MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
Witches Circle of BrewContains "mature" content, but not necessarily adult.[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Welcome2  
  ****> Welcome New Members**  
  Rules  
  Fair Use Copy Write Laws  
  Resources Used to Create This Chat Room  
  Meet The Team Updated  
  Message Boards  
  General  
  Â¨*:The Witches Mail Room  
  Craft Ideas  
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  Nature of our ways  
  A Witches History and Future  
  What Is Magick (fixed for an easier read)  
  Year of the Witch  
  Sabbat Basics  
  Witches Place to start  
  Code of Ethics for Teachers of Wicca  
  Teachers Guide to the Pagan Student Added  
  Teachings of Mother Earth  
  Frequently Asked Questions  
  Q's & A's Discus  
  Recommended Reading  
  First Degree Witch  
  Second Degree Witch  
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  Witches Circle of Brew Winds of Change  
  Paganism Defined  
  Pagan Beliefs  
  Wiccan Beliefs  
  Wiccan Reed  
  Witches Law  
  Witches Ethics  
  Witches Reed  
  Â·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨  
  Death  
  Karma  
  Grounding  
  Sheilding  
  Visualisations  
  Meditation Made Easy  
  Meditation Chakr  
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  Altar Set Up  
  **Creating your BOS  
  **Cauldrons  
  Magickal Symbols  
  Introduction to Self Dedication  
  Wiccan Self Dedication  
  Self- Dedication for the Solitary  
  Ritual Structure  
  Pathworking  
  Pagan Rituals  
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  Casting a Circle  
  Casting Out Ritual  
  The Charge of the Goddess/god  
  Call of the Goddess  
  Call The Quarters  
  Drawing Down The Moon  
  Charge of The God  
  Charge of the Horned God  
  Charge of the Dark God  
  Invocation to Freyja  
  Invocation to Odin  
  Invocation of the Goddess Hella  
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  )0(Realms and Meanings of Some Popular Deities  
  )0(Goddesses (under constant construction))0(  
  )0(Gods and Goddesses )0(  
  )0(Tripple Goddess)0(  
  )0(The Goddess as Crone  
  )0(The Goddess as Mother  
  )0(The Goddess As Maiden  
  Hecate, Morrighan, Brigit  
  Yemaya, Kali, Akenaten  
  Estsanatlehi, Nut,White Buffalo Woman  
  Greenman, Hades, Horus  
  Tog-Sothoth, Mammon, Herne  
  The Dagda, Vulcan, Hermes  
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  The Moon  
  The Waters of Mother Earth  
  Correspondents For All  
  The Elements  
  Day Correspondents  
  Color Correspondents  
  Candle Correspondents  
  Herbal Correspondents  
  Incense Correspondents  
  Some Stones And Gems  
  Fowl Correspondents  
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  .·:*¨¨*:Spells  
  .·:*¨¨*:Spell crafting 101  
  Astral Projection  
  What's in Your Aura  
  Aromatherapy  
  .·:*¨¨*:Dressing the Part  
  Imagine -- A Thought for all  
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  Witchy Shops Links  
  Links  
  Pictures  
    
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  â˜†â˜†â˜†â˜† Divinations ☆☆☆☆  
  Tarot  
  Ouji Board Divination  
  Clairvoyance Page  
  Palmistry  
  Bone Magick  
  Tea Time  
  Druids Page 1  
  Druid Laws & Rules  
  Pagan Pride  
  Colours  
  A Web of Spiders  
  Archnifacts  
  The Alchemy of Fragrance  
  Hair Care - Frugal  
  Home Made Lotions  
  Runes  
  Scrying  
  CrystalBallGazin  
  Past Lives  
  Geomency  
  Dream  
  Yin and Yang Explained  
  How Yin and Yang Got it's Symbol  
  .·:*¨¨*:.·:*¨¨*:.·:*¨¨*:.·:*¨¨*:.·:*¨¨*:  
  .·:*¨¨Astrology  
  .·:*¨Spell a Day  
  .·:*¨¨Daily Zen  
  Sabbat Info  
  .·:Bottany today  
  .·:*¨¨Daily Om  
  .·:*Aromatherapy  
  Druids  
  Process of Dying  
  .·:*¨¨*:.·:*¨¨*:.·:*¨¨*:.·:*¨¨*:.·:*¨¨*:  
  HERBS  
  Find Your Herb  
  Greek Mythology  
  Deities  
  Amulets  
  Any Recipes'  
  Siggy Offers  
  SIggy Pickup  
  snag tags  
  Backgrounds  
  .·:Home Remedies  
  Crystals  
  .·:*¨¨*:.·Poetry Corner.·:*¨¨*:  
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  Poetry Board  
  ~~**POEM***~~Witches Dance  
  **A Prayer to The Goddess During Hard Times  
  **The Earth is My Mother  
  **The Ocean  
  **The Goddess  
  **We Hid in The Night  
  **The Moon and The Sun  
  The Book Club  
  .·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·..·:*¨¨*:·.�?·:*¨¨*:·.  
  
