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| | | From: Greensleeves (Original Message) | Sent: 9/29/2008 12:00 AM |
I have looked & looked as I thought there was a thread on this but mayhap not so forgive me if I am repeating myself & someone else finds it LOL I was thinking about "the rough wooing" & what-iffing on Mary of Guise packing MQOS off to France posthaste. What if, like what happened previously with one of the Scots Jameses & with David Bruce, the English had managed to gain possession of MQOS's person & married her to Edward, as Henry VIII desired? There's a good chance, being as sickly as Edward got those last couple years of hs reign, that the marriage may never have been consummated (seeing as Francis I was same, ya gotta wonder there as well if he & MQOS ever did it, could explain her infatuation with Darnley if not) & MQOS would not have produced a Tudor heir. If she had, not a problem & good for Jane Grey's head LOL, look how young Margaret Beaufort was when she spawned Henry VII, after all. But if she hadn't....with all the confusion over Henry's bastardization of both Mary & Elizabeth, and with MQOS being in the direct Tudor line via Margaret Tudor, Henry's older sister....with MQOS already in place in London, crowned as queen consort at least (if not queen regnant considering the bloodline), being not only Edward's relict but the next INDISPUTABLY LEGITIMATE claimant to the throne, what would've happened? Would there have been a Battle of the Two Marys instead of Mary's assertation against Jane? Certainly Edward's intimate circle of advisers might have proclaimed MQOS as rightful heir since Henry himself declared Mary illegitimate. After all, they had naught left but girls to choose from, anyway, save the Lennox boys who don't seem to have been serious contenders at the time, so what difference would it have made to back that one, the one they could conceivably control the best? The Marys were separated in age by a good 20 yrs, & Mary Tudor was in her declining years of fertility whereas Mary Stuart had just enetered them, also a plus for the future could they find her the "right" husband (enter Guildford Dudley, stage right? or Darnley, again?). They were both, however, Catholics, & Mary Tudor got over that hump easily enough in opposing Northumberland's party; could MQOS, nicely coached, have done the same? Or would she have converted to Protestantism once Edward's young & malleable bride, & therefore been a more appealing religious prospect than Henry's eldest? If Mary Tudor had prevailed, would she have permitted MQOS to run off to Edinburgh & keep her piece of the British Isles pie? Or would MQOS have found herself in captivity a whole lot earlier? Then who would've succeeded Elizabeth with no James VI? If the rough wooing had succeeded, COULD MQOS have been Queen of England after Edward's demise? Opinions? |
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| | From:  MarkGB5 | Sent: 10/3/2008 5:00 PM |
Her religion was the big stumbling block, I doubt if she would have been considered as Queen regnsant unless she converted to the Cof E. It all leads to the question, if Elizabeth I had died of smallpox in 1562, as she nearly did, who would have succeeded her ? Lady Katherine Grey or the Earl of Huntingdon (who ?) were considered, but no one person emerged as a likely successor. |
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I wonder if she would have stayed so faithful to the Catholic church if she had been raised at the court of Henry VIII & Catherine Parr. Certainly the queen made sure that E6's tutors were strong Protestants. If MQOS was there from the age of 5 or so, being raised in that atmosphere, she might have been less stringent about her Catholic faith. I believe that there is a great possibility that she would have been in a position to become a Protestant Mary I of England, undisputably legitimately Henry VIII's heir after his son. However, England would be in the same position as it was with Catholic Mary Tudor, the dowry of the queen....not sure if a widowed Mary Queen of Scots & England would be strong enough to rule alone as Elizabeth did. Perhaps she would have fallen under Darnley's spell after all...only no sneaky lords to blow him up for her when he became too much to bear! |
