MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
ALL MY TUDORS...history chat[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  ♦Greetings!  
  ♦Bits & Pieces  
  ♦Death & Burial  
  ♦Brasses & Monuments  
  Read this BEFORE you apply for membership!  
  ♦Group Guidelines  
  ♦To the Boards  
  ♦Message Board  
  
  General  
  
  The Dark Ages  
  
  The Normans  
  
  The Plantagenets  
  
  The Tudors  
  
  The Stuarts  
  
  Mysteries  
  
  Book Talk  
  
  Tudor Topics  
  
  Crusades  
  
  RBOR  
  
  WOTR  
  
  Right Royal Xmas  
  
  Royal Holidays  
  
  Misc Pages  
  ♦AMT Member Map  
  ♦AMT Member List  
  ♦This Week in History  
  ♦Castle of the Day  
  ♦AMT Goes to the Movies  
  ♦Lovely Links  
  ♦Brilliant Books  
  ♦Royal Begats  
  ♦The Royal Book of Records  
  ♦The Crusades  
  ♦The Wars of the Roses  
  ♦Six Wives  
  ♦Off With Her Head  
  ♦The Reformation in England  
  ♦The Tudors and the Tower  
  ♫Tudor Music  
  ♦Tudor Limericks  
  ♦Elizabethan Insults  
  ♦Elizabethan Dressing  
  ♦Elizabethan Makeup  
  ♦The Invincible Armada  
  ♦The Great Fire of London  
    
  Pictures  
  Manager Tools  
  
  
  Tools  
 
The Plantagenets : Edward III, bad rap?
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
 Message 1 of 7 in Discussion 
From: O'hUigin  (Original Message)Sent: 1/7/2003 12:24 AM
I read a book recently about Edward II.  I confess he has always interested me because of his most unusual death, or what is generally accepted about his death.  I was considering the irony of his deposition, death and then the cultish-like public reaction towards his memory.  In short, the book attempted to portray Edward II as less of a worthless king, and more of a man whose interests deviated from what a normal mideavil king was supposed to be interested in.
 
In short, do you think Edward II got a bad historical "rap?"  How do you account for the public pilgramages to his tomb compared to the public outrage at his bad government?  Do you think his cousin, Thomas of Lancaster was worse than he?
 
Thought it might be interesting discussion.


First  Previous  2-7 of 7  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 7 in Discussion 
From: O'hUiginSent: 1/7/2003 2:22 AM
Sorry!  I'm stupid.  This should be titled "Edward II, bad rap?"

Reply
 Message 3 of 7 in Discussion 
From: GreensleevesSent: 1/7/2003 6:09 AM
He got the "bad rap" as he was a poor king for his time.  He seemed to be a more "modern" type of royal, interesting in pursuing his own pleasures at the expense of administration, content to let others assume his duties.  Unfortunately, his "favorites" were not all that well-equipped for the job either, hence the outrage.
 
He got the public pilgrimages to his tomb because there had not been a deposition of an English king since the Dark Ages.  The medieval mindset was in awe of "the divine right of kings", considering the crown as being delivered straight from God & untouchable no matter what he did; even John & Henry III managed to hang onto the throne despite revolts & reforms.  Removal of God's anointed was a serious business to undertake.  Isabella's open affair with Mortimer tarnished her queenly role & made her "the bad guy" in the whole sordid situation, garnering sympathy for her husband despite his own reputation (sexist double standard).

Reply
 Message 4 of 7 in Discussion 
From: O'hUiginSent: 1/7/2003 11:29 PM
 I felt the same way until I read the bok I read.

For instance, his personal pursuits were "unkingly" for the time, but if you compare his ability to have the common touch with, say, Henry V's life before he was a king, then itmerely seems unconventional.  Whereas it was considered a strength in some royals, it has been held against Edward II.  As to his preference to let others take care of the government, there is enough evidence to show that Edward II took as active a role as Henry III did.

