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General : posts from the NARCISSIST group
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 Message 1 of 110 in Discussion 
From: Grace  (Original Message)Sent: 9/29/2007 9:22 PM
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameLibraryRebecca1</NOBR> Sent: 9/29/2007 11:59 AM
So many good questions, difficult if not impossible to answer--I have a 20-year-old son and a 17-year-old daughter, who has chosen to live with her dad this Senior year of high school.  I'm sure he took her so that he wouldn't have to pay me child support.  I was a stay-at-home mom for 16 years, until I realized what was going on in our marriage and that I would need to support myself.  But your daughter sounds very much like mine, totally focused only on herself, not caring about other people.  And her dad lets her be like that.  He demands nothing of her, lets her do whatever she wants, lets her go wherever she wants, and is more concerned about being a friend than a father.  Bad news for a teenager.  But I do believe that Ns "love" their children as much as they can love anyone.  I don't think it's love in the normal sense of the word.  I think they care about their children, but they care more about themselves.  So, is that love?  No, not really, but I think it's the best they can do.  If my children realize this, I hope it will not destroy them.  If I see them starting down that path to self-destruction, I would at that point, talk to them about it if they would talk to me.  Right now, my daughter has great disdain for me, I think because her dad told them that it was my fault, that I broke the family apart, because I am the one who filed for divorce, after he had been gone from the house for two years, and after my becoming very ill, and after he had many affairs, and after he took all the money.  I did not tell my children those things.  Maybe I should; I don't know.  I just know that it would cause them further pain.  But if they ever do want to know the truth, I would tell them.  I think they have to want to know, though, and be willing to face it.  I don't think it's wise to force the truth on them if they don't want to know.  Will it destroy them to learn about their dad?  I hope that after the initial devastation, that they can come to peace, knowing that it is not that they are unloveable; it is that their father is not capable.  I hope that my unconditional love for them will be enough for them to realize that their father is damaged, that they (the children) are NOT their father, they have the capacity to love and they are deserving of love.   If they will not listen, or will not hear, I don't know what else a mother can do, other than to always be there for them if they should come around.  I would not put myself in a position to be abused by my daughter, if she turns out to be like her father.  Nobody deserves to be treated like that.  It sounds like you are doing all that you possibly can for your daughter.  We can not change who they are, even as much as we love them, we cannot change them.  It's hard to accept that.  But I would encourage you to let it go until she reaches out for you, and be there at that point.  If she never does, it's very sad, but you can't let it ruin your life.  You gave her life and love; it's up to her what she does with it.  I just finished a book called "Leota's Garden".  It's a Christian book, about a woman in her 80's who is dying, whose daughter always seemed to hate her.  There were family dynamics and misunderstandings.  The older lady dies, but in her last years, she finds peace in her daughter's daughter, who takes care of her.  It gave me hope that, even though life can be so painful at times, we can still find love and beauty in unexpected places.  I wish you peace.
Rebecca

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Recommend  Message 7 of 7 in Discussion 
From: gentlemom Sent: 9/29/2007 1:31 PM
 
"so I've resorted to not thinking about it as much anymore, and just focus on getting on with my life, and making occassional contact to be sure she knows I love her.   I can't  let myself "need" anymore from her than what we have... because that only hurts myself... and puts me right dab back into the pull of the illness itself".    
 
Yes GS, that is all I do too & just hope one day for a better tomorrow. I guess we are both moving in the very same direction.
 
Rebecca
I understand your feelings too. I am the one who is finally filing for divorce after a 12yr seperation. She hates me for it because I am demanding retribution for the lost pension money I would have had if we were together. This, I know is why she went back to be with him, to help him financially. She just doesn't see that he has no money because he can't manage it properly - he never has.
 
He owns his own home compared to my outrageous rent payments (if anyone knows anything about Alberta - no rent control). He retired so I would end up with less when the support amount is finally settled. He blames all of that on me as well. So she takes it upon herself to help support him. Little does she know that I took every "garbage" job I could do, when we were married, just to make ends meet. Meanwhile, he was making some major wages & told me nothing, of course. Isn't that just typical "N" behavior?
 
Again, what is there to do in the end, but, hope that one day she understands that when I said to her "be careful or he will just turn you into a substitute for me" that I meant every word I said.
 
