Coping with the Psychopath/Narcissist Child

I lost my son from a early age....counseling, training, love, nothing changed his course in life. He showed me a sweet, giving nature but the things he gave were stolen. I never gave up hope he could be saved. I spent the majority of his life watching and trying to save him from himself. Loving him and trying every tool known to man to get the help he needed to be a better person. He still lived his life with no boundries. At age 18 he ended up in prison. One day when he was visiting from his many prison stays he and I were talking about his future....what careers he could look into since he has always tested very high on all I Q testing.....I finally say him without his mask of sanity, he turned to me and said I have a career and it is what I am doing now....So of course he is back in prison. The thing about P's is they are very self-destructive and set themselves up to be caught since they think they are superior to others they then take chances no real criminal would ever consider. So they get caught. There is a big difference between a common criminal and a P. It is like there is something missing in the brain of a P.....a conscience and empathy. And nothing teaches them those qualities. So are they sane? I don't think so in the true sense of the word. All should read the Mask of Sanity a great book that peels back the layers of a P. I have and it has made me a mother who now knows she has a son that will never be main stream except in prison. I am accepting of this reality but I still hurt. So does this mental disorder come from genes or is it brought about by his home? No one knows the answer for sure on this subject it is just quess work on many professionals part. But one thing I am sure of he is missing something in his brain just as most who have other mental illinesses. It is like he has a choice but not really...his lack of empathy and boundries gives him freedom to do the things none of us would even consider. He is not violent or takes life but someday he will be killed while breaking into a business or someones home...I know this as sure as I know my son is sick. He feels things but only if it effects him personally. Other than that he has zero feelings for others except to use them as tools to get him something he needs or wants at that moment. P are also highly impulsive and that causes them to underestimate those around them and they can get caught because of this weakness. Because they can charm, lie better than most trained actors it is easy to let them con you. I don't anymore since I have seen my son without his mask....but I worry about those he can fool. It breaks my heart to think I have brought into the world someone who can harm others.

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Message 21 of 35 in Discussion

From:

bengalbuddy

Sent: 10/01/2008 1:37 p.m.

Hi, Twink, everyone! This discussion has been very helpful to me as far as making sense of the feelings we have in common. Suzanne, I know what you mean by the "bad mother". I too, have a blessedly normal son, and we are very proud of him. With P son, I was told by my own mother that he needed "discipline." Hey, if only that would have worked! I got parenting books from therapists.What an insult! For years, I begged for help. They did not know how/what they were dealing with. I don't tell people that he is a sociopath. The number one reason is because they don't believe me, and the number two reason, they laugh, thinking I'm kidding. I say that he has a mental illness that keeps him from having normal relationships, or that we are estranged, which we are, by the way. I do hear from him every once in awhile, but all I say is "glad to hear you are doing okay, gotta go, bye". I can never let my guard down again because to do so would be destruction for me and my family. P son is about to turn 26, and he has not changed one bit. The lack of empathy is what literally makes me feel sick to my stomach. It is a death. It took me 10 years to come to full acceptance. Journaling has helped me and I saw a counselor for awhile, but I felt that even she thought I was exaggerating and/or did not believe me, so I dropped her. My husband is probably the only one that has helped me and knows the truth. (He introduced me to Robert Hare's book.) He is wonderful and I don't know what I would do without him. While our stories are so sad, it is important for us to talk and work through our feelings. Most of us have other people that we love and that depend on us. We must go on for them.

Message 22 of 35 in Discussion

From:

S11021

Sent: 10/01/2008 3:50 p.m.

I think at some point we have to learn to love ourselves enough to go on for ourselves. I have read so much about these P's it is becoming such a jumble in my brain where I have got all my information. But from what I have read they become less active in antisocial breaking of the law about the age 50. The issue is do they live that long and if so what quality of life do they have at the time? They usually start having health issues because you can't abuse your body as much as they do and not have something go wrong. But if they live I have read they calm down a bit. I don't know about being nicer or more normal like the general pop. But for them it is a improvement. I doubt I will be alive when mine hits that age so it is a moot point for me. I would be in my mid to late eighties and that is not something I am looking forward to with my own health issues...smile.

