Mickhall Senior Member   Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: england Posts: 281

Re: Tylerguy et all Setanta747 In many ways I feel desperately sorry for you, You seem to feel it is normal in a democratic society to avoid discussing politics with your neighbours, for fear if you do things will get heated, You seem to believe that "aside for the troubles" what you call northern Ireland is a normal society. As if it is possible or indeed logical to divorce the troubles from daily life. When someone makes a point you feel under no obligation to answer it truthfully, nor show any respect to your fellow countrymen and women who fought for centuries to remove the English states boot from their backs. Did you never do basic British history whilst at school. You know Elisabeth the first, Cromwell, etc., etc. For you all life starts and finishes with partition, your for it so you are not obligated to justify it no matter that the majority of your fellow Irish men and women oppose it. Instead you cheerfully throw statistic off the top of your head, which have no bases in fact and then when they are revealed as nonsense, you seem to feel a simple apology is all that is needed. You have done this on more than one occasion when posting to this list. Your arguments about the nationalist community never having received harsh treatment by the governing forces in the north is not only silly but insulting to your neighbours and extremely provocative in the most childish way. Im tempted to say grow up, but I fear you will still be behaving in the same mean spirited and bitter manner when your old and grey. And this is what makes me feel sorry for you most of all. Mick

Tylerguy Junior Member   Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Derby, Kansas Age: 18 Posts: 24

Re: Tylerguy et all Quote: Originally Posted by Setanta747 Quite right - my memory served me wrong. Apparently the number of civilian deaths amounted to approximately 34% of all IRA murders. 69% of the UDA murders were of civilians. 88% of UFF murders were of civilians. 84% of UVF murders were civilians. But, as I'm sure you can appreciate, British security forces are much more visible. Therfore it was easier for the IRA to be specific, when they chose to be. Not that any of that condones murder for religious or political 'causes.' I condemn all of the 3,500+ murders. Except possibly the terrorist vs terrorist ones, such as the Loyalist or Republican internal feuds. I cited a web page to back my claims, i asked if you could do the same, not toss out numbers arbitrarily. Also, are you saying that if the British forces where to withdraw they would have to start shooting civilians to like meet a quota or something? Excuse me but that’s ridiculous. Quote: It is not a war. The IRA have not declared war on the British people. All they have done is plant bombs in secret to destroy the economy, innocent Irish peoples' lives, and many British Army personell who were reinforced in Northern Ireland to protect its people from terrorist offences. That and their continued racketeering and so-called 'punishment beatings' that nobody has given them the right to do. Let them put it to the vote, and see just what percentage of Northern Ireland's population are in support of the campaign. Or even to an all-Ireland or UK vote. You can be sure those for the violence would number very small. The IRA was at war with the English government and its forces of occupation, you can say no it wasn't over and over again but we wont get anywhere. "All they do is plant bombs to destroy the economy and Kill people" Sound like things that happen in a war to me. Look at any war and these are things that happen, the fire bombing of Berlin/Tokyo in WW2, a civilian city, struck for reason of causing economic strain on the enemy. And you want to put it to a vote? Ok, maybe not for violence, violence is a means to an end, the people you say support "violence" are the supporters of a cause or idea. So while its true that not everyone may support "violence," I can guarantee that if the Island nation of Ireland were to vote for the unification of Ireland under a united republic, free from British rule, that the outcome would be yes. Bringing us too... Quote: But it is. Back in 1921, remember? The Anglo-Irish Treaty was signed in ... 1920 was it..? This let 26 counties of Ireland separate from the rest of us and form what was then the Free State. Consequently, that part of Ireland which remained within the UK, became Northern Ireland - with its own devolved government within the UK. ------ Treated differently? What do you mean? Differently than who/what? When I mentioned a majority, I was talking about the Irish people, such as myself, who are native to this land. ---- Again - you show ignorance of unionism here. What has an English household got to do with Irish Unionists? I can only apologise that you completely missed my point. As for your ridiculous suggestion that we "widdle" (perhaps whittle would have been a better choice of word) NI down.. well I don't need to tell you, surely, what a nightmare that would be with red tape and the economic well-being of the people of Northern Ireland. One, allow me to congratulate you on spotting my satirical remark on how ridiculous it is to arbitrarily divide a country based on how they feel politically and make them independent nations, and assume i was actually suggesting that. As well as pointing out the "whittle" typo, hey when you cant win an argument attacking someone’s credibility through grammatical corrections is the next best thing, right? BTW: apologize, personnel, and therefore. As you were saying about the partition of the island in 1920. That was my point, who gave them this right to split up the country along those lines, they hold no historical value or reason to be treated differently. It's as absurd as splitting up a country every election based on who voted for who, rather then treating it as a whole. And as for that last bit about me being "ignorant of unionism" I was merely using it as an example of someone who would want to remain part of the UK, not a microscopic representation of all unionism. and in my example they happened to be British nationalist.

