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Previous title was wrong so I corrected it here.

I had this thought couple of weeks now. If one can contact animal souls after their passing how ethical that we eat meat? While eating meat wouldn't we get in contact with the very soul of the animal that has been killed to provide that meat?

What are your thoughts on this guys?

I am at work, taking a break after eating, it is 1:05 AM and this is the 15th day of a 15 day stretch of 12 hour nights so as you might imagine I am quite tired and may not make sense at times.

I do eat meat, but I eat to live, just as a bird eats a worm or a lion eats a wildebeast. I don't waste food, either animal or vegetable. I respect the spirit of the animal/plant that provided the food I eat and I thank them for their sacrifice. I believe that the plants have spirits and sentience just as do animals, so I treat them the same.

The problem comes when we treat animals and plants as things rather than as beings. We must respect those who sacrifice for us, just as we honor and respect those who have fought in wars, fought fires, rescued people or animals. We owe them this respect. If we honor and respect the animals and the plants who make this sacrifice for us then they are elevated beyond the status of mere things. This is important to them, everyone likes to be recognized for their sacrifices.

When I am driving and see an animal that has been hit and killed I offer a short prayer for them and thank them for their sacrifice. Hopefully their death will create awareness in the minds of those who see them.

Allow me to ask some questions of you. You asked how ethical is it to eat meat so I ask you, if everyone quit eating meat, what would happen to all of the animals? Who would kill them? What would happen to their carcasses? How many animals would almost immediately become extinct? If they aren't needed they would be eliminated. No one is going to continue to care for them. Wouldn't this mindless destruction be a terrible thing?

I will grant that eliminating meat from everyone's diet would probably aleviate overcrowding since historically, societies that are primarily vegetarian have the shortest life spans and historically, there has never been a totally vegetarian society. But that is just a comment.

I will post Herbas response here as this is the thread. -V

From: <NOBR>

herbaleesta</NOBR>

Sent: 8/31/2007 11:05 PM

I don't think there's a simple answer to this one, Voyager. Many cultures have the belief that they are ingesting the spirit of the animal when they eat it, whether lion, tiger or bear. They are taking into themselves the spirit of the animals they have hunted, killed and are eating.

My reasons for not eating meat are ethical, i.e., I see animals as sentient beings on this planet, and I don't find it honorable that they should die so I can eat their flesh. If I can name it, and look it in the eye, I can't eat it. It's not necessary, and I feel unhappy when I do it.

That said, if I WERE to eat something, it would be fish that I have caught myself, and treated honorably and respectfully, from apologizing to it for the pain, to cooking it as deliciously as it deserves. I haven't done that yet, but I have fished in the past, so I consider it a possibility for the future.

Also, many cultures throughout history have had "communication" with vegetable and mineral spirits, in the western hemisphere, the Corn God, tobacco spirit, etc. I think the truth is that everything eats to live, and that's just the way things work. We eat plants and animals, the animals eat plants and animals, the plants take in nutrients from plant sources, including the results of decomposition of other plants. (Compost, etc.) Does that mean that plants are cannibalistic? Probably so, in a way, but it also means that, ultimately, WE ALL are.

The best I can find to do is to bless and thank whatever I eat, animal, vegetable or mineral, and cook it deliciously and respectfully, with as little waste and as much gratitude as possible.
XOXO
herbalista

--
http://www.patriciaresnick.com
"Some say there IS NO true evil in the universe. Obviously, these are people who have never used plastic wrap."

I think I kind of agree with both Paul and Herba. There is no clear cut answer to this. To clear a point I should say I myself eat meat.

One of the Buddhist monks who I talked to said same thing as Paul. If we become vegatarian - there are farmers who use pesticides would kill lot of small animals and we will be indirectly responsible for their death same as meat providing animals. Then we have to go for the complete organic which is impossible at times. So I think we should practice more practical way of life.

Same monk told me if we pray for the Animal's soul then the Animal's sacrifice has a meaning. The merit of that giving or sacrifice should atributed to animal soul and that sould will benefit from it. As Paul said the same thing I think that is more logical. I think most natives (Aborigines, native Americans ) did the same I guess.

