactly, because I have had so little problems with "infectious diseases" since I got the arachidonic acid out of my cells. I was surprised that eating the rind on the brie seemed to be beneficial, so I'd suggest you try that, in addition to whatever else you decide to do. |
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