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DEBATE BOARD : Leah or rachel
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Reply
 Message 1 of 17 in Discussion 
From: trisha  (Original Message)Sent: 8/14/2008 7:10 PM
I love the story of these two sisters. So different fom each other.  You have all of the jealousies, heartache..pain..schemeing. wants and desires.
I like Leah better than rachel..although I can share rachels understanding of being barren but even after leaving her fathers house she took idols with her.  Beauty on the outside but in such turmoil.  Leahs beauty mostly inward.
what do you think?


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Reply
 Message 3 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamePhedre7Sent: 8/15/2008 8:56 PM
Hi Trisha,
 
I too love the story of Leah and Rachel. One of my favorites, next to Esther.
 
Have you heard of the author Liz Curtis Higgs? She took this story from the Bible and expanded on it in a fictional account set in Ireland. She stayed remarkably close to the original text from scripture. It really gives a thorough illustration into the hearts and minds of Leah, Rachel, and even Jacob.

Reply
 Message 4 of 17 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/16/2008 1:03 AM
that sounds like a good read...I will get the book.  The very thing that Rachel wanted took her life and Leah became Mom of them all.  I felt sorry for Leah haveing to go into Jacob first , to be obedient to her dad. Then felt sorry for Jacob but for some reason my heart pains for rachel were dissimilar

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 Message 5 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMinisterBTSent: 8/16/2008 11:05 PM
Ya ever try to parrel the story of Jacaob and Esua with what happen with Rachel and Leah as it relates to him.  In his sin of disception and lies he was deceived and lied to -- reaping/sowing?

Reply
 Message 6 of 17 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/17/2008 12:20 AM
Excellent point... I do find it amazing......how things follow down the line  That study will prove rewarding....

Reply
 Message 7 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamePhedre7Sent: 8/17/2008 11:03 AM
I looked up the titles of the series by Liz Curtis Higgs for you, since I couldn't remember it. It's a series of 4 books collectively called Lowlands of Scotland. The first 3 are about Jacob, Rachel, Leah, etc., and the 4th book is about Dinah, Leah's daughter. (Amazing there was only one daughter with all those boys!)
 
Anyways the four titles are as follows:
Thorn in my Heart
Fair is the Rose
Whence Came a Prince
Grace in Thine Eyes
 

Reply
 Message 8 of 17 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/17/2008 9:24 PM
Thank you so much.... It would make sense that the fourth book would be about Dinah...the only daughter and raped as well

Reply
 Message 9 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamePhedre7Sent: 8/18/2008 8:30 PM
Dinah's story always intrigued me, simply because scripture doesn't tell us what she thought personally. All the other players in the story are heard but her. And after what happened to her, we don't hear of her again. Who she married, her children, how she played a part in the lives of her brothers, nothing.

Reply
 Message 10 of 17 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/18/2008 9:13 PM
The man who was with her really did want to marry her.  They all circumsized themselves and they were men...I could not imagine...When I worked in the hospital and a man came in for what one may thing would be a simple operation it is not for a grown man.
The prince seemed to love her.  All Dinah did was go to talk to the woman of shecham which should not had been a promblem since Jacob bought some of the land and had a tent pitched there.
I am sure dinah just needed woman company after being around her brothers
Hamor came to Jacob...everything should have been Jacobs decision..Look at what Hamor offered.
Then Jacobs sons took it all upon themselves. decietfully..that seemed to be a major promblem in this family.
Now Jacob to me seemed to be such a passive man and his concern was His whole household....He did not seem to be in much control of anything going on.
I think due to thr lack or retaliation Dinah was given to Hamor...Those are only my thoughts.
Poor leah, her only daughter...

Reply
 Message 11 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKiki40Sent: 8/19/2008 2:28 AM
Jacob's Beloved (no longer a member here ) actually recommended a fiction story to me once about Dinah entitled "The Red Tent." It was a very interesting insight into what life in a polygamist's community could have been like. And it was a good read, too. A bestseller, actually.
 

Reply
 Message 12 of 17 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/19/2008 3:43 AM
I have read that..it indeed was very informing...