Wow! Thanks GS for starting this thread. I have never said so much about her until now. It sure feels good to know that people are listening. I have done so much to bring myself back to life, but, you are so right, there is nothing I can do for her.
 
Gentlemom


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 Message 96 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/25/2009 4:59 AM
IMPORTANT:
 
"Giving up a destructive relationship is difficult. The brief moments of validation are cherished, and the person who finally leaves must relinquish the hope of "earning" more.
 
When the person finally breaks free they are faced with an immediate and lasting feeling of emptiness and self-blame that makes them question their decision. "If only I had been different or better--then I would have been valued," is the usual refrain.
 
Once the old relationship is sufficiently grieved, the person immediately resumes their search for another partner/lover with the qualifications and authority to again secure him or her a "place" in the world.
Ironically, this "repetition compulsion" is hardly masochistic. Instead, it represents an ongoing attempt to heal the self, albeit one with disastrous results. The cycle repeats itself because the person knows no other way of preventing themselves from feeling tiny or immaterial. "
 
 

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 Message 97 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/25/2009 5:02 AM
Now starts the journey of finding YOUR OWN VOICE: finding about who you really are, saying just what you mean and finding a group just like this wonderful board who will accept you for who you are, and tell you what you are saying and what you are feeling are all true, that its okay, that YOU are okay , that you do have a voice, your own unique voice and you are being heard ! You are being heard, we acknowledge you and you are 100% okay and you are wonderful !

Now you also start the journey of validating your self - we don't need an N to validate us anymore. Now its a journey of doing things for yourself, feeling good about who you are and loving your self, just the way you are. You have wonderful treasures within you, waiting for you to explore.

But I know, its easier said than done. It won't happen overnight. Through our FOO and N-experience, we've been beaten so badly, we begin to beat ourselves daily. Write about how you feel, write here, the wise souls on this board will guide you through this journey of healing, self discovery and self-validation.

(((((hugs)))))
JL

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 Message 98 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/25/2009 5:24 AM
It's such a struggle to quit. It's so hard to finally recognize that self love is the answer. And what does that look like? Well, for starters, it looks like no contact, because contact means they can abuse us. And we have to protect ourselves from abuse. Pure and simple. Waiting for the "parent figure" to do it, didn't work. We have to take up the gauntlet and do it ourselves. Pure and Simple.

Reply
 Message 99 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/25/2009 1:45 PM
You can't move on if you live in the past.

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 Message 100 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/25/2009 1:49 PM
It's nice to know I'm not the only one feeling this way...
 
 
I don't have a family now but maybe I could at least have a family of friends again or something. I sure hope so.

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 Message 101 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/26/2009 3:13 AM
Then also Ns use nice stuff as a way of controlling others and staying on top of the situation. It keeps others questioning themselves and off-balance.

And then there is that self-image they want to present to others and themselves. When they do something "nice" for you, probably what is going through their minds is not you, but how generous, kind, noble, and wonderful THEY are.

So, as hard as it is to do, we ultimately need to look at all those "nice" gestures as just so much stuff n' nonsense-manipulative, self-serving, and also just human.

Reply
 Message 102 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/26/2009 3:15 AM
A Narcissists charming behaviour lasts as long as they get what they want from you i.e. that you provide evidence to confirm their view of themselves as special. In any relationship where people spend a lot of time together it is normal for the parties involved to notice the others bad habits and behaviours. To some degree it is normal behaviour for people to point these bad habits and behaviours out to the other person in order to try and improve the relationship. Narcissists do not react kindly to this, they see it as an attack on their perfection. As a result of this their behaviour starts to change. The lovely person you know will start to disappear as the damaged part of them emerges, the things they do to impress you will become fewer and farther between, you will start to feel less and less special to them as they start to treat you badly and show their frustrations (overtly or covertly) at your inability to meet their needs more frequently. This is known as your "Devaluation".

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 Message 103 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/27/2009 3:29 AM
more replies off the "Voiceless" thread...
 
 
Hi Change9

"Ironically it sounds like the Japanese, have more creativity and individuality now then Americans do, I think back to the 80s even and realize people dressed more differently then they do now. Where is the spirit of fun or being an individual now in America?"

