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Nutrition : Dairy Pasteurization, Grains, Caffeine
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(1 recommendation so far) Message 1 of 48 in Discussion 
From: JoshR  (Original Message)Sent: 11/1/2006 11:06 PM
I am a new reader on your forum and I had a few questions. Sorry, it's kind of an odd mishmash:

1) What are your thoughts on pasteurized vs. unpasteurized grass fed dairy (disregarding price)?

2) In your diet you include a homemade wheat bread. I've read in a few places that many vegetables and grains have defensive compounds, which makes their consumption problematic. Fruits, roots, and tubers don't have the same negative effects. Thoughts?

3) What do you think of coffee/tea and caffeine? I read a Ray Peat article that was very pro, but I'd always heard the contrary (at least about coffee).


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 Message 34 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 1/4/2007 5:33 AM
Correction:  In the second sentence in the above post, it should say "not necessarily the case in all brands available today" rather than "no longer the case."

Reply
 Message 35 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 1/4/2007 5:55 AM
I found a site that has the amino acid profiles of these items listed.  First, this is for whole milk mozzarella, 112 grams, 1 cup:
 
Protein 24.8 g 50%
Tryptophan 577 mg  
  Threonine 1101 mg  
  Isoleucine 1271 mg  
  Leucine 2045 mg  
  Lysine 1081 mg  
  Methionine 577 mg  
  Cystine 129 mg  
  Phenylalanine 1132 mg  
  Tyrosine 1168 mg  
  Valine 1481 mg  
  Arginine 577 mg  
  Histidine 577 mg  
  Alanine 792 mg  
  Aspartic acid 1829 mg  
  Glutamic acid 4993 mg  
  Glycine 577 mg  
  Proline 2633 mg  
  Serine 823 mg  
  Hydroxyproline
  trace amount
 
And this is for ricotta, 264 grams, 1 cup:
 
Protein 27.7 g 55%
  Tryptophan 307 mg  
  Threonine 1272 mg  
  Isoleucine 1449 mg  
  Leucine 3003 mg  
  Lysine 3291 mg  
  Methionine 691 mg  
  Cystine 244 mg  
  Phenylalanine 1368 mg  
  Tyrosine 1449 mg  
  Valine 1703 mg  
  Arginine 1555 mg  
  Histidine 1129 mg  
  Alanine 1228 mg  
  Aspartic acid 2448 mg  
  Glutamic acid 6017 mg  
  Glycine 726 mg  
  Proline 2623 mg  
  Serine 1414 mg  
  Hydroxyproline
  trace amount
 
You can see that the tyrptophan, aspartic acid, and glutamic acid contents are certainly higher for the ricotta, but not to a degree that is alarming to me.  And you can get more glycine, for example, from consuming gelatin.  Note that it could be that they tested one brand but that another brand is quite different, so it still is a good idea to contact the company and ask if they hafve the information for their product.  Also, they have some incorrect claims on the site, which is a concern, such as that "saturated fat" is pro inflammatory, when in fact a saturated fatty acid cannot be made into inflammtory molecules, though polyunsaturated fatty acids can be (and are, if cells are stressed beyond a certain threshold - see the Spiteller study I cited in one of the essays on this site).  It may indeed by true that lard, which is 39% saturated, has "pro inflammatory" qualities, but coconut oil, at 92% saturated, does not, and so this claim is simply absurd, especially considering how the molecular-level mechanisms are known now.  Why anyone would call lard a "saturated fat" is the only interesting question.
 
Source of the data above:  http://www.nutritiondata.com/

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 Message 36 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 1/4/2007 8:55 PM
Compare the above amino acid profiles to "Beef, chuck, arm pot roast, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, choice, cooked, braised:"

Protein 314 g 628%
Tryptophan 2059 mg
Threonine 12525 mg
Isoleucine 14270 mg
Leucine 24955 mg
Lysine 26509 mg
Methionine 8167 mg
Cystine 4052 mg
Phenylalanine 12397 mg
Tyrosine 9996 mg
Valine 15558 mg
Arginine 20279 mg
Histidine 10009 mg
Alanine 19078 mg
Aspartic acid 28569 mg
Glutamic acid 47095 mg
Glycine 19096 mg
Proline 14960 mg
Serine 12353 mg
Hydroxyproline 3296 mg

Same source as above.

Reply
 Message 37 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametyk96tyk96Sent: 1/5/2007 2:03 AM
beef has more of what the cheese has?