Reply
 Message 13 of 17 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/19/2008 5:35 PM
I believe that is why Rachelk new to hide her idols there..
I heard a great sermon about not lifting anybodies skirt up...yours might get blown away...if i can only remember it.. I have to go look at my old videos..I still may have it.

Reply
 Message 14 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameIchmoSent: 8/20/2008 12:11 AM
Shalom group
 

All students of the Bible have heard the story of Jacob and his four wives. Jacob labored seven years for Rachel only to be tricked into marrying her sister Leah. From this beginning, Jacob ended up marrying Leah and her handmaid Zilpah, Rachel and her handmaid Bilhah. From these mothers, twelve sons and a daughter were born. The basic story is given to us in Genesis. When Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers, God used Joseph to preserve Jacob’s family by raising him up as the Viceroy of Egypt. Jacob’s family moved to Egypt and from there a great nation was born. From twelve sons, twelve tribes were formed to become the nation of Israel. But that is where the fun begins. The twelve tribes don’t quite line up with Jacob’s sons, and there really are thirteen tribes, not twelve. Jacob blessed his sons, but Moses blessed the tribes. Keeping this all straight is a minor Bible Study in its own right. But it is through that study that the story of the Messiah and His redemption comes forth. Oh, let us not forget Israel’s future at the return of Messiah. The twelve tribes become the 144,000 sealed sons of Israel with an important ministry just before the Messiah’s return.

The transformation of Jacob’s sons into tribes and finally into sealed servants is a fascinating journey through Scripture. In fact, it is a testimony of God’s mercy and grace. As they say when you’re about to fly away on a journey, "Buckle your seat belt, put your seat in the full upright position and make sure your tray tables are stowed in the up and locked position." We are going on a Biblical journey that is filled with mysteries of the Messiah given to us in symbols and blessings.

Leah bore Jacob six sons and one daughter: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, and Dinah. Bilhah, the handmaid of Rachel bore two sons: Dan and Naphtali. Zilpah, the handmaid of Leah, bore two sons: Gad and Asher. Rachel finally bore two sons: Joseph and Benjamin. The meaning of each name given is a fascinating story of conflict between the two sisters, Leah and Rachel, vying for the affections of Jacob. There really was no contest; Jacob loved Rachel dearly. However, in the course of naming the sons out of this conflict, a great Messianic prophecy was revealed.

Let’s quickly review how the sons were named.

Leah and Rachel were in a conflict. They both loved Jacob, but Jacob’s heart was for Rachel. However, it was Leah who began bearing him sons, while Rachel was without child.

First, Leah had Reuben "See! A son!"

Now the Lord saw that Leah was unloved, and He opened her womb, but Rachel was barren. And Leah conceived and bore a son and named him Reuben, for she said, "Because the Lord has seen my affliction; surely now my husband will love me." GEN 29:31-32

Leah had Simeon "hated."

Then she conceived again and bore a son and said, "Because the Lord has heard that I am unloved, He has therefore given me this son also." So she named him Simeon. GEN 29:33

Leah had Levi "loved."

And she conceived again and bore a son and said, "Now this time my husband will become attached to [love] me, because I have borne him three sons." Therefore he was named Levi. GEN 29:34

Then Leah had Judah "praise."

And she conceived again and bore a son and said, "This time I will praise the Lord." Therefore she named him Judah. GEN 29:35

Then she stopped bearing. Rachel had to do something. She desperately wanted to bear children for Jacob. So Rachel gave her handmaid to Jacob to father children for her to keep, Dan "vindicated - judged" and Naphtali "prevailed."

Now when Rachel saw that she bore Jacob no children, she became jealous of her sister; and she said to Jacob, "Give me children, or else I die." And she said, "Here is my maid Bilhah, go in to her, that she may bear on my knees, that through her I too may have children." So she gave him her maid Bilhah as a wife, and Jacob went in to her. And Bilhah conceived and bore Jacob a son. Then Rachel said, "God has vindicated me, and has indeed heard my voice and has given me a son." Therefore she named him Dan. And Rachel's maid Bilhah conceived again and bore Jacob a second son. So Rachel said, "With mighty wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister, and I have indeed prevailed." And she named him Naphtali. GEN 30:1-8

Leah was not going to idly sit by and let Rachel catch up, so she gave her handmaid Zilpah to bear children by Jacob, Gad "fortunate" and Asher "happy."

