MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
à Gãthèriñg iñ thè Pãlãcé GárdéñContains "mature" content, but not necessarily adult.[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Welcome  
  Pictures  
  General  
  Messages  
  Birthdays  
  Archives  
  Gentle Answers  
  Ģøŕ  
  Pøëmś & Prøśë  
  Celebrations  
  WG Information  
  
  
  Tools  
 
Gentle Answers : just a question
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
 Message 1 of 6 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname۵gõđđзşş۰oƒ۵tħз۰c۵  (Original Message)Sent: 7/21/2008 4:45 AM
Hehehe, sitting here surrounded in the pinkness that i love so very much, my thoughts wander from question to question, there are so many! Having had such wonderful discussions of late, my mind is thirsty for so much more! Knowledge and understanding is my buffet, i could come back for more and more, some to hold and savor, some to digest quickly as the Ahh HA moment comes along. Now where do i start?? In reading some old assignments last night, oh gosh it has occurred to me that i have been blinded in the first light of discovery, i am almost ashamed of how i was back then. However i am so happy to know i can realize that now. For the last while now, i have begun to wonder if i am at all "submissive". No one can answer this but me, and i realize that. As time passes however, i find i am in transition, and confused. Does it make me weak to need all the kind of structure that comes from a D/s relationship? At times i find myself flitting to certain Dominants, almost seeking the approval, the acceptance, that "pull" sucking me in, almost ...and i mean almost feel as though i could just sit up in Their laps and feel that security. But i am missing to have my mind pushed to think, expected to say just what i think, what i ponder, what i feel, and figuring out why i do. lolol oh Lordy do i prattle!! So this is my question, how does a girl not in a D/s relationship, satisfy that need, (and i say need because for me i really do feel it is a need) how do i ground myself and feel content without the guiding hand?
 
Always
~goddess~
xoxox


First  Previous  2-6 of 6  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 6 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﺼSent: 7/22/2008 3:23 AM
First off goddess, NO, you are not weak for wanting the sense of structure that can be found in a D/s relationship.  The evidence of this can be found simply in the fact that you would admit you do.  Such an acknowledgement does not come easy given the oddity by which such a desire can be viewed.
 
For the sake of avoiding getting off track, I’ll point out that yes, there is a difference between  needs and wants.  This seems to be one of those popular topics that keeps popping up that defines needs as being those things such as food, water, clothing, and shelter required for physical safety and survival while wants are all those other things that add to our existence.  The important feature of this distinction is that one views other involvements and procurements in life as personal choices.  There is a difference, however, in the intensity one feels with the menu of wants and choices available.  Whereas some wants are merely fleeting attractions such as wanting the newest model of a vehicle, the latest release from your favorite musical artist, or a redesigned kitchen, other wants feel a more distinct urgency and intensity.
 
While that new vehicle would be nice and the latest CD from Vanilla Ice would be cool and that new kitchen would be simply marvelous, not obtaining them has little impact on the quality of your life and can easily fade in the larger picture of daily living.  Still other wants take on the intensity of a desire that is essential to our identity, personal satisfaction and add to the sense of balance and confidence it takes to lead a life that is self enhancing and productive.  Although these wants may not pose an immediate threat to survival, over the long term they most certainly do in that stress and anxiety, lack of fulfillment, and degrees of depression can lead to a lifestyle that is detrimental to our physical, emotional, and intellectual well-being.
 
For some folks, dominance or submissiveness, in the context of D/s, is essential to their identity, and overall well-being.  Would they die without it �?no �?but the quality of their lives would definitely suffer.  Take for instance a person who owns her own business and thrives on the independence to exercise personal creativity, vision, and preferences unfettered by the obligatory deference to an employer, boss, and corporate politics.  In the event that she is no longer able to conduct her business (not uncommon in these troubled economic times) and must become the employee of another person or entity, it is likely that she would find her creativity and ability to more freely exercise her preferences impaired, thus affecting her overall quality of life.  The breadth of choices she can make based on her preferences will be curtailed, her ability to make decisions will be limited, and the independence that enriched her existence will now be stunted by what the boss or corporate policies allows.  Yes, she can and will survive, but the urges and desires to essentially be her self will remain, unfulfilled to the extent she once knew.
 