His favorites weren't necessarily bad administrators, according to this book.  In fact Gaveston was very fit, especially in the martial arts department.  He did show up all the nobles at one tournament and was victorious in many more.  He was a capable man, but he wasn't a noble.  He just snubbed people and used his closeness to the king to act out of what people thought was his place.  But, I think E2 gave him the title of Earl of Cornwall at one time.  As for the Despensers, the book maintains they were both very capable, especially the younger one, who seems to have continued E1’s efforts to make certain government offices independent of the Council.  However, the Despensers were not of the old nobility and were overly greedy, which was not a good thing at the time.  Therefore, his favorites were just bad politicians and not necessarily ncompetant.

As for E2’s military ability, he was supposedly quite capable.  He may not have had the strategic ability of his father and his son, but he was strong, he never died in combat and even John of Gaunt didn’t put up the W’s that Edward the Black Prince did.  E2 was just not superior.  It doesn’t mean he was ineffectual.

Thus, we come to Thomas, Earl of Lancaster, his cousin, who had even less of a taste for hands on involvement than E2, but who thought he should still hold the offices.  He was a political creature, but didn’t want to do the work.  His standing as Prince of the Blood allowed him to subvert the crowns authority and create many problems for E2, very similar to the ones in which H3 had to deal with.  Only Thomas was not above thinking he had the right to call his own parliaments and treaty with the Scots, which he did.  If Gaveston or the Despensers had done something like Lancaster did, they would undoubtedly have been drawn and quartered.    They didn’t, though, because they were loyal to the crown, whereas Lancaster was loyal to his own idea of the power of the nobles.

As for E2 being gay, well R2 and W2 were also supposedly gay.  J1 was supposed to have been gay.  E2 was probably just more loyal to the idea of love and friendship than to the idea of being politically correct.

The book is fascinating.  I’ll go back to the library and post the name of it.

 <o:p></o:p>


Reply
 Message 5 of 7 in Discussion 
From: BerengariaSent: 1/8/2003 6:05 PM
Those are all good points re: Gaveston & the Despensers; however, I think the baronial opposition to them goes back to what was said previously regarding the divine right of kings.  As God's anointed, surrounding oneself with the lower orders rather than those of noblest blood was a faux pas as they were seen to be unworthy to be going about the king's business.  Additionally, this spurred jealousy among those who were qualified and of sufficient rank, creating friction within the king's council to have persons of lower birth taking precedence and having the king's ear when they did not.  Lancaster, much like  Gloucester with Richard II, seems to have been superbly unqualified yet felt he should have unqualified power simply by virtue of birth.  He is usually either portrayed as a martyr attempting to correct the horrendous mistakes of Edward's favorites, or as a troublemaker wanting to seize the reins of government and possibly the crown for himself.  The Plantagenet younger sons seemed to always have a problem with their birth order and subsequent rank.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Edward ultimately have him beheaded for his colossal interferences?
 
As far as Edward himself, had Isabella not fled to France with Mortimer, deposition probably would not have occurred.  His mistake was in sending Edward III to join his mother, ostensibly to do homage for the French holdings.  Without the young prince as a figurehead, it's doubtful whether Isabella and Mortimer could have rallied much support to displace Edward II from his throne.  I tend to think that he probably was gay, had some weird fetishes, or was abusive to his wife, as a queen doesn't invade her adopted country and shove her husband off the throne every day unless provoked in some way beyond human endurance.  I think flaunting the Mortimer affair was her way of revalidating herself as a woman, and Edward had to have played some part in that.

Reply
 Message 6 of 7 in Discussion 
From: EchoSent: 2/21/2003 5:36 AM
John the First was said to be gay?  That's a new one on me!  (I actually think most of the royals were just lousy with women...)

Reply
 Message 7 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1Sent: 2/22/2003 3:22 PM
Of the Normans and Plantagenets the only ones who have historically been acknowleged as being "gay" were William 2, Richard 1 and Edward 2.  I don't believe I have ever come accross anything (reliable) which has shown either King John or Richard 2 as "gay".
 
I agree that Isabella was a definate factor in Eddy 2's downfall.  His "friends" which were given such lofty potitions and titles may or may not have had the abilities to perform the duties which thier titles required, the point is they chose to do nothing but "play" with the King!
 
Please, do post the title and author of that book you read, O'hUigin.  It sounds like it is one of those fictionalized accounts.  While they do use much fact in them, they also take much "litterary liceince" as well.

First  Previous  2-7 of 7  Next  Last 
Return to The Plantagenets