Message 23 of 35 in Discussion

From:

twinkletoes678

Sent: 10/01/2008 9:13 p.m.

Age and this condition is a scary thing. The older we are when we have our children, the older we are when we find out about their sickness......I was 40 when I started to wonder what was really going on with my daughter and reasonably fit and able bodied....its scary just thinking about how I would have coped had I been 20 years or so older.....there have been times now when I just didn't have the energy to battle with her anymore.....my own mother is 20 years older than I am....it has worried me should my daughter play the silly games with her..my mother now just wouldn't be up to the job I don't think.yet was a force to be reckoned with in her earlier days.

Message 24 of 35 in Discussion

From:

sparkysmoonlady

Sent: 14/01/2008 6:54 a.m.

Hi Twink

And everyone else posting here

I can in here today to check on this thread - and it's a very important thread

I am wondering about people growning out ot their bad behaviour - around 50 - okay - that might work - but let me know

What I do know is that death has not taken the ugly past away from me.

Sure - I am not going to get a phone call or an unexpected visit from the police.

That is such fun - yeah?

But at odd times when there is no one around and it is quiet - sometimes I dream - at night - and wake to a memory so bad it tears me apart and I am back over twenty years ago in a nightmare that is always hiding when I am about my ordinary life

My parents could not handle this - and I often feel what ever the trouble was they turned away trying to force my then-hushand into being a father-figure he could not be and the whole lot down-loaded on me

And my neighbours were such experts!!

And the teachers - even better - wow

They told me I had to do something but they never told me what it was.

The heasdmaster told me the only thing to do was to have him made a ward of the State - which is was - but Community Services plagued us continually to have him home for visits and holidays and own lives were constantly disrupted.

I learned where to go to find the ragged people under bridges and piers. They listened. They understood. They knew him. They told me the truth and they never judged me in my presence.

What brings me this afternoon? - only this.

I can still feel how cold he was - and see how still he was - and there was no life.

I thought it was over - but it never will be.

I might be okay for a week - a month - then I catch up with my water works - crying the same amount of tears in x amount of time - plus extras - on one day.

He was an adopted child and I committed to him and I did what I could -

I never let go though I had to practise Tough Love.

I often drove all over the city at night to rescue him - once nearly all the way to the nearest provincial city - and brought him home - only to have him leave before anyone was up in the morning.

Why?

I don't know - I suppose I thought I was letting his birth mother down.

It must have been terrible when she found out - as she did.

I can't help anyone. Sometimes I can't help myself.

But I dream of him and wake and cannot remember where he is - and I remember easily I already have great grand children.

I know where every single person is even in my deepest sleep

But when I dream of him - I am lost in a time-warp. I have been dreaming of something good or bad that happened around 30 more or less years ago.

If I wake from a dream about my daughter she has her family around her and I am smiling.

But dreams of the lost, trouble naughty boy and indelible and awful.

I do not usually bare my heart like this - and I suppose I am say that I read these boards every so often and usually leave a message.

And I don't really know why because I can help anyone.

But I will never judge you. I won't ask unless you tell me. You can trust me not to tell other people.

All I can tell you is that over 21 years ago when my then-husband told he had taken his life in Juvenile Detention - my first thought was "It's over"

No such luck - I was his mother and this broke my heart - and it seems to have stopped.

But it will never be over - for as tough as I was with Tough Love - I still love him - and that's tough love indeed

But in reality - I am okay - most of the time

But in truth - I am who I am now because of him - and I would not change that.

For as hard as all this has been - this is my life and this is who I am and although I do not post often - I am one of you.

I think that even in death - there is a truth here in this group that makes it okay for me to be here

When I get into groups of bereaved parents - it was all about the beautiful child and this is a sorta secret I have to keep there - they couldn't take it - they couldn't understand.

