MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
Chemistry Corner[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Welcome Page  
  About This Site  
  Message Boards  
  General  
  Inorganic  
  Organic  
  Pictures  
  Random  
  FOR ALL  
  Handy Symbols  
  Chemistry Humor  
    
  Documents  
  Chemistry Sites I  
  Chemistry Sites II  
  Chemistry Sites III  
  Organic Sites I  
  Organic Sites II  
  Analytical Sites I  
  Analytical Sites II  
  Lesson Plan Sites  
  Online Problems  
  Names & Formulas  
  Naming Exercises  
  Equations I  
  Equations II  
  Eq. Exercises I  
  Eq. Exercises II  
  The Mole I  
  The Mole II  
  Mole Exercises  
  Stoichiometry  
  Stoich. Exercises  
  More Communities  
  School's Out!  
  _________________  
  Site Map  
  
  
  Tools  
 
Organic : Melting Points
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
 Message 1 of 3 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname88672  (Original Message)Sent: 1/19/2005 6:59 PM
We just finished a lab on melting points and I just want to make sure I did the questions right b/c I'm kind of confused (and the Lab Instructors English is not very good).
#2. 3 samples named x,y, and z possess identical melting points, 148-149C. When a 2:1 mix. of x and y is prepared the melting point is 105-130C. The melting point of 1:1 mix. of x and z is 148-149C.
What does this tell you about the relation ship of the 3 compounds? 
I said that Y and Z are are probably the same compound. 
What would you expect as an approx. melting range for 2:1 mix. of z and y?
It will be lower then 148-149C and have a wider range.
#3. A pure white crystalline compound was found to melt at 112-113C when taken on a Gallenkamp melting point apparatus. The capillary containg the melted compund was set aside to cool. When teh sample was remelted, using the same capillary a melting point of 140-141C was found.
Why did the remelted sample have such a diff. melting point?
When you first melted it, it went froms cyrstals to liquid...and the second time it wasn't in a crystalized form.
#4. You have one sample that is 1mm in height in the cappillary, with a MP of 141-142C. The other sample was 5mm in height in the cappilary, what would you expect for the approx. melting point to be?
It will be around the same temp. but have a larger MP range.
#5. For the same solid above, if the sample was heated at 12C per min. what would you expect for an approx. melting point?
If we heat it too fast it will also remain around the same temp. but have a wider range.


First  Previous  2-3 of 3  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 3 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname·Steve·Sent: 1/20/2005 7:11 AM
2.  Looks OK.  Since the mixture of x and y had a lower m.p., x and y are different compounds.  Since the m.p. of the mixture of y and z was unchanged, y = z as you said.

>> What would you expect as an approx. melting range for 2:1 mix. of z and y? <<

If y and z are the same compound, their mixture melting point should be unaffected whatever the ratio of y and z is.  Perhaps they meant a 2:1 mixture of x and z.  In that case, the melting point should be the same as the 2:1 mixture of x and y, 105-130°.

3.  If the rate of heating is the same, a large, solid mass will take longer to melt than a powdered sample, and thus will have a broader range and won't finish melting until the temperature is higher, since the temperature is increasing constantly during melting.  But in this example, the remelted solid has a higher but sharp m.p. (only 1°), indicating a fairly pure substance.  Thus a chemical change, such as a rearrangement, is a possibility, but the change would have to be a quantitative one (100%), or you would have a mixture that would likely have a lower and broader m.p. range.  This is common when decomposition accompanies heating.  Solvates such as hydrates can lose some or all of the solvent molecules on heating, leaving a less solvated compound which subsequently has a higher melting point.  But I'm inclined to think that some kind of structural change is occurring here.  For example, the compound flavaspidic acid has two forms, a and b.  The a-form melts at 92° and solidifies again at 110°.  The melting point of this solid is now 156°, the same as the b-form of the compound.  (From the Merck Index.)

4.  That's what I'd expect too.

5.  The effect of too rapid of heating depends on the response time of the thermometer compared to the sample capillary tube and sample.  In our lab we use Mel-Temp apparatuses, which have an electrically-heated metal block in contact with the sample capillary and an ordinary glass thermometer.  With these, I've noticed that too rapid of heating gives a low m.p. with a very narrow range.  What happens is the sample heats almost instantaeously, but the large thermometer lags behind because it takes longer to heat.  We don't have Gallenkamp apparatuses, but I get the impression that the response of the temperature sensor is very rapid.  So, if the temperature response of the sensor is immediate and the sample capillary and sample lags a little behind, then I would expect a similar result as yours; a slightly higher melting point with a broader range.

Hope this helps a little!  Good questions, not as straightforward as they first appear!
 

Steve

Reply
 Message 3 of 3 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname88672Sent: 1/20/2005 6:56 PM
Thanks for helping me out. I eventually got all the questions answered on my own but did have trouble with #3. Your answer is REALLY detailed to what we kinda talked about in class so I just mostly said that the compound had changed after it was heated b/c when we first started it was crystallized and then at the end of melting it was like a clear solid (maybe even liquid still?).
Nicole:D