In the same way, there are some essentials for the person who is submissive in the context of D/s.  Can she survive without it?  Of course she can.  Would she feel more balanced, fulfilled, and authentic to who she is by being able to integrate D/s in her life?  Most likely, for part of  identity is a person who feels the urge to submit to the influence of another, the desire to serve another/others (for some, not all), covets the fulfillment that comes from being pleasing, and perhaps craves the ecstasy of erotic activities that are broader and less inhibited then most of her friends.  It takes a great deal of strength to submit to the reality that these things are essential to one’s identity.
 
I cannot be sure what “kind of structure�?you find or have found to be most useful and productive.  The concept of structure within a D/s relationship varies widely between individuals from less to more, the important factor, however, being what is essential to an individual to express her submissiveness in the most productive ways.  Just as other personal strengths have the capacity to enhance one’s life, so too does the strength of submissiveness.
 
I point this out with regard to what you describe as “flitting�?to those who appear dominant to you and to some degree appeal to the essence of you that seeks approval, acceptance, and a sense of security.  If I am reading you accurately, it seems as if you recognize and perhaps are dissatisfied that your desires are the basis of what you describe as sometimes being “sucked in�?to settling for associations or involvements that provide at least the illusion of fulfilling these desires.  If this is accurate, then I’d tell you not to punish yourself too much as most people who also happen to be submissive are vulnerable to the attraction of what appears to be a “guiding hand.�?nbsp; Those “guiding hands�?are plentiful, whether on line in chat rooms, Comms, or other D/s sites or off line in public munches, educational forums, or other D/s related events.
 
Rather than getting into the tangled definitions of trainers, mentors, companions, etc., I’ll focus on the single attribute you might look for in judging the efficacy of a “guiding hand,�?whether on line or off line.  It comes from the lyrics of an old song done by Ike and Tina Turner and says: “I hear what you say but I see what you do.�?nbsp; In other words, does these guiding hands act in congruence with what you hear them say.  Do they profess one thing but do another?  Do their actions speak louder than their words because the clamor of duplicity rings loudly due to the inconsistency between the two?
 
Guiding hands can be charming and flatter you with their attention.  You are not the first nor will you be the last submissive who gets “sucked in�?to the appealing appearance they portray.  On the other hand �?yours �?I suggest you can become more discerning by paying attention to the authenticity of all those guiding hands eager and willing to “show you the way.�?nbsp; Nothing better attests to the authenticity of a person than consistency between the perspectives they profess and the actions they display.
 
As it is frequently said, consistency in the dominant/Master is the basis for the trust required by a submissive to surrender in a D/s relationship.  While many huff n�?puff endlessly about “walking the walk and talking the talk,�?the crucial question for you to ponder and answer is, “do they actually walk their talk?�?nbsp; The authenticity of their dominance or Mastery will be revealed to you by the consistency or inconsistency of doing so.  I suggest this is a sound foundation for you to choose which hands you will or will not let guide you.  By applying this, it is possible for you to discover the grounding you and others often want so as not to have the vulnerabilities of their submissiveness taken advantage of and misused.

Reply
 Message 3 of 6 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname◦đę√įlş◦ŵişħ�?/nobr>Sent: 7/22/2008 10:52 PM
Ohhhhh i hear ya goddess! I think at some point we've all been there lol. For me, the most successful course of action was to do a bit of a spaceship fixit. You know when they're out in space and something needs fixing but they can't get the parts out coz rockets don't have roadside assistance or something and they put all the things they can work with on the table and figure out a solution from that. Like that i got a similar sense of pleasure from serving my family, my little brother who lives with me in particular. I draw satisfaction from doing similar sorts of things that i would do for my Master for them. It's not the same obviously, but sometimes acknowledging to yourself that it can still be a form of service is enough to take the edge off the craving.
 
I think too that when you are talking about the guiding hand you're not giving yourself enough credit. I think it's normal and sensible for a submissive to gravitate towards Dominant people. With or without D/s a good friend is someone that enhances you, that makes you happy and gives something to your life in exchange for you giving something to theirs. It is no different with making friends with someone able to share their Dominance with you.
 
It's also no different when it comes to being smart about who you make friends with. We all learn that the hard way at some point in our life.
 