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Totally on a tangent, but did Margaret Douglas retain HER legitimacy after Margaret Tudor divorced Angus? Mayhap tis why no one really considered the Lennox lads? There's a granddaughter of Eleanor Brandon's, Elizabeth Stanley Hastings (hmmm....if she wasn;t already deceased I could smell Margaret Beaufort matchmaking LOL as her last hubby was a Stanley & turned on RIII), who was Countess of Huntingdon, but the time frame doesn't fit Elizabeth's early illness as she & her husband weren't even born yet (riffled thru the Tudor Place begats to find that). Wonder if these peeps are descended from Edward IVs Hastings? <rummages more> Hmmm OK....found him....William Hastings, 1st Baron Ashby-Zouche (what a silly title LOL no wonder he's merely referred to as Hastings in all the history books) who married a Catherine Neville in EIVs reign who HAD to be a Plantagenet rellie....tracing direct line....son Edward....AHA!  Grandson George, 1st Earl of Huntingdon....voila! Jeez the Elizabethans had to go back 100 yrs in the begats to find a Tudor cuz who hadn't been purged off?  Looks like George's son Francis, 2nd Earl of Huntingdon, died 1569, is the dude in question. These begats is just like a scavenger hunt ....no wonder FA finds em so amusing LOL Whole slew of Elizabethan nobility by rank HERE if anyone wants to look. Ooooo really good page HERE as well, breaks up the important peeps by Tudor reign. This is a treasure trove of Who's Who in Tudor England  |
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You couldn't find it because it somehow got into General instead of The Tudors board, but that's OK, begat & what-if away  MQOS was what, 4 or 5 when she was dispatched to France? It's entirely possible she could have been indoctrinated as an Edwardian Protestant half a lifetime later, & been a perfectly acceptable candidate for the English throne. Going strictly by primogeniture alone, with Margaret Tudor being Henry's elder sibling, she was 1st in line. However, Edward's little "device for the succession" skipping his sisters in favor of Jane Grey never went through Parliament for approval. Henry's DID, & got it. That meant it was part of the law of the land, despite shunting it to the Grey line rather than the Stuart line. Margaret Douglas was raised at Henry's court & while he seemed to have been fond of her as a child, he wasn't overly enamored of her once her hormones kicked in & she was confined to Syon House for a time for an unsuitable romance. He may have learned to dislike her & shuddered to think of her perhaps coming to his throne one day. I think in Henry's 1536 Act of Succession he was hopeful Edward would live long & perpetuate the male Tudor line, but just in case, he eliminated the Stuarts from it probably because he did not care to see what eventually did happen happen, a Scots king ruling England. Technically James VI/I's whole accession was totally illegal, since it was a violation of an Act of Parliament. Does anyone know if something was ever shoved through Parliament to correct that? If not, here's your chance at overthrowing the monarchy on a technicality ROFL |
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You know what, I just know I got the year wrong on Henry's succession act , he had like 3 of them by the time he was through fiddling with it  |
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I thought it would be interesting to plot out a timeline. Dec 1542, MQOS is born July 1543 Treaty of Greenwich, when MQOS, age 6 months, was betrothed to Prince Edward, age almost 6 years Dec 1543, the Scots blow off the treaty & renew their Auld Alliance with France April, 1544, Henry VIII orders Edward Seymour to invade Scotland & put all to the fire & sword, later termed the 'Rough Wooing' Jan 1547, H8 dies, is succeeded by 9-year old Edward VI August 1548, Mary, almost 6, is sent to France July 1553, Edward dies, almost 16 yrs old (10 years after the failed Treaty of Greenwich) Alternatively, if the Treaty of Greenwich had held, and MQOS had been sent to the English court to grow up with her future husband, she would have been only 3 when H8 died & her future husband was crowned king. Would she have been sent to Chelsea, to in the nursery, watched over by Katherine Parr? Moving even deeper with this supposition, she would have still needed a nursemaid after the untimely death of Katherine Parr. When Edward suffered through his horrifying final illness, his wife-to-be would have been only 10 years old. While he might have wanted to 'bequeath' his throne to his intended, she was too young to rule in any fashion, and would have been subject to a power-hungry noble like Northumberland anyway. It's possible he would have tried to marry Guildford to MQOS and make him king in that fashion - perhaps Jane Grey would have lived out her life in this "what-if" scenario. The real question, I think, is, given a choice between the legitimate, possibly Protestant MQOS, with her Tudor lineage and the Catholic Mary Tudor, thought by most of Europe to be the true heir, but by law in her own country, illegetimate, which queen would the English people support? |
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