Reply
 Message 38 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 1/5/2007 6:47 AM
The beef protein is a for a much larger portion, so it looks like a lot more than the cheeses.  Something very strange is that when you compare the information from the site cited above to the Gelatin Manufacturer's Institute of America, there are some problems, and not just for hydroxyproline, but take a look at tyrosine:
 
 
Protein 6.0 g 12%
  Tryptophan 0.0 mg  
  Threonine 103 mg  
  Isoleucine 81.1 mg  
  Leucine 172 mg  
  Lysine 242 mg  
  Methionine 42.4 mg  
  Cystine 0.0 mg  
  Phenylalanine 122 mg  
  Tyrosine 21.2 mg  
  Valine 146 mg  
  Arginine 463 mg  
  Histidine 46.3 mg  
  Alanine 561 mg  
  Aspartic acid 369 mg  
  Glutamic acid 613 mg  
  Glycine 1334 mg  
  Proline 861 mg  
  Serine 182 mg  
  Hydroxyproline
  trace amount
 
 
And here is the GMI of A's data:
 

Amino Acid

g amino acids per
100 g pure protein

Alanine

11.3

Arginine *

9.0

Aspartic Acid

6.7

Glutamic Acid

11.6

Glycine

27.2

Histidine *

0.7

Proline

15.5

Hydroxyproline

13.3

Hydroxylysine

0.8

Isoleucine *

1.6


Leucine *

3.5

Lysine *

4.4

Methionine *

0.6

Phenylalanine

2.5

Serine

3.7

Threonine *

2.4

Tryptophan *

0.0

Tyrosine

0.2

Valine

2.8

 
* Essential Amino Acid
 
 
It's clear that gelatin has a lot of glycine, and that if you are looking to "balance" that with amino acids such as tryptophan, aspartic acid, and glutamic acid (if you are on a typical Western diet), then gelatin is something to consider eating in more than very small amounts.

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 Message 39 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 1/5/2007 8:39 AM
I looked up a Ray Peat article that addresses this amino acid profile issue, and here are some quotations:
 
"The fatigue produced by 'over-training' is probably produced by a tryptophan and serotonin overload, resulting from catabolism of muscle proteins and stress-induced increases in serotonin. Muscle catabolism also releases a large amount of cysteine, and cysteine, methionine, and tryptophan suppress thyroid function (Carvalho, et al., 2000). Stress also liberates free fatty acids from storage, and these fatty acids increase the uptake of tryptophan into the brain, increasing the formation of serotonin. Since serotonin increases ACTH and cortisol secretion, the catabolic state tends to be self-perpetuating."
 
"In the traditional diet, rather than just eating muscle meats, all the animal parts were used. Since collagen makes up about 50% of the protein in an animal, and is free of tryptophan, this means that people were getting about half as much tryptophan in proportion to other amino acids..."
 
"Whey has been promoted as a protein supplement, but it contains a much higher proportion of tryptophan than milk does. Cheese (milk with the whey removed) contains even less tryptophan. Some people have been encouraged to eat only the whites of eggs, “to avoid cholesterol,�?but the egg albumin is disproportionately rich in tryptophan.

The expensive tender cuts of meat contain excessive amounts of cysteine and tryptophan, but bone broth (gelatin) and the tougher cuts of meat contain more gelatin, which lacks those amino acids. "

From the data on the nutritiondata.com site, it appears that milk does have significantly less tryptophan than whey powder, but the most cheese don't seem to have that much less, though it varies from one to another.  This does not make sense, because cheese is a product of milk, minus the whey.  Any thoughts on this?  Nutritional data may not be as accurate as one might think.  In any case, my take is that worrying about this is not worth it, in general, because the biggest problem is the oxidized and/or easily oxidizable lipids in the diet, though I would avoid consuming large amounts of whey powder, and gelatin in the diet looks like a good idea.

Source of the quoted passages: http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/tryptophan-serotonin-aging.shtml


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 Message 40 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametyk96tyk96Sent: 1/5/2007 6:47 PM
i couldn't find any information on line,,,
 
would the rind of brie, since its mold, feed candidas growth in the body? what is in rind anyways? how could it be a benefit?
 
for me,,, i think,, yogurt soothes my stomach incredibly,,, I don't think i could have taken all those medications without my stomach seriously going upset without massive amount of home made yogurt i am eating.