Love and Light to all the animals

I agree with herba and Paul but would like to add another perspective from a practical and health point of view. For me, I do not do well on a strictly vegetarian diet. I begin developing nerve problems and twitching. It could be that there are many others whose systems require meat protein to maintain health and energy. Mostly I eat chicken and fish though enjoy eating game such as elk, moose, and deer when the opportunity presents itself. I prefer all my food to be fresh and not mass "produced." The harshness and lack of regard of animal and plant life in the food industry is enough to make someone consider total abstinance from meat. When I eat, it is to provide sustenance to my body and I am very thankful to the animal or plant that gave its life. This reverance for all life is something that is needed more of.

A friend of mine eased my mind of feeling some guilt while eating meat by saying it is all vegetable. Meaning that generally the meat we eat gets its sustenance from grain, vegetation, insects that eat vegetation, etc. Like us, the animals we consume for our life and health are what they eat. I thought that was an interesting perspective.

What is important is the acknowledgement, respect and gratitude that we show for all life forms whose purpose is to provide nourishment and sustenance.

I found this.- Voyager

Vegetarianism

Summary: An in depth discussion on vegetarianism and the killing of animals.

A student writes:

"Some time ago I wrote to you about vegetarianism or not in the Buddhist lifestyle. Your response to that I think was really that one had to make up ones own mind, with due consideration and then carry on. At the same time I think you were saying that essentially people change as their practice deepens.

At the start of my studies with you I sailed happily into buying a farm with my partner, to set in place a retirement programme. We both view the place as a retreat for ourselves, and hopefully as time goes on, for others also.

Meantime, we were considering the working options and beef cattle seemed to be the way to go for a number of reasons. We now have 10 Belted Galloways and their calves and are learning so much more about herd interactions and mutual care for each other.

We both are wondering how on earth we can choose which animals will be sent for slaughter, But at least the calves have had a life and the herd is on open paddocks and not feed lots.

I see so many hypocrisies, I'm afraid I feel I need to use that word, in saying that to eat meat is acceptable if it has not been killed at your behest�? the industry only exists because it knows that the product is requested by the community.

And if I refuse to eat meat, how do I justify the use of so many end products, all the leather goods and other many things using animal products.

Do vegetarian Buddhists also refuse to use any of those items? For the most part I see a lot of leather shoes."

Lama Shenpen:
Some vegetarians Buddhist or otherwise go that far - I suppose one could look for cows that die naturally and use their skins for leather. Also if one wants to argue that way, using animal products from cows means that cows are kept and give birth to males that are not wanted and then slaughtered. So you could argue it causes suffering to use milk products and so on.
To be honest I feel this is not a battle I personally feel like taking on. The danger with being high minded in this way is that one becomes very attached to concepts and one becomes judgmental and frustrated without in fact helping any beings directly.
If it were a matter of there being no cows in the world and a cow having to be brought into existence to feed my need for milk and then if that led to a male calf being killed then it would be a different matter and a different problem. But it’s not like that. If many people stop eating meat and animal products then less animals are reared and killed. That is good - but I don’t think if I sometimes eat meat that is already killed it is going to make any difference to the world.
On the other hand, I could think that it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t make much difference to the world, because the important thing is to dedicate the punya from making my vow to not eat meat and to keep that vow has a spiritual or karmic benefit that outweighs all practical considerations - then that is wonderful and it is a really good thing to take a vow like that and to keep it. I encourage that.
I must say I find it quite difficult to go along with a kind of gung-ho I love meat mentality as if there was nothing distasteful at all about eating meat. I think this does add to the number of animals being kept and killed and is somehow coarse.
But if people really do suffer from not eating meat (which some people claim) I am not going to judge them - its their choice and their karma. The animals are dead already - so better they are eaten than simply wasted.
As for keeping animals for slaughter - well, I must say I wouldn’t like to have to do that. I think of that each year when I see the lambs and calves so sweetly nuzzling up to their mothers and feel so sad - they love each so much - the mothers and their babies. I couldn’t bear to part them and take them off to be slaughtered. It is so sad.
But for farmers not to do that so many things have to change. I hope they will over time. I love to see the animals in the fields and I don’t know whether it’s worse not to live at all in this world or to come and leave again so swiftly - it cannot be good karma for farmers to send them off to slaughter year after year. Samsara is such a sorry place!
But in your situation I think having gone this far you will be limited in the choices you can make. I think it’s good to think in terms of not being engaged in this industry any longer than you have to - but in the meantime you can pray hard for the animals that you keep and at least this way their life becomes meaningful and you are making good karma to compensate for the bad.
Student:

"On top of that, I see a lack of clarity over the killing if insects in the commercial production of vegetarian food - thousands for every item."