When Leah saw that she had stopped bearing, she took her maid Zilpah and gave her to Jacob as a wife. And Leah's maid Zilpah bore Jacob a son. Then Leah said, "How fortunate!" So she named him Gad. And Leah's maid Zilpah bore Jacob a second son. Then Leah said, "Happy am I! For women will call me happy." So she named him Asher. GEN 30:9-13

Then Leah again had two more sons, Issachar "wages" and Zebulun "dwell."

Now in the days of wheat harvest Reuben went and found mandrakes in the field, and brought them to his mother Leah. Then Rachel said to Leah, "Please give me some of your son's mandrakes." But she said to her, "Is it a small matter for you to take my husband? And would you take my son's mandrakes also?" So Rachel said, "Therefore he may lie with you tonight in return for your son's mandrakes." When Jacob came in from the field in the evening, then Leah went out to meet him and said, "You must come in to me, for I have surely hired you with my son's mandrakes." So he lay with her that night. And God gave heed to Leah, and she conceived and bore Jacob a fifth son. Then Leah said, "God has given me my wages, because I gave my maid to my husband." So she named him Issachar. And Leah conceived again and bore a sixth son to Jacob. Then Leah said, "God has endowed me with a good gift; now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons." So she named him Zebulun. GEN 30:14-20

Finally, Leah bore a daughter she called Dinah "justice."

And afterward she bore a daughter and named her Dinah. GEN 30:21

This was the only daughter born to Jacob and she symbolizes the female/bride elements of the story. Not much is told of her until we come to her controversial story of courtship and wedding that are told later. It is in her role as a bride that we seen the plan of God.

Finally, Rachel conceived Joseph "add to me."

Then God remembered Rachel, and God gave heed to her and opened her womb. So she conceived and bore a son and said, "God has taken away my reproach." And she named him Joseph, saying, "May the Lord give me another son." GEN 30:22-24

Jacob and his wives and children returned to the promised land. Near Bethlehem, Rachel died while giving birth to her second son. She called him the son of sorrows, but Jacob called him the "son of the right hand," Benjamin.

And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben_oni; but his father called him Benjamin. So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem). GEN 35:18-19

A very mysterious Messianic picture is given to us in the naming of Benjamin. He actually has two names: son of sorrows and son of the right hand. These are the two titles of the Messiah Himself. The Messiah was the man of sorrows for us, but He became the Son of the right hand of the Father.

The Scripture reviews for us at this point the twelve sons of Jacob.

Now there were twelve sons of Jacob__ the sons of Leah: Reuben, Jacob's first_born, then Simeon and Levi and Judah and Issachar and Zebulun; the sons of Rachel: Joseph and Benjamin; and the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's maid: Dan and Naphtali; and the sons of Zilpah, Leah's maid: Gad and Asher. These are the sons of Jacob who were born to him in Paddan_aram. GEN 35:22-26

In hindsight we can see that God purposed Jacob to marry Leah although he deeply loved Rachel. It is from Leah’s child, Judah, that the Messiah was brought forth. Therefore, there is a specific prophetic picture of the Messiah given to us as well in Leah’s children.

The names of Leah’s seven children (God’s plan) tells the great Messianic story. By referring to the meaning of their names, the pattern is given.

The Messiah will be God’s SON (Reuben). He will be HATED (Simeon) by some and LOVED (Levi) by others. He will be the WAGES (Issachar) for sin so that we can DWELL (Zebulun) with Him when we become His BRIDE (Dinah).

God then gave us another Messianic theme in the life of Joseph. Joseph’s trip to Egypt, his rise to power and the resulting reconciliation of his brethren to him in Egypt is a classic piece of Messianic prophecy. Joseph was the rejected son who became the "Bread man of Life." Yeshua was rejected of His brethren and was the "True Bread from Heaven."

Jacob and his sons settled in Egypt under Joseph’s care and the first of the blessings and symbols began to emerge. This is where the story takes a twist. Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manassah were promoted to the position of Jacob’s sons. Jacob’s sons now numbered thirteen.