Reply
 Message 41 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametyk96tyk96Sent: 1/5/2007 10:05 PM
what is in the rind,,, isn't it mostly mold? if so,, doesn't it feel fungus in the body?

Reply
 Message 42 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 1/5/2007 11:06 PM
I am going by results. I started eating yogurt in the 1970s, then stopped when I became a vegan (for over a dozen years), and then started again (several years now), and I just don't see any difference. I did notice differences (positive ones) within a couple of days of eating the brie rind. If yogurt works for you, then by all means go ahead and eat reasonable amounts of it. If you are "getting better," then wait until you feel that you feel "totally normal" before trying the rind, or don't bother with it at all. The key, as far as I'm concerned, is to normalize your physiology/biochemistry, then go ahead and introduce one new item at a time, and see what happens.

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 Message 43 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 1/8/2007 6:52 AM
On the web page cited above, Ray Peat cited a study, entitled Long-term tryptophan restriction and aging in the rat.   Aktuelle Gerontol 1977 Oct;7(10):535-8.
 
The rats were fed Purina Rat chow, which probably contains quite a bit of omega 6 PUFAs.  I am wondering if the effects they saw were the result of the amino acids and a diet rich in omega 6 PUFAs.  If the rats were fed a diet like mine, the results might have been very different.

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 Message 44 of 48 in Discussion 
From: JoshRSent: 1/11/2007 1:21 AM
What brands do you prefer for supplements (calcium,magnesium, vitamin D, hcl w/ pepsin etc)? Most of the ones available at my local stores have a lot of fillers.

Also, you seem to get powdered versions for some items whereas I usually only see pill forms.

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 Message 45 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 1/11/2007 5:33 AM
I recently got some betain HCl from Puritan's Pride at a good price, but before that I was mostly buying from iherb.com, and they sell many of these products in the powdered form.  Otherwise, I just read the ingredients and look at the prices, rather than seeking particular brands.

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 Message 46 of 48 in Discussion 
From: JoshRSent: 2/20/2007 8:12 PM
The first Betaine HCL supplement I took was from Solaray with 250mg Betaine HCL; 100 mg Glutamic Acid HCL; 150mg Pepsin ;100mg Papaya Leaf (dosage was usually 2 per meal). This seemed to work well for me, but then my local store stopped carrying it.

I then tried another Solaray type with 650mg Betaine HCL and 162mg Pepsin (dosage was usually 1 per meal). I really noticed a difference for the worse with these, so I started looking for an alternative. Problems included sporadic headaches and indigestion but still better than when I wasn't taking any Betaine HCL.

Most recently I tried a Twinlab version with pretty much the same ingredients, but the effects seem worse than the second batch from Solaray. I've had some stomach cramping and upset and more bloating. Also, my brain has seemed foggy and I've been distracted a lot.

So onto my questions...

Why would I notice such a difference when the base components are so similar? I'm really unsure of what brand to buy next.

How bad is the glutamic acid in the first type I tried? I'm tempted to go back (I found them online), but I've read some negative things about glutamic acid.

I'm wondering if maybe the papaya leaf in the first pills was helping me a lot. Should I consider a papain or other enzyme supplement?

Reply
 Message 47 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHansSelyeWasCorrectSent: 2/21/2007 1:44 AM
I would experiment.  Eat the same food, but try different supplements.  I doubt that that amount of glutamic acid would cause problems, so if that seemed to work best, I'd keep taking it.  I notice that sometimes I wake up during the night now with a little bit of a "heartburn" sensation, about 7 hours after I ate my last meal.  If this keeps happening, I won't take a betaine HCl pill with my last meal, and see if that helps.  I know that www.iherb.com  has a few different supplements with betain HCl, so you might want to try them out.  There are usually some coupons you can use, if you search the internet for them.  Puritan's Pride often offers 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 deals, and they sell betaine HCl without any of the other things in it.  Let me know which one works best for you, after you sort it all out.  Don't keep taking them, though, if you get frequent "heartburn" type symptoms.  However, you can try the digestive enzymes without betaine HCl and that should not cause the burning sensations.

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 Message 48 of 48 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJamieDH4Sent: 2/21/2007 5:48 AM
JoshR-

I don't know what country you live in, but here in the United States we have this store called "The Vitamin Shoppe". Their store brand is really good. I use it, but I sometimes feel a teensy bit drowsy while taking it nothing realy worth noting though.

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