Truthfully, i dont think substitution is every going to be exactly as it could be if we were in the ideal situation to get all of the things we need. It can be enough though. Afterall, if those NASA smarties can repair a rocket with a plastic cup, some foil and a straw... surely we're MacGuiver enough to make ourselves happy.
 

Reply
 Message 4 of 6 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname«Hıspet∞ƒury∞ŚteeL»Sent: 7/24/2008 7:33 AM
goddess,
Thankyou for initiating this new board in all its pinkness! i do understand your questions as well as your yearnings. i also know sometimes these self doubts can really turn a person inside out-i like to take comfort in the fact im not the only to feel this way sometimes ..i hope you find a little comfort in this as well.
 
i dont think it makes you weak to want some kind of structure or a strong presence in your life at all. For me rituals and boundaries are something i love about D/s - Having experienced times with a Master in my life and times without - i can also say i know your struggle and the pull you describe. A strong Dominant presence can be very intoxicating to a girl .*smiles* i think to some extent W/we feed off each other in that regard. There is no shame in feeling it or being drawn to it. Perhaps the thing im still learning is to be more discriminate about Who i choose to share myself with as i wander. Some feasts are like a full meal- they satisfy and sate you- some are like a giant sugar rush- no substance, there is a certain crash when it is spent and no true nutrition is derived there from.
 
If anything, i think the want for structure and some sort of control is a good sign that submission might be a part of your make up- i know in the past when i have not had a Dominant in my life i have questioned my own submission. Questioned, run away from, denied altogether - you name it ive tried it - for me it was not the way to go - that hunger just kept gnawing away at me. Better for me was to look inside myself - see the ways in which i could embrace the things that made me crave submission- and deal with it from there.
 
Some of the things i have done and still do are to concentrate on the activities i do thru the course of each day. ive come to realize that there are things i do in certain ways so they are 'just so' for the people i care about. Like dev i find value in the ways i have found to please the people around me and i appreciate the quality of being able to do just that. Sometimes it is so easy to brush their happiness off in a kind of 'aww shucks' manner, but the truth is not everyone has the ability or the desire to do extra special things for the ones they care about. Not everyone sees the need for those extra details or those insightful contributions that make a moment just right. - Take happiness from your abilities in that arena and pride in the fact you are wired that way. It is a special thing.
 
Paying attention to myself and my sensuality/sexuality is something that is also very important- This important part of us is so easy to bury amidst the day to day details of a busy life. i like to think that although it is wonderful to have that part of you drawn out under a strong guiding hand- it is still important to know yourself in that regard- to keep that part of you primed and supple and within easy reach. Being in close touch with the things that you desire and that arouse you is simply another way to move thru this world at ease and in full acceptance of everything you are. Knowing and embracing whatever you happen to be brimming with is not always an easy task but well worth the effort, and something most Dominants i know would find a very appealing trait.
 
Oh yes it may at times seem like bliss to have a Master telling you His every whim, what to think, what to do to please Him etc., but the D/s that i have lived with over the years has more often come down to being my responsibility first - the Ones i have served have been happy with my ability to think and consider the many ways i might please them. They have enjoyed how i may have expanded upon the foundations they have given me in regards to their preferrences and their desires- i think one has to believe in themselves and embrace the things i have mentioned above in order to feel free enough to do this. Indeed that hunger is to some degree satisfied anytime i obey and am able to please, but when i serve and do well of my own volition- when i somehow hit the mark because of who and what i have become in my life and not simply because i have been told what to do and have obeyed, what a greater feeling of accomplishment there is for me to tuck away until the next time i am presented with an opportunity to serve.
 