Except for some of those bereaved by suicide - they know - some of them

As I do - as you do - that this is complex -

So - do the best you can. Don't let them take advantage of your good humour, your good days or your rights as a human being to have better treatment

Because I did what I could and what I couldn't do I didn't and I feel okay about myself in all of this.

But in truth - I am the only person in the family older than him that can say this

They never lived through it - they renegged on both of us - now that's just plain bad

So we are misunderstood

But we understand each other - I think

Sparky

Message 25 of 35 in Discussion

From:

S11021

Sent: 14/01/2008 1:37 p.m.

Sparky it is healing to speak about your pain of loss. That is one way to heal. Yes we know what you feel deep down and we know there is no greater pain to the heart that a P child can so eagerly inflict. Sadly they are often the ones who kill themselve. I have often thought it is because they are already emotionally dead and dying in the flesh is no big deal to them. Who knows why they kill themselves but they do. And we are left with the guilt and pain the somehow we could have stopped it if we had been better parents. Not true of course but it still lingers in our brain. This self-destructive part of them is the reason they do the things they do to cause themselves harm. You are a brave and wonderful mother and you did the best you could with a person who could not be better. Love to you....and a big hug...Sherryl

Message 26 of 35 in Discussion

From:

silverlining

Sent: 15/01/2008 12:39 a.m.

I'm really thankful to S11021 for starting this thread.

Bengal - Did you feel the counselling was of any benefit at all? I find it hard to believe that a therapist, however good they are, can truly empathise with what we go though. Everyone understands here. It sounds riciculous to myself, yet it's exactly the way I feel. 'My son's alive, but I'm grieving for him' - very, very few people can understand that. Glad you all can.

Sparks - I can relate to your feelings so much. Athough my son is still alive, I grieve, then if/when he dies, I feel I'll just continue on the grieving road, it never coming to an end, as you say. I am hoping that emdr will help me overcome the problems of ptsd, mostly son related. I suppose that's why I'm here now, I've been triggered by him, causing all sorts of memories, Just a though.

(I've heard their behaviour isn't as bad after the age of 40's).

Message 27 of 35 in Discussion

From:

S11021

Sent: 15/01/2008 2:37 p.m.

silver, I know you did not ask me but couseling does not work for them. They do not respond to the type of couseling that most of us do. There is a special type of couseling that has been somewhat successful with some P's.

When a child dies the parent grieves as long as they are alive... and everyone gets that. But when you have a P no one really gets it unless they to have a P. So being on this type of support board is helpful in knowing you are not alone. We grieve our whole lives too. Plus we have to put up with the stigma of others thinking that our P has something to do with our bad parenting and that is another layer of pain.

Message 28 of 35 in Discussion

From:

bengalbuddy

Sent: 15/01/2008 6:14 p.m.

Hi, Silver-Counseling was helpful for me with my PTSD, i.e, she helped me to understand the cause of it and how to deal with it. I needed her to believe me as far as my P was concerned and I don't feel that she did and that is why I dropped her. Rehabs, hospitals, therapists, counselors and pych doctors , even jail, were a total waste of time and money for P son. Yes, I do understand the grief. It is just awful. I have been through every stage several times. I have been taking an antidepressent for several years, now, and it has helped tremendously. I actually have some good days.

Message 29 of 35 in Discussion

From:

silverlining

Sent: 15/01/2008 11:25 p.m.

S11021 - I was only asking about counselling for my own emotional well being, it happens to be rather important to me, lol. I m beyond expecting anything to work or change the ways of a P. I've quit taking the blame for my sons actions too. afterall, he is an adult and makes his own choices, bad as they are!

Bengal - I'm wondering if your ptsd is a direct result of your childs' actions (or whether there was a P father the past)? Do you think you relive the grief because of ptsd or because of the child we are dealing with? Sorry for all the questions - it's not like you just ask the next lady at the check out these sorts of questions! If the anti depressants do you good, they're no bad thing. I'm on them too. Good days do outweigh the bad in time. I'm hoping to have emdr too.I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It works for some and I'm hoping it will work for me. I'll keep you posted.