And now your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manassah shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon are. But your offspring that have been born after them shall be yours; they shall be called by the names of their brothers in their inheritance. GEN 48:5-6

Jacob’s first blessing was put upon Ephraim (the younger over Manassah who was older). This follows the previous generations of Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau. Jacob later blessed all his sons with unique and specific blessings. It is from these blessings that some of the symbolism for the twelve tribes begins.

The Blessings of Jacob upon his sons.

Jacob’s blessings carried a prophetic tone and used a word picture (symbol) to illustrate it. He made each blessing appropriate for each son. In some cases, no symbol comes forth; it comes from the blessings of Moses for each tribe.

Then Jacob summoned his sons and said, "Assemble yourselves that I may tell you what shall befall you in the days to come." GEN 49:1

All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father said to them when he blessed them. He blessed them, every one with the blessing appropriate to him. GEN 49:28

Reuben

Reuben, you are my first_born; My might and the beginning of my strength, Preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. Uncontrolled as water, you shall not have preeminence, because you went up to your father's bed; then you defiled it__ he went up to my couch. GEN 49:3-4

Reuben’s blessing is more of an explanation to him and us as to why he is not in leadership. Throughout the centuries, even the sages have commented that not even a prophet has come from Reuben. Therefore, a tribal symbol is not seen here yet.

Simeon and Levi

Simeon and Levi are brothers; their swords are implements of violence. Let my soul not enter into their council; let not my glory be united with their assembly; because in their anger they slew men, and in their self_will they lamed oxen. Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; and their wrath, for it is cruel. I will disperse them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel. GEN 49:5-7

Simeon and Levi are grouped together because of their violent tendencies. Jacob called for their scattering in the land of Israel and that is what happened. The Levites, as priests, would have no land inheritance, but instead, were scattered. Simeon was likewise scattered, predominantly into the Judean wilderness. Again, there is no tribal symbol given here.

Judah

Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons shall bow down to you. Judah is a lion's whelp; from the prey, my son, you have gone up. He couches, he lies down as a lion, and as a lion, who dares rouse him up? The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples. He ties his foal to the vine, and his donkey's colt to the choice vine; he washes his garments in wine, and his robes in the blood of grapes. His eyes are dull from wine, and his teeth white from milk. GEN 49:8-12

The lion of Judah is one of the strongest and most enduring symbols for the tribes of Israel. The Messiah came from this tribe and the tribal symbol is equally adapted to the Messiah. There is much argument as to what "until Shiloh comes" means. I take a much simpler view of this prophetic element and link it with the Messiah second coming. Shiloh was where the tabernacles was set-up in the land. I view this expression as a future reference to when the Messiah will tabernacle with us in the land. The words following Shiloh are a picture of the Messiah with us.

They are all descriptions that invoke reverence and esteem.

Zebulun

Zebulun shall dwell at the seashore; and he shall be a haven for ships, and his flank shall be toward Sidon. GEN 49:13

Ship is the symbol for Zebulun. Zebulun was marked by his skill as a trading merchant (the commerce of ships).

Issachar

Issachar is a strong donkey, lying down between the sheepfolds. When he saw that a resting place was good and that the land was pleasant, he bowed his shoulder to bear burdens, and became a slave at forced labor. GEN 49:14-15

Issachar is sometimes symbolized by the donkey carrying a load, but the predominate symbol is a set of tents that we’ll explain later. The donkey is said to be carrying the burden of Torah.

Dan

Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a horned snake in the path, that bites the horse's heels, so that his rider falls backward. GEN 49:16-17

Dan is symbolized as a serpent. Generally, a serpent is not viewed as a positive symbol in the western world. However, in eastern logic the serpent is seen as wise and stealthy. That is its intended meaning here. Dan was to be able to take on enemies far greater than himself by using strategy and stealth.

Between Dan’s and Gad’s blessing is this singular thought.