Lastly i would gently remind you, our kind of happiness doesnt always come to us in the way we envision it or as easily as we would like - Living wired as a submissive and acknowledging the desires of your own heart sometimes comes at a price. i have found the best way to accept that price is to accept oneself, hunger and all -Celebrate the beauty of the qualities i know are inside of me and i have seen in you. Learn to believe that those qualities are indeed a special thing in this sometimes unhappy, ugly, repressed and selfish world and appreciate Those who genuninely see and embrace you for possessing them. See the struggle to find those things inside of you and fine tune them as a valuable tempering of who and what you are - Enjoying what you bring to the table makes it that much easier to spread it out before someone else to savor.-
 
Fondly and with much love,
 
SteeLs pet
 ~fury~
   

Reply
 Message 5 of 6 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname۵gõđđзşş۰oƒ۵tħз۰c۵Sent: 7/25/2008 11:23 PM
Well, where do i start!? Firstly thank Yyou Aall for the responses, each and everyone of them has given me pause for further thought. Is is reassuring to hear that the weak doe eyed little thing i sometimes think i am, is of my own creation.  I'm afraid i do my best thinking  when talking, and find i struggle with putting it all down without a sounding board. Please do not mind as i take some quoting liberties to get my thoughts out in some semblance of order.
 
"I suggest you can become more discerning by paying attention to the authenticity of all those guiding hands eager and willing to “show you the way.�?nbsp; Nothing better attests to the authenticity of a person than consistency between the perspectives they profess and the actions they display."
 
Ohh yes Sir! I so very much agree here. I've certainly allowed myself to fall into the original pull moment, thinking that this is what i want at the time ( almost said need there..lol) Thankfully i do think i have managed to pull myself from those types of situations, and keep myself in check. That was through lessons learned however. "Mentors" are something i do shy very far away from, having learned that it is merely a matter of time before a little more is expected. But then again, perhaps tis just my own experience.
 
"While many huff n�?puff endlessly about “walking the walk and talking the talk,�?the crucial question for you to ponder and answer is, “do they actually walk their talk?�?nbsp; The authenticity of their dominance or Mastery will be revealed to you by the consistency or inconsistency of doing so."
 
Agrees again, the only thing with this is, i simply do not allow One close enough to me to know this. The feelings i have float around, yet my mind is certainly not able to give in to explore anything. I do realise i cannot just hand over of myself on a whim as i once used to, so maybe in the end i am the one holding myself back and causing my own flitting issues. I get the inspired feeling, that  devotional feeling, and slow simmer it. Reality check time i call it...lol Why can't i have my cake and eat it too!!...lol
 
"I think it's normal and sensible for a submissive to gravitate towards Dominant people. With or without D/s a good friend is someone that enhances you, that makes you happy and gives something to your life in exchange for you giving something to theirs. It is no different with making friends with someone able to share their Dominance with you. "
 
I think you are saying it so well here dev, this is what i find i do when i say i flit. It is not that i am seeking something from Them, but rather enjoy the "rapore" i have going. Yes sometimes it brings about a craving for something more structured, but it isn't fair of me to expect that, and i would never be one to ask either. I just get all ...all  don't even know what i get like...lol Sometimes i do share, thoughts and feelings, confusion, those discussions are often the kind that i walk away from and think about for a good long while. LOL i love MacGuiver, now i just need to Mac my way into something that works! I've never given much thought to the substitution, but perhaps i will look at that idea a little more closely now.
 
"Sometimes it is so easy to brush their happiness off in a kind of 'aww shucks' manner, but the truth is not everyone has the ability or the desire to do extra special things for the ones they care about. Not everyone sees the need for those extra details or those insightful contributions that make a moment just right. - Take happiness from your abilities in that arena and pride in the fact you are wired that way. It is a special thing."
 
Expanding on the idea that i need to look a little more closely at things, come your words fury. I do gloss over those moments, simply because well that is day to day life, i do not think of what i offer in that sense, i just walk away happy that everyone else is. Now i will have to analyze this a little closer!
 
"Paying attention to myself and my sensuality/sexuality is something that is also very important- This important part of us is so easy to bury amidst the day to day details of a busy life. "
 
Ok here, i do have a bury my head in the sand issue. Those thoughts i do settle deep underneath pretty much everything. Sometimes i let them out in writings, poems. It is so odd that for such a time, it was a larger part of my "make-up" keeping it on a slow simmer, ready to be tapped into and shared, offered. I know i ignore ( or try) it now because there is no One to share it with.  Of late however, i do find it harder and harder to keep it under cover, perhaps i am slowly liberatting the little "slut" within...lol
 
"Learn to believe that those qualities are indeed a special thing in this sometimes unhappy, ugly, repressed and selfish world and appreciate Those who genuninely see and embrace you for possessing them. See the struggle to find those things inside of you and fine tune them as a valuable tempering of who and what you are - Enjoying what you bring to the table makes it that much easier to spread it out before someone else to savor.-"
 