Lama Shenpen:
That is true. That is why it’s not good to get self righteous about being vegetarian. It’s part of what it is to be in samsara for our lives to involve us in bad karma whatever we do. Every animal is host to many other beings too - so whatever we do we end up taking the lives of many other beings.
In the end we just have to choose our battles carefully and lead as harmless a life as we can without getting self righteous and judgmental about it in situations where that is not going to save lives or save anyone from suffering.
It is a very difficult area and we don’t want to be hypocrites and to have double standards. The whole area is a very messy one and it’s important to turn towards it. It has bothered the Buddhist tradition for centuries.
There are sutras in which the Buddha speaks out against meat eating but in the stories of his life and the lives of his great disciples it is clear that they ate meat if it was offered.
In Vajrayana Buddhism in order to cut through our concepts about not wanting to eat unclean food we have to eat meat - it should actually be the kind of meat we think of as impure but usually we use meat that is quite nice and to our taste - which seems to go against the principle - but then we read of many enlightened masters who became enlightened through practising in this way.
I don’t know what to make of that. I cannot help suspecting they became enlightened in spite of eating meat rather than because of eating meat. Many eminent Tibetan Lamas are now speaking out against meat eating and encouraging their students to take a vow against it. I am glad they are doing this. I took a vow once but then Khenpo Rinpoche told me to start eating meat again so I did.
Now I try to only eat it when offered and try to always choose non-meat options. I am not always completely consistent about this I have to admit. I am not proud of the fact but it does seem to cheer up the meat eaters to see me do this. I don’t know what to make of that really. Would it do more good to show more moral fibre? I am not sure. If I were sure I would be much more consistent.
Student:

"I feel confusion over Karma. I know that it’s a complex area but surely these creatures have been born as food beasts or beasts of burden."

Lama Shenpen:
Yes there is that - so maybe they are the farmers who took the lives of animals in their past lives. There is not much comfort in that really is there?
Student:

"When my time comes it comes. So for them, and also a release and a chance to have a more fortunate rebirth?"

Lama Shenpen:
Well there is that - and since that is the situation you are in this is the best way to think.
It is good to do practices specifically for purifying the bad karma you make as you engage in this form livelihood - like meditation on love and compassion and repentance generally for being trapped in samsara from the bad karma accumulated in past lives as well as this.
Also making pranidhanas for their happy rebirth and to be able to help them follow the Dharma in their future lives and so on. You can recite lots of mantras for them so that the sound of Dharma touches them.
It is really good for them that they have a strong connection with you. You can help them in a way nobody else can. You are their connection with the Mandala of Awakening.
SO you can feel happy about that. Very happy!

--- By Lama Shenpen Hookham

Thank you for the above article. It is good to know that I am not the only one to struggle with the ethics of eating meat. It is such a mixed bag. I think it is important not to make judgements about those who do or do not. That in itself may be the biggest test in our spiritual evolution, becoming nonjudgemental of others and their practices. I find it challenging. As far as animals, I too love seeing them standing in the fields, soaring the skies and swimming the streams. They add so much to our life experience on earth and often bring out the big important questions regarding humanity. You have a wonderful way about you, Voyager, in bringing those questions forth and making us think.

Thanks searching. I was thinking about this myself for past few weeks. I noticed when I eat particular meat from particular place I always had some anger and uneasyness in me. I checked the meat source and found it was imported from a certain country which do not have a record of proper handling with animals. I stopped going there since. I also start saying small prayer type thing where I say (As Paul put it) thanks for the meat and the sacrifice they made (animal) as well as merit of that should go to the soul of the animal and help it's journey through this earth.

I have talked with many animals that are 'pets' although mostly they consider themselves to be part of the family. At least they see their humans as their family along with any other animals that live in teh family. I have talked with very few 'farm' animals.