I now think you Americans are now on the right path....the path to caring for each other and becoming a community again...I've looked at the Obama speeches on the White House link on Youtube...how cool is that!!!! The message now is working towards community NOT looking out for number one (which stank) and you have been brainwashed with for god knows how long. This is really empowering and as Obama said...and any teacher/good mother knows, is essential for a sense of pride and well being and connection and purpose and essential for self esteem and individual confidence. Creativity and new ideas will thrive.....how come all the most creative musicians and some of the best independent film makers come from here??? Because its nurtured.

"I used to be a goth, totally gothed out, wore nothing but black for 4 years in my early 20s.
Into the music big time and more. Wore the hair, the clothes, the jewelrey. Even used to subscribe to Propaganda..LOL Bit different now being Christian."

I'm going to be extremely controversial. Well here on this board I'm going to be controversial - noone would bat an eyelid in my secular country. I'm not saying don't believe it if works for you but I am saying that IMO the American church system has been the tool of the state to keep people from questioning and being individual and having their OWN VOICE!! So many sad examples here of oppression by the church...particularly of women. I was so glad Obama (as Coolio said in the Celebrity Big Brother house in the UK) included non-believers in his address for the first time. Was he REALLY the first president to say this??? Staggering. What a turn up for the books. When my non N ex first told me 3 years ago that the US was controlled by the church as well as being controllled by a few white men who wanted to control the world. I didn't believe him. Now I do.

This is a really interesting lecture (its short - 7min - and several years old but boy did he have it right)....but Americans have now found their voice and I love you!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk8pxyAWTBk

Noone thought they had any power...how does that compare to an N relationship??? I don't need to tell you!!

As far as our country goes? Prince Charles is 'supposed' to be 'Defender of the Faith' (ie the Anglican church that was the narcissistic Henry 8th's invention to wriggle out of marriage and grab the next woman in line he lusted after). Prince Charles has openly declared he is the 'Defender of ALL Faiths' which includes muslims of course...he is a great friend of muslims, which the traditionalists in the church didn't like one bit of course. In my opinion he no more believes in god than I do....but he can't say so. He likes trees....all power to him...quietly and discreetly he does a hell of a lot of good deeds for groups of underprivileged people and cares deeply about architure, town planning, the affect of big business and the environment and is a thoroughly nice chap.

Scarlet



Reply
 Message 104 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/27/2009 3:48 AM
CommN,

Not sure if this article will help - but reading your post brings this Richard Grossman article back to my mind, see what you think :

Little Voices

from : http://www.voicelessness.com/littlevoices.html

If parents do not enter a young child's world, but instead require him or her to enter theirs to make contact, the resulting damage can last a lifetime. In "Voicelessness: Narcissism," I presented one way adults react having experienced this scenario in childhood: they constantly try to re-inflate their leaky "self." However, different temperaments spawn different adjustments: some children, by their very nature, are incapable of aggressively seeking attention. If no one is entering their world, they unconsciously employ a different strategy. They diminish their voice, make as few demands as possible, and bend themselves like a pretzel to fit their parents world.

To secure their place in the family, these children often become expert in intuiting their parents' feelings and moods and automatically responding in ways they deem helpful. In effect, they become good parents to their own parents.

What happens when these children enter adulthood? Depending on personality and history, there are different possibilities. Here are two:

Some become gentle, sensitive, and non-assuming adults. They are also generous and caring, often volunteering for charitable organizations, animal shelters, and the like. Frequently they feel other people's pain as if it were their own, and are racked by guilt if they cannot somehow relieve this distress. Many seem to tiptoe in and out of rooms. Unfortunately these qualities also allow them to be used and abused by other people, for they are unable to stop giving without feeling they are bad or unworthy. Having a secure "place" and providing for others' emotional needs are inextricably woven together. If they are not providing, they feel they are no longer part of anyone's world, and they have no value to anyone. Their self-esteem is completely dependent upon responding to others needs. In extreme cases, their "voicelessness" is so complete, so consuming, these "little voices" literally are silent for long periods of time. This is not a form of passive aggressive behavior (as has often been suggested) or even a retreat from relationships. Unless asked direct questions, they simply can't think of anything to say. "What do you want?" (now, this week, this year, during your lifetime) is impossible for them to answer. Early in their childhood they stopped wanting because no one paid any attention to their wishes. Their place in life was to know what everyone else wanted--this is the only place they felt comfortable and unthreatened.

