Hi Fran,

You have indeed been busy on my behalf. Many thanks.

 

The 1891 census you found, I had also found, and discounted ... I neglected to mention that Edward (the father) has his occupation as Shepherd on the marriage certificate to Agnes Mary (whilst not impossible, not very likely for a van guard from Camberwell, even though the marriage was some 14 years later)

 

Agnes gives her age on the marriage certificate as 27 years and Thomas as 26 years; which is where the birth date mystery begins ...

 

His death certificate of 1951 clearly states his age as 68 years, therefore born about 1883.

 

If Thomas and Agnes were underage when they married, then I could understand them lying about their ages. Finding Agnes and her family on the census records confirmed her birth date as abt 1875 (and a supporting certificate gives the actual date as 15 Nov 1875) this would actually make her 30 years old at her marriage and not 27 years old as given. Agnes definitely died on 13 Oct 1941 in Edmonton. This leads me to thinking that Thomas lied about his age at his first marriage, stating he was older than he actually was, perhaps because he was under the "of full age" limit at only 22 years as suggested by his death certificate.

 

This was one of the reasons I didn't order the 1879 birth certificate from Camberwell - it is still not clear when he was born. Checking the 1883/4 BMD records was not much help either. There are quite a few matches, but a lot can be dismissed by matching death records of infants under 2 years old ... leaving a few, but none that can be found with any certainty, as matching in the census records - so frustrating.

 

It isn't helpful that his second marriage was unpopular with his children. They had very little contact with Thomas after his second marriage. My friend's father, who was Thomas's grandson, remembers visiting him "at a big house with huge gardens" and feels sure this was at Mapledurham, where Thomas died in service. His second wife Jessie, buried him before notifying his family of his death and disappearing without trace ...

 

Short of ordering all the possible birth certificates from both 1879 and 1883, I can see no quick solution; unless of course ..... anyone out there knows better?

 

Thanks for your time and effort Fran, I appreciate it.

 

Regards

Janice

 

PS: Sorry you have had to post 5 messages before I came back to you - I have had my nose in a book the last couple of days, and the pc has been somewhat neglected ...