Setanta747 Senior Member   Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 272

Re: Tylerguy et all Quote: Originally Posted by Mickhall Setanta747 In many ways I feel desperately sorry for you, You seem to feel it is normal in a democratic society to avoid discussing politics with your neighbours, for fear if you do things will get heated, You seem to believe that "aside for the troubles" what you call northern Ireland is a normal society. But that is indeed the case Mick. And I have no problem discussing politics with anyone who cares to bring the subject up. Quote: As if it is possible or indeed logical to divorce the troubles from daily life. Again - this is the case for the vast majority of people that live here. The number of apolitical people, both Catholics and non-Catholics here, might surprise you. Quote: When someone makes a point you feel under no obligation to answer it truthfully, nor show any respect to your fellow countrymen and women who fought for centuries to remove the English states boot from their backs. I'm afraid you've got me confused with someone else here Mick. I am never less then honest and open. Whilst I am on occassion in error - I am only too aware of my human failings in that respect. For my fellow countrymen and women who have "fought for centuries to remove the English boot," I give them as much respect as I give my fellow countrymen who have fought for their right to remain British also. Butmost especially, I have great respect for my fellow people for having to put up with mad terrorists for the past 30 years. Quote: Did you never do basic British history whilst at school. You know Elisabeth the first, Cromwell, etc., etc. For you all life starts and finishes with partition, your for it so you are not obligated to justify it no matter that the majority of your fellow Irish men and women oppose it. I'm sorry - I wasn't alive before the 1960s. I'm not saying that the history of my own ancestors isn't relevant. But I live in the here and now... I live with what the past has created now. Quote: Instead you cheerfully throw statistic off the top of your head, which have no bases in fact and then when they are revealed as nonsense, you seem to feel a simple apology is all that is needed. Other than the 50/50 recently on this thread - which I did indicate was "off the top of my head," any statistics I post are from reliable, unbiased sources. I can't help it that you get your statistics from a pro-Republican website and then expect them to be The Truth. Quote: You have done this on more than one occasion when posting to this list. Your arguments about the nationalist community never having received harsh treatment by the governing forces in the north is not only silly but insulting to your neighbours and extremely provocative in the most childish way. I never, on any occassion, suggested that any "nationalist community" had or had not received harsh treatment from the "governing forces" in "the north." I did however ask you to point out how this has been so. You talk about me being childish .. but look at your own use of language. In a rather petty and childish way, you constantly refuse to type the words Northern Ireland, unless it is surrounded by quotes. Even Sinn Féin politicians have no problem these days with saying it. You talk of "the north" or "the six counties" identifying it seperately, when Northern Ireland is its given name. You talk about insulting, but never once stop to think how it might insult me that you refer to my own part of the country in this childish manner. And you say this from your home in England too. To me that is gall! I have told you that the problems of the Troubles don't only affect Roman Catholics or nationalists or Republicans, which you constantly ignore. You, and others here, constantly make assumptions or generalisations about people from the Protestant or unionist community. This only serves to sully the good name of Protestantism and Unionism - making it seem to the casual reader that all of them are somehow, along with the rest of the British, inherantly evil. And it is truly patronising coming from someone who is living in England or the USA. You constantly refute my opinions, statments, statistics and facts and show that you are not willing to enter into rational discussion with someone who is of an opposing political view. If that doesn't work, you simply ignore what I have said or cast aspertions on myself by making the assumption for example, that I do not talk to my neighbours and fellow countrymen and women. You seem also to accept that the terrorism and voilence Northern Ireland has suffered in the past 30 years is justified for various reasons, when it has been shown that the vast majority of us who actually live here are SICK of it. SICK of the murders and the bombings and the punishment beatings and the racketeering. You defend the IRA for example, by suggesting that as only 10.5% (your figure - which is, by the way wrong) of the people they have murdered were civilian, is somehow acceptable. But its not. And the people here tell you this time and time again. And you point out only the bad points of my "wretched statelet" without once considering the benefits that Northern Ireland has enjoyed by staying within the UK. Quote: Im tempted to say grow up, but I fear you will still be behaving in the same mean spirited and bitter manner when your old and grey. And this is what makes me feel sorry for you most of all. Alas Mick, I am not the one who looks back in history to find events to be angry about. I do not let what happened to my ancestors fester into a hatred for either the English or the Roman Catholics. The laugh of it is Mick, that I am not bitter or mean-spirited. And I don't think anything I have said on this forum has proven otherwise.