  
  Tools  
 
General : Pagan Parenting: the Sin of Guilt
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
 Message 1 of 2 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFadingGaurdian_Witch  (Original Message)Sent: 10/6/2008 11:41 AM

Pagan Parenting: the Sin of Guilt

By Amanda Cummings

At times it becomes apparent that there are some vast divergences between Pagan parents and those who do not understand our perspective on the world. Not only do we look at things more holistically, not only do we try to appreciate nature around us, not only do we try to be responsible, but also we look at our selves differently.

We do not see the immoral, sinful, dirty, degraded stuff so many of us were taught (both religiously and culturally) to see in ourselves and those around us. We were even expected to see our children this way and to actively teach them to see themselves this way, too. We as Pagans look at the people around us as basically good, decent, valuable people. We understand ourselves this way. We see ourselves as connected, part of a beautiful mosaic of history and life.

How does this difference in perspective affect the way we look at the world? And more to the point, how does it affect how we look at, and teach our children?

The biggest difference leaping to mind is the question of guilt. If we are not inherently evil, then when we screw up, what have we done? Have we just shown yet again the corruption lurking in our hearts? Have we reconfirmed our basic sinful nature? No! We just screwed up. Everybody does it. Pagan philosophy does not require us to be perfect—just responsible. What does this mean in relation to our children?

It means we are free from making moral judgments about everything our children do. Isn't that great? How many times have you seen a child make a mistake and the parent's reaction was to jerk the child up short and say sharply, bad girl? Or possibly even worse, when a child does something in line with what the parents want, they say, good boy! What does that teach children about themselves? If I make mommy happy, I'm good, a child's logic runs, and if I make her mad, I'm bad. So the parents are now the barometers for how the child assesses their own self worth.

My former husband did this to my first born—once. She was supposed to leave something alone (I don't even remember what) and being two or so, she had, of course, picked it up again. He grabbed her hand, slapped it hard enough to knock the object out of her grasp, and in a raised voice said, Bad girl! That's a very bad girl! As she went crying out of the room, I turned to him very quietly and said, I didn't make any bad children, and don't you ever tell them they are again. To his credit, he never did again (at least not in my hearing).

This freedom from moral judgment is by no means an endorsement of lack of discipline—quite the contrary, in my experience. It means we as Pagan parents have to be creative in finding ways to help our children be responsible for themselves and their mistakes, since guilt, in our frame of reference, cannot exist.

Did I read that right?, you may be asking yourself. Guilt cannot exist? Exactly. And if we cannot employ guilt to keep our children's behavior under control, we must get creative. Think about it—what is there to feel guilty about? Making a mistake? We all do that. When you teach children to assume responsibility for the consequences of their behavior, there is nothing to feel guilty about. When the consequences of your behavior are that you helped mom make a nice dinner, then you have the pleasure of knowing you did a good job and that it was appreciated. If the consequences of your behavior are that you spent your allowance on candy, and you're out of lunch money at the end of the week—pack your lunch. I'm not saying there isn't room for regret, rather we deal with it by making things as right as possible. An apology or some form of restitution will usually serve. But after that, there is no cause for further guilt. It's more like, I made a mistake, I felt badly about it, I made things as right as I could, and now I can move forward, having learned my lesson. This is what I mean when I say guilt cannot exist. If we teach our children to assume responsibility for their actions, there is no way to guilt them.

This means we must find ways of making the consequences pertinent to the behavior. One of my current pet peeves is the time-out punishment, when the child must sit quietly alone for a while (like a penalty in hockey). This expands on mom happy = I'm good; mom mad = I'm bad. Time-out is still an externally applied form of moral judgment on behavior. It is, thankfully, less violent than a spanking, but it still operates as a way of coercing acceptable behavior from children without requiring them to have internalized a thing (i.e., gained a personal value of the behavior). Time-out is still applied from an external source. It creates the attitude of it's only wrong if I get caught because what determines rightness or wrongness is separate from the child. It's like a child who won't steal because they know it is not right to take someone else's property as opposed to the child who won't steal (this time) because they might be spotted.