Other "little voices" ultimately become aware that they have sacrificed their independence, their "voice," in bending around others, and become negative and bitter. They are exceptionally sensitive to what they perceive as the non-responsiveness of people around them--precisely because they compare their own generous nature to the words and actions of others. Almost everyone comes up short. As a result, they are viewed by others as "critical" and difficult to get along with. They are easily slighted and prone to angry outbursts. The theme of their anger is often: look what I've done for you, and look what I get back. And yet they are trapped, because if they stop anticipating everyone's needs they feel invisible. Sometimes, these "little voices" live with (or close to) their demanding and unappreciative parents until the parents die; they deeply resent siblings who managed to escape.

"Little voices" are the polar opposites of narcissists. The former relinquishes all "voice," while the latter gobbles it up. When the two are matched in a relationship, the potential for physical and emotional abuse is high. Domestic violence cases often involve "little voices" and "narcissists." Yet, the under-entitlement of "little voices" and over-entitlement of narcissists are both methods of adapting to the same phenomenon: childhood "voicelessness." Interestingly, the same voice-depriving family can produce "little voices" and "narcissists." Why is this so? Genetic factors probably play the biggest role. Narcissism requires aggression, "little voice," passivity. Birth order may also count: if one child strives aggressively for family resources, it is that much harder for the next in line to compete using a similar method. "

Also, check out his other article on Voicelessness: Narcissism

http://www.voicelessness.com/narcissism.html

Reply
 Message 105 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/27/2009 3:50 AM
Me.... (from post above)...
 
 Having a secure "place" and providing for others' emotional needs are inextricably woven together. If they are not providing, they feel they are no longer part of anyone's world, and they have no value to anyone. Their self-esteem is completely dependent upon responding to others needs. In extreme cases, their "voicelessness" is so complete, so consuming, these "little voices" literally are silent for long periods of time. This is not a form of passive aggressive behavior (as has often been suggested) or even a retreat from relationships. Unless asked direct questions, they simply can't think of anything to say. "What do you want?" (now, this week, this year, during your lifetime) is impossible for them to answer. Early in their childhood they stopped wanting because no one paid any attention to their wishes. Their place in life was to know what everyone else wanted--this is the only place they felt comfortable and unthreatened.
 
 

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 Message 106 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 1/28/2009 2:10 AM
from the "red flags" thread...
 
4. He would always make references to what his father said, always quoting his father, as if he had no ideas of his own or something. It also seemed whenever he referred to people they were more like objects to him then people, he would say so and so has a good moral compass and that is why I admire him and blah, blah, it sounded as if he were talking about a shoe or a car and it's qualities.
 
I remember always wondering at  how often Robin quoted something I said, or how I felt about something....
 
.... was he "using" me in that way too?   It makes sense... he didn't have the "correct" attitude/belief/insight etc on his own, and had to use mine... just like the person states above.
 
Another mystery solved.....

Reply
 Message 107 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 2/1/2009 10:21 PM
when they decide it is over they just ignore you like you never existed and move on.
There is no closure or formal good-bye.

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 Message 108 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 2/1/2009 10:41 PM

Rage gives place to sadness. It is the sadness of the trapped animal, an existential angst mixed with acute depression. It involves dysphoria (inability to rejoice, to be optimistic, or expectant) and anhedonia (inability to experience pleasure or to find meaning in life). It is a paralysing sensation, which slows one down and enshrouds everything in the grey veil of randomness. It all looks meaningless and empty.

This, in turn, gives place to gradual acceptance, renewed energy, and bouts of activity. The narcissist is gone both physically and mentally. The void left in his wake still hurts and pangs of regret and hope still exist. But, on the whole, the narcissist is transformed into a narrative, a symbol, another life experience, or a (tedious) cliché. He is no longer omni-present and his former victim entertains no delusions as to the one-sided and abusive nature of the relationship or as to the possibility and desirability of its renewal.



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 Message 109 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 2/8/2009 6:26 AM
The hardest and most shocking part of my journey has been to realize that none of it was real. It was an illusion that I was sucked into through some sort of brain washing.
The N is a fake and a lie. He does not love anyone, never has and never will.
He is a master manipulator and knows how to pull people's strings like a puppet master to get what he wants from them.
Read all you can on NPD and you will soon realize that there was no love--just control, manipulation and punishment for being yourself instead of who he wanted you to be.

Reply
 Message 110 of 110 in Discussion 
From: GraceSent: 2/8/2009 6:41 AM
wait for someone to prove themselves trustworthy before you trust them.

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