I know that 'pets' tell me they have jobs to do, that there are things that must be done before they are able to cross over. Sometimes this involves great suffering and pain but they gladly go through it if it serves a purpose.

I once was shown an animal crossing over after being abused terribly. It was beaten, ignored and starved to death. I could find nothing good about it's existence or it's death except that it was free of pain. I cried for hours. Yet at the same time the animal explained to me that all this was necessary, that it was endured to cause an action to occur, an awareness to arise. I didn't totally understand since I was still crying from the horror, but now I understand better. It lived and died as it did for a reason adn that was it's task in life.

I feel if food animals, whether wild or domesticated are treated with dignity and awareness of their sacrifice then they would probably tell me that this is their 'task'. I am going to try to talk with some of them and learn more. But in factory farm situations none of this is possible, so the animals are sick, sick to heart adn sick physically and they are not good for us to eat.

I feel that I have a 'task' in life and then I will die. I don't know how I will die, it may be a horrible death or I may die in bed, but I hope that I am allowed to complete my 'task' whatever it is before I die and if so I will die in peace and honor.

We are glad to hear what you find out, please....

That is perfectly agrees with my learnings. As some animals do have some Karmic actiosn to pass (vipaka) for a deed they have commited and they have to go through it which ever the way. Once they have done that they would be free from that Karmic shackle and ready for the next upgraded level. Animal's like Dogs have more chances to do good deeds than others. Horses and elephants also have thses better chances. I learned that it take almost million life times for animal soul to transfer toa human soul. All these acts would go forward to that I suppose.

Thank you, Paul for all the wonderful work you do. This board has been one of my favorites for years. I do have a question about Karma for animals. Does intelligence of the animal's species determine what level they are in serving out their karmic debt. Let's say a poor domestic cattle whose intelligence has been purposely bred out of it is at a lower level on the karmic ladder than a horse, dog, or elephant whose intelligence is high?

From talking with animals, I don't think it is possible to breed out intellegence. I have talked with crows and butterflies and their intellegence level fits them. But the key here is that they can communicate and quite well - I am the one who often has trouble understanding. But that is because I don't know how to talk with them not that they can't communicate.

I'm not sure they would understand "karmic debt". They just view it as a job/purpose and want to complete it and move on. They, animals do not view death as we do, for them it is just the next step in their existence, because they recognize that life continues after death, something mankind doesn't always understand. In fact, I have talked with animals who have recently passed on and they don't really view life as different before or after. I know that doesn't really sound correct, I apologize for I cannot explain without a long explanation and this isn't the time for that.

Regardless, all animals are intellegent, they just display different levels, but it is not that something is wrong, it is just they way they are supposed to be.

I am aware of some creatures in the back yard right now and my dogs upstairs and they are nodding to me as I write this so I feel they are agreeing with me. In fact they just grinned at me.

"they recognize that life continues after death, something mankind doesn't always understand."

I am sorry that it has taken so long to reply. The last couple of weeks have been busy and somewhat emotional.

The reason I asked this question is because of my experience of living near very large cattle ranches. My observation is that humans have selectively and purposely bred out intelligence of the beef cattle, which are in large numbers raised, in order to handle them more easily. What I have witnessed is that a beef cattle raised to be eaten has very different behaviors and level of intelligence than a Jersey milk cow, a Texas Longhorn, Masai cattle, etc. It has been hard to witness the degradation in behavior and its results in these population of cattle that are herded together unceremoniously. And, I got so that I could not watch it anymore and I very rarely eat beef because of it.

As far as intelligence in the animal and insect world, I think there is cat intelligence, dog intelligence, plant intelligence, rock intelligence, bee intelligence, etc. It is expressed very differently from human intelligence. What I find interesting, I have already thought about this before your posts, is that I have a sense that they are intuned with spirit and that they have purpose. Their level of awareness, I don't know except I think that cats are pretty high in awareness and probably animals. I really appreciate you presenting the animals perspective and giving voice to it because it all makes perfect sense to me. I think it probably does not matter the level of an animals IQ at all. They are playing their part in the larger picture as we humans are. And, I think it is beautiful that you are sharing with us their thoughts on this.

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