I think there are, of course, times when sending children away from you is appropriate. A child behaving antisocially must be removed from other people. Temper-tantrums always worked this way for me. I would have a child lying on the floor, crying and carrying on. I would scoop them up and deposit them in their room, explaining: I understand your need to cry, you must appreciate my need not to hear it. When you are through crying you may come out. I only had to hold the door once (the other two never thought of trying to get out), but it made the point. Hitting was another one. Hitting is unacceptable. If you can't be around others without hitting, I say, then you need to be away from them until you can keep from hitting them. Boom—in the room.

This time-out thing, though, uses the idea of isolation and lack of mobility as punishment (a moral judgment). You did something baaaaad. You must be `punished! This is different from accepting the consequences of your behavior, because if the punishment is always the same, it most likely will not relate to the unacceptable behavior most of the time. Come here when I call you, can just as easily and probably more effectively be dealt with, by stepping just out of their range of vision. When the child realizes they can't find you, and just starts to panic, that's the time to scoop them up and hug them and whisper in their ear, That's why it is important for you to come here when I call you. I don't want you to get lost. That's much more to the point, it seems to me, than threatening: Come here? Come here? Come here? COME HERE or`TIMEOUT!

The consequence should have some relation to the action in order to teach the lesson effectively so the child will internalize it. By imposing an external punishment, you motivate the child to behavior based on what it will get them or allow them to avoid. By allowing them to deal with the consequences of their behavior, it teaches them to consider the ramifications of their actions for those around them and to consider how to deal with it. It's like punishing a teenager for driving recklessly. Which is more effective: do you ground them for a month, or do you tell them to buy their own insurance? Which is more to the point? Which is more directly a consequence of their action?

Time-out misses the boat in this respect. Leave the TV alone—time-out. Pick up your room—time-out. Get in the car—time-out. Stop crying—time-out. Bring that here—time-out. Put that away—time-out. Once a child figures out that sitting in a chair is not too tough, you're back at square one.

Time-out is effective not because sitting down somehow registers in the brain as a stimulus to acceptable behavior, but because for most children, being banished from their parents and being disapproved of (even for a short time) is more than they can bear. This is emotional coercion—and it still has not taught the child anything except that displeasing a parent is bad. They learn that what matters most is to keep the parent happy, and to do nothing that might change that. This teaches children to submerge their own individual wants, needs, preferences in favor of what the parent wants. It teaches children not to stand up for themselves. It says, You are not entitled to be your own person unless I approve. You wind up creating teenagers and adults whose self-worth is entirely tied to what others think of them and who approves of them. This goes for any such system of punishment—time-out is only the current fashion.

Our goal as parents is to teach our children to think for themselves, develop their own sense of personal integrity. If a child learns to accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions, guilt is an ineffective means of manipulation. A child who has learned to accept responsibility can answer Guilt when he speaks. Guilt says, you are a bad person [somehow] because you failed. The responsible child can say in all honesty, I made a mistake. I am still a good person. Guilt says, you are morally inferior because you [whatever fills in the blank]. The responsible child can accept the consequences, but reject the judgment. Yes, I did (or didn't) do [whatever fills in the blanks], but I made amends, and learned. I can't do anything more than that. That is what a moral person does. I made a mistake, but I am still a decent human being. Shameful judgments come from outside the child. They come from guilt. They come from whoever taught the child to buy into the guilt, and whoever is now manipulating the child with it. When an adult imposes external moral judgments about a child's behavior, and coerces acceptable behavior from them, all the child has learned is to accept guilt and blame when it is assigned to them. By learning to accept the consequences of their behavior, and dealing with them effectively, children may become nearly impervious to guilt.

Can you imagine our children living their lives without someone being able to shame them into anything? Can you imagine children who make things right because of their own personal integrity, and not because someone might think less of them? What would the future be like if guilt became obsolete? How honest our young adults would be. How can we as parents continue to use systems of moral judgment, emotional coercion, and guilt to control our children and then expect them to be honest, straightforward, responsible adults? I think we have it within our grasp to change the way we as a culture instruct our children, and certainly we as Pagans do. We say we practice a religion of personal responsibility, but we have yet to learn effective ways of allowing our children to practice responsibility in their lives. We must give up old, ineffective, damaging patterns of dealing with our children in order to help them become the best people they can be. That way they can create their own future vision of a world and culture that we may one day be proud to share.

Blessed Be!



First  Previous  2 of 2  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 2 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMidnight_Magickal_StormSent: 10/14/2008 1:15 PM