Setanta747 Senior Member   Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 272

Re: Tylerguy et all Firsly, let me suggest that moving this thread to general is perhaps inappropriate, as the discussions within are deeply political. However, you're the moderator Seadog.   Quote: Originally Posted by Tylerguy I cited a web page to back my claims, i asked if you could do the same, not toss out numbers arbitrarily. Try the CAIN website Tyler.   Quote: Also, are you saying that if the British forces where[sic] to withdraw they would have to start shooting civilians to like meet a quota or something? Excuse me but that’s ridiculous. I don't follow you. It seems to me that you're putting words into my mouth, yes?   Quote: I can guarantee that if the Island nation of Ireland were to vote for the unification of Ireland under a united republic, free from British rule, that the outcome would be yes. Bringing us too... That may be so Tyler. But, asides from my belief that the people of Northern Ireland should be asked about any idea of a change in its constitution first, still the people of the island have voted AGAINST violence - by a huge majority. So a 'war' is not wanted. Sinn Féin and the IRA have also recognised this - thus the ceasefire.   Quote: As you were saying about the partition of the island in 1920. That was my point, who gave them this right to split up the country along those lines, they hold no historical value or reason to be treated differently. Actually that is an argument in itself. It is well-known that Ulster always considered itself different in many ways to the rest of the island. And before you say it, I am perfectly aware of the status of the counties Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal. What or who gave "them" the right to split up the island? The people I assume. There was much resistance to a split from the UK. As a compromise, the Anglo-Irish Treaty signed over 26 of the counties as an independant state. This was agreed to by all interested parties.   Quote: It's as absurd as splitting up a country every election based on who voted for who, rather then treating it as a whole. Indeed. And yet this is similar to what happened when the 26 counties were split from the country in the first place.   Quote: And as for that last bit about me being "ignorant of unionism" I was merely using it as an example of someone who would want to remain part of the UK, not a microscopic representation of all unionism. and in my example they happened to be British nationalist. British Nationalist? That'll be unionists then. But you still specifically mentioned a "stoutly English household."

seadog Moderator   Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,205

Re: Tylerguy et all Well Setanta ... Will you kindly give me marks out of ten for removing the post from the Bloody Sunday thread ... And then, maybe give me marks out of ten for selecting this thread? Please, please don't keep me waiting too long.