For Thy salvation I wait, O Lord. GEN 49:18

In the Hebrew, Yeshua’s name is given directly. "For Thy Yeshua I wait, O Lord." The sages have debated for some time as to whether this is part of Dan’s blessing, part of Gad’s, or a stand alone thought parenthetically inserted. I tend to favor the last option. I view Jacob’s request as an acknowledged condition for all blessings. A blessing in this mortal life grows rapidly pale without the redemption and salvation of God to enjoy it.

Gad

As for Gad, raiders shall raid him, but he shall raid at their heels. GEN 49:19

Gad is symbolized by a band of warriors working together. Raiders were considered to be highly trained and disciplined fighters that use a variety of weapons from sword to spear and arrows.

Asher

As for Asher, his food shall be rich, and he shall yield royal dainties. GEN 49:20

Asher is symbolized by flowers, but you will note that they are to be "royal." Royal dainties are befitting the King and the value of the symbol strikes the chord of the Messiah.

Naphtali

Naphtali is a doe let loose, he gives beautiful words. GEN 49:21

Naphtali is symbolized by a deer or a hind. When a deer bucks, it rears up on his hind legs and literally jumps or bucks to begin its run. Its agile feet and strong legs are matched by a great sense of balance. Therefore, a deer can dart and run straight up a mountain leaping over terrain that others can not travel. Napthali’s blessing and symbol was for agility and strength.

Joseph

Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a spring; its branches run over a wall. The archers bitterly attacked him, and shot at him and harassed him; but his bow remained firm, and his arms were agile, from the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel), from the God of your father who helps you, and by the Almighty who blesses you with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lies beneath, Blessings of the breasts and of the womb. The blessings of your father have surpassed the blessings of my ancestors up to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills; may they be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of the one distinguished among his brothers. GEN 49:22-26

Joseph is the dominant figure in the book of Genesis as compared to the other sons of Jacob. He is a profound Messianic picture for us. He was rejected, cast into a pit, sold, only to be raised up above them all. Jacob’s blessing speaks to God’s choice of him to provide for them all. This is the Biblical definition and theme of what a Messiah is and does (One who is sent for others, who pays the price and provides salvation for all.) One of the symbols for Joseph is a great tree with access to the living waters of life whose branch reaches to others that are blocked by a wall. This is another symbol of the Messiah as well. He is the source of living waters (the Rock), the first fruits (of many brethren), and the Branch (springing from the root).

Benjamin

Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he devours the prey, and in the evening he divides the spoil. GEN 49:27

Benjamin is symbolized by the wolf. The wolf has come to also symbolize the menace of some. In this case, Benjamin is a menace to the enemies of Israel. The Messiah will ultimately divide the spoil of His enemies in His kingdom.

Shalom


Reply
 Message 15 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamePhedre7Sent: 8/20/2008 1:18 AM
Very interesting read, Ichmo. I've never thought of it quite like that, but I like it, especially the part about the meaning of Leah's children.
 
As far as Dinah goes, I don't think she was completely innocent because she would have known that God wanted her family to remain separate from the nations around them. That was the point of circumcision. Scripture says she was "defiled" which could only apply to Shechem not being circumcised. In order for it to be classified as rape, she was supposed to cry out, but scripture doesn't record whether she did or not. Jacob wanted to make amends and work with Hamor so that his people would become as the Israelites, but his sons only wanted revenge for their only sister. Jacob had every intention of honoring Shechem as Dinah's husband, but Simeon and Levi had already hardened their hearts. After those people became circumcised, they had no reason to call Dinah a harlot, but still they did.
 
I wonder that if Jacob had managed to stop them from the mass murder of all those people, would they have turned on their sister instead, treating her as a harlot and stoning her to death?

Reply
 Message 16 of 17 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/21/2008 4:50 AM
dinah was defiled in the 'soiled' and removal of virginity....most woman in the day were easily overtaken and I am sure there was a mutual attraction.  absolam defiled his sister.  Are you suggesting dinahs rape was her fault...or are you suggesting it was mutual lovemaking....  it does say raped....

Reply
 Message 17 of 17 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 8/21/2008 4:56 AM
  1. what happened to my defilement post....there is--  phyisical defilement
  2. religious defilement
  3. ceremonial defilement
  4. sexual defilement

the removal of a womans hymen is just as a covenant than any other blood covenant and once removed  she was worth nothing to a man.


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