Am certainly going to try to do this. Once i figure out just what qualities i find i hold...lol I think i need to really sit down and pull my thoughts together, like a little personal dissection of sorts. I need to focus on what it really is that pulls me in, and what i expect from that feeling for myself. Not sure if that makes a whole lot of sense, but in my cluttered little mind it does at the moment!..lol
 
To sum it all up, and again thanking Yyou Aall for the replies, it is nice to know i am not the only one to have felt this way ( yes fury i do take comfort in that!) I am also realising that it is not so much a need as i may have stated ( just a BIG want..lol) and that within myself, i need to find the right recipe wich works best for me. Perhaps one day there will be a "Guiding Hand" but it is important that i realise, i need to figure out how to "guide" myself and know myself before i can ever hope to have a well grounded self, that does not go through this little moment of wondering. Am i a submissive? meh..perhaps, for the moment i will just be glad with who i am. ( and maybe add a little fine tuning hehehe )
 
Always
~goddess~
xoxox
 

Reply
 Message 6 of 6 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameånniêSent: 7/26/2008 9:05 PM
Far from being "just" a question goddess, and far from being something foreign to submissives, what you describe is the very essence of some submissives; clearly you are one of them.  I doubt there is anyone that can completely articulate exactly how it manifests itself in everyday behavior, but the subtleties and desire to serve and please go on endlessly.  When the dominant stimulus is absent from the dynamics of our lives, the essence of who you are doesn't disappear.  It only becomes a bit more difficult to articulate the ways in which you may want to demonstrate to others not necessarily verse and chapter with that side of who you are as a person.  There is little doubt that satisfaction can be derived from your everyday interactions when you know that the little things you do are of such a special nature, even if you are the only one that understands the significance.  But, as has been said, it isn't all the way as satisfying as it would be if the person before you also understood the reasons you might like the service to be from your knees.  But, you know what?  Patience is one of those virtues especially bestowed on the submissive spirit, even if at times it feels like patience is the least of your virtues.

What I do is take a deep breath and simply feel content; content that I know who I am and what it means; content that there are those in my circle of friends that DO understand; content that there is enough learning to keep me busy even without the big bad presence of a dominant directing traffic in my life; and content that with what patience I learn from these times of solitude will be put to such wonderful practical use when again I'm with someone that it's all well and good, even if it doesn't feel all well and good at the time.  Structure in your life is not wholly the domain of what only others can offer you.  You are the most likely to author a set of behaviors that will enhance what another can offer you when the time is nigh, and this behavior will be recognizable to the discerning eye for exactly what it is.  The payoff for patience is huge.

I've read about and think it's true that there is this phenom called 'submissive frenzy'.  I'm not completely clear in my mind whether it's simply a response to sexuality tied to the terms of how dominance makes a submissive feel, or if it's deep rooted in the psyche of a submissive character.  Either way it's not something that has to take over in any sense.  I do believe however, it's what leads a less initiated submissive down some wrong paths at times, and can initiate a state of vulnerability that has to be recognized for what it is before anything constructive can be done to thwart a process of self-destructive behavior that substitutes for believing with all ones heart that they in fact are on right paths.  Such is the venue of the complexity of dominance and submission.  Each understanding of the little kinks in the paths of the submissive character helps towards understanding the nature of the "gentle" beast.

As with anything, when you take something vital away from what you have come to rely on it must be replaced in some sense or there is created a void in its place.  Take this time between meaningful connections with dominant influences in your life and use it as a time of introspective thought, and build a more solid core.  There is never enough time in life to reflect on those things that truly touch us.  Take this time and think of it as a gift.  You already, so much more than many, have a knowledge base and head start about who you are as a person.  It's a wonderful vantage point on which to look back and reflect.

What I've learned from what you have written and realize is that those blinding lights of first discovery don't have an end, and thank goodness they don't.  They are the glue that holds the community of dominance and submission together, and are what propels each towards greater self discovery, and so in that light thank you very much for your questions.
 
 
annie

First  Previous  2-6 of 6  Next  Last 
Return to Gentle Answers