seadog Moderator   Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,205

Re: Tylerguy et all Setanta Mickhall posted: "Did you never do basic British history whilst at school. You know Elisabeth the first, Cromwell, etc., etc. For you all life starts and finishes with partition, your for it so you are not obligated to justify it no matter that the majority of your fellow Irish men and women oppose it." To which you replied: "I'm sorry - I wasn't alive before the 1960s. I'm not saying that the history of my own ancestors isn't relevant. But I live in the here and now... I live with what the past has created now." So what makes you decide when it is suitable to bring ancient (and not so ancient) Irish history into debates? Are you saying that it's not relevant to the current conflict? Sounds like a childish stamping of feet and folding of arms reaction to me.

neon007 Member   Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: America Age: 49 Posts: 90

Re: Tylerguy et all Oh my, you still seem to amaze me with your logic Setanka. I will ask you again your religious affiliation? You really sound like most of the protestants that feel everything is just peachy keen in NI. So far from the truth. What planet do you reside on or are you just blind. Respect, Neon

Setanta747 Senior Member   Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 272

Re: Tylerguy et all Quote: Originally Posted by seadog Well Setanta ... Will you kindly give me marks out of ten for removing the post from the Bloody Sunday thread ... And then, maybe give me marks out of ten for selecting this thread? Please, please don't keep me waiting too long. Oh absolutely - this thread, as far as I know, nothing to do with Bloody Sunday as yet. But I was just saying that Im' not sure it belongs in General.

Setanta747 Senior Member   Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 272

Re: Tylerguy et all Quote: Originally Posted by seadog By the way Setanta - was this a slip of the tongue, or a slip of the veil? "British Nationalist? That'll be unionists then." As in BNP and UUP? Mmmmm! Nope - it was neither a slip of the tongue, or of a veil. I don't really consider the BNP as British Nationalists, despite the name they give themselves. Or, to put it another way, I respect the fact that there are British Nationalists who are not racist, or violent or militant... much the same way as I respec the fact that there are unionists, nationalists and republicans here who do not believe in violence and are not racist. How quick we are to jump at that kind of conclusion though. It is well known that certain loyalist organisations have some solid links to the far right, and to these types of organisations. But I am not a loyalist.

Setanta747 Senior Member   Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 272

Re: Tylerguy et all Quote: Originally Posted by neon007 Oh my, you still seem to amaze me with your logic Setanka. I will ask you again your religious affiliation? You really sound like most of the protestants that feel everything is just peachy keen in NI. So far from the truth. What planet do you reside on or are you just blind. Respect, Neon Well I'm hardly likely to give you an answer to a personal question if you take that kind of attitude neon007. Oh, and I should remind you that there are no Protestants that believe everything is "just peachy keen" in Northern Ireland. Perhaps you've not seen the news stories or read the history on your particular planet. The name is Setanta by the way.

Setanta747 Senior Member   Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 272

Re: Tylerguy et all Quote: Originally Posted by seadog So what makes you decide when it is suitable to bring ancient (and not so ancient) Irish history into debates? Are you saying that it's not relevant to the current conflict? Sounds like a childish stamping of feet and folding of arms reaction to me. In the context of what was being discussed - the present - I elected that the history is.. or at least [i]should[/i] be irrelevant. We are where we are now, and none of us have a time machine to fix the past as we would have liked, or as would suit our political agenda for today.

Thanks for sharing?   

History, imo, needs to be recognized. Sadly, it can be a two edged sword. On one side, you can learn and avoid the mistakes of the past. On the other, you can burn and seek revenge of the mistakes of the past.

However, your point of what can we do "today" is worthy of much consideration.

Better men than I have failed to calm the storm. I pray you well upon your endeavors

 

 

 

Thanks for your comments .. mucho appreciated :)

 

Rua - are you talking about the French?  I though we won that one!