Message 30 of 35 in Discussion

From:

bengalbuddy

Sent: 16/01/2008 12:57 p.m.

Silver-yes, the PTSD is a result of P son's actions.( aggravated assault to me with a knife) The grief is/was because he is a P. I am now in the acceptance stage and I hope to stay there. They appear to be two different issues. The passage of time has also helped. It has been 10 years since my P left home. How about you? Do you ever hear anything or have any contact?

Message 31 of 35 in Discussion

From:

S11021

Sent: 16/01/2008 2:08 p.m.

counseling has been helpful to me and understanding that I am not in charge of changing my son. But in charge of how I react to his behaviour. I tried meds and do take some. They help me relax and deal. I stopped counseling because I got to a place I accepted what is happening as not being my fault. So yes I think a lot of good counselers do understant the P and focus on how you are reacting to the p. Cognitive counselers seemed to work better for me.

Message 32 of 35 in Discussion

From:

silverlining

Sent: 17/01/2008 12:00 p.m.

I crumble emotionally when he is in my life physically or merely by someone mentioning his name. I'm swaying between him being a P, a drug user and maybe having ptsd himself or a combination of hin having all thee things. How many other children are P's and drug users? I feel I need a concrete evidence before I decide which way to go with him. Life seems hell whether he's in my life or not, at times.

Message 33 of 35 in Discussion

From:

bengalbuddy

Sent: 17/01/2008 3:37 p.m.

S11021-Glad to hear that counseling has helped you. Silver-I have been where you are, now. You are grieving for your son. It is a terrible place to be. To answer your questions-P's do use drugs & alcohol. Mine has been using since age 12 or 13. He still does, as far as I know. What finally convinced me was the pattern of behavior over time. He conned us into thinking he was mentally ill. He has been diagnosed with everything you can think of. All of it was an act. When they are kids, it is harder since so many mental illnessess have similar symptoms. My son has all of the classic personality traits of a P. As a young child, the lying, and failure to respond to discipline were very troublesome. He had a violent temper. Lack of empathy and failure to learn from his mistakes have also existed as long as I can remember. All of this was long before he started using drugs. For a long time, I was in denail. I did not want to believe he could be so evil. But like Robert Hare says, "He knows the words, but not the music."

Message 34 of 35 in Discussion

From:

S11021

Sent: 17/01/2008 5:38 p.m.

You know guys, I too fought the P thing and was in denial. I thought it was something that time would take care of and that he was just hard headed and had to learn everything the hard way...but of course the issue was he never learned anything positive from his mistakes instead just got more clever in hiding them....so I had to get more clever to catch him...it was such a horrible time remembering how I could never trust him...I used to have him check in ever 15 minutes and that was when he was 12 not younger and if he did not come in on time I would not allow him to return to his outside play time...it was a constant struggle to make sure he did not take off to the store to steal or ????? And here I was like a prison guard making him check in constantly so he would not get into trouble. I drove him to and from school to make sure he was there. So my life with him was a constant watching of him and making sure he followed through on things. Why? Because I got sick of the constant time spent in Juvie court with him. From age 13 onward it was one thing after another. Even after 18 I still tried to rescue him. It has taken me years to let go of the feelings that somehow something I can do will make a difference in him....NOT! That is the guilt we parents carry along with the loss of our dreams. So yes counseling helped me let go of some feeling of control I never had or that I was so powerful I could save him...I can't! And I know he has to save himself and that is his choice not mine....S1

Message 35 of 35 in Discussion

From:

Katilac39

Sent: 25/02/2008 5:50 a.m.

Silver,
Hiya!

I'm new here, and have been reading and reading and in some cases RE-reading everyone's stories and advice. Was just about to jump in head first when I saw your post.

Most, almost all, drug users are self medicating for one reason or another. I can only surmise that where most people self med to numb pain or feelings, a P would do it to try and actually FEEL something. Anything.

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