Hi Sheila

 

This is Kay and I will see if I can help you trace your ancestor.

 

I've been looking at the various census records and discovered that on the 1891 census John's mother is recorded as Maria born in 1828 Bacop, Lancs but in the 1901 she is recorded as Ann M born in 1828 Bacop, Lancs.  From the 1901 census I would guess her name was Ann Maria.

 

I know you say you have the death certificate for Ellen Holden but just thinking how names can vary from census to census.  At the risk of insulting your intelligence, are you happy that the name of the informant on the death certificate is John Holden, husband of Ellen?  We'll assume that you are and work from there!

 

What I'm really driving at, is, are you happy the death certificate you've obtained is actually for the correct individual and that Ellen and Martha aren't the same person - this is only based on my thoughts regarding their year and place of birth.

 

Would I be correct in saying that Ellen's maiden name was Holt?

 

Sorry to question you on these details but I'm eager to see if we can locate Martha for you!

 

Perhaps you'll get back to me on this and I'll see if I can find anything for you.

 

Kay

Manager

 

 

Hi Kay

Ann Maria & Maria are the same person, and she is the mother of Henry Born 1856.  in Bacup. 

Regarding Ellen

Ellen Holt   Born   Milkstone 1856 to James & Ellen Holt (formely Brieriey)

Ellen married Henry Holden in 1873

Ellen Holden     Died   1892   Henry present at 14 Channing St.  Which is where they were on the 1891 Census  I have the Birth & death Certificates for Ellen, also her Marriage certificate.

Ellen & Henry's second child was James Henry my patrners Grandfather, so we know this information is right.

Sheila

Hi again Sheila

 

Well, like you I've checked marriages between 1891 and 1901 for Henry Holden but no obvious one forthcoming with a Martha A.

 

Bearing in mind the stigma attached, in those days, to people co-habiting, I wonder if at the time of the 1901 census Henry and Martha weren't actually married, although it shows as if they were.  It's only a thought of course and on that basis I went on to look for marriage later on.  I came across the following:

 

Surname	First name(s)		District	Vol	Page
Marriages Jun 1907   (>99%)

HOLDEN	Henry		Wigan	8c	154
JONES	Martha		Wigan	8c	154

 

 

On the thought you had about Martha being a sister, I did check earlier censuses when Henry could have been living at home with parents to see if there was a sibling listed as Martha but alas I couldn't find one that would fit with birth years and areas for two siblings.

 

Anyway, see what you think about the possibility of them being married after the 1901 and let me know.

 

Kay

Manager

 

Hi Kay

I did think the same as you they said they were married because of the stigma of not being married.

Henry was born in Rochdale and lived all his life there, it says on the 1901 Census that Martha was born in Rochdale

Why go to Wigan to marry it's a long way from Rochdale?

Henry had a Brother Samuel born in 1862 but no Sister Samuel in on the 1881 Cencus with his Mother at 5 League St his Father died in 1878.

Maybe we will never find Martha.

Thank you

Sheila

Well, we don't know why they may have married in Wigan - I can only think either they were ashamed of the stigma of marrying locally where perhaps everyone believed them to already be married or secondly that perhaps during the 1901 census and that marriage record, they had moved.  It's only supposition of course and perhaps you'll never know - if indeed it's the correct couple. 

 

If I can think of anything more to help you trace Martha, naturally I will post it here.

 

Kay

Manager

Hi Kay

As you say maybe they did go to Wigan to ger married because of the stigma, but in 1904 when Henry's Mother died they were liveing at 13. Wellfield St Rochdale, I have her Death Cert, and thats where my partner's Father was born.

As you say we may never find her.

 

Thank you for your help

Sheila

Yes I agree it all sounds very unlikely but I thought it was worth mentioning - always have to consider every avenue.

 

As I say, if I think of anything more which may help I'll naturally let you know.

 

Kay

Manager