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The Tudors : Mary Queen of Scots
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 Message 1 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLinda_J9  (Original Message)Sent: 1/27/2008 4:53 PM
I'm finally reading "Elizabeth and Mary: Cousins, Rivals, Queens" by Jane Dunn (I had to wait for it to come out in paperback). I'm about 3/4 of the way through it, and Ms. Dunn is speculating about Mary QoS's mental health. Her theory is that Mary's erratic behaviour, and some of her very poor decisions, might be explained by her having bipolar disorder (what we used to call manic-depression).
 
I've never come across this theory before -- has anyone else?
 
Dunn makes an interesting case for her theory. It's really got me thinking. Maybe I've been too critical of M QoS for all these years. Maybe she wasn't just a ninny . . . she was ill.
 
What do you think?
 
Linda


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 Message 14 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1Sent: 1/30/2008 4:40 AM
I agree with Mark about Robert and James, but wanted to also comment on Terrilee's post #4.
 
As Terrilee noted, MQOS grew up in the French court.  It had posh palaces, sophisticated manners as well as fashion, the arts and esteemed places of learning.  She had had her French relatives which coddled her and took care of her.  Her biggest decisions were what to wear and what delicacy to eat.  Then she goes to Scotland...dank castles, barbaric Lords, her finery in manners, dress and cuisine was out of place AND she ascribed to the "wrong" religion!  A shock to say the least.  She had no training what so ever in statecraft and besides, the Scottish court was quite different in how it functioned.
 
I don't think she ever matured at the French court (well, she never had to there) as the shock of the Scottish court was so great, she never could take it all in and get a real handle on it.
 
She would have made a good French courtisian, but she made a disaserous Queen.
 

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 Message 15 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameterrilee62Sent: 1/30/2008 1:21 PM
I must agree with MarkG, Robert, Earl of Gloucester, from all accounts would have made an excellent king, especially in contrast to Stephen!  One other thing that he had was loyalty to his half-sister, the Lady Matilda.  If only Moray had the same steadfast loyalty to Mary, she might have been a better queen!

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 Message 16 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1Sent: 1/30/2008 8:11 PM
Matilda and Mary are, in many ways, two peas in a pod.  But, while Mary can invoke sympathy because of her upbringing and lack of support, Matilda certainly wasn't lacking in those areas and I am not awear of anyone who ever felt sympathy for Matilda.

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 Message 17 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameboleynfanSent: 1/30/2008 10:37 PM
I think Timothy Dalton was the perfect Darnley in MQOS with Vanessa Redgrave

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 Message 18 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1Sent: 2/1/2008 6:40 PM
boleynfan, why did you think Dalton made such a good Darnley?
 

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 Message 19 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameboleynfanSent: 2/3/2008 7:01 AM
Dalton looked very much like Darnley.  Dalton was charming and dashing at the beginning.  Once married, he then became unbalanced and slimy.  He changed his demeanor so easily, from tough talker to snively weasel so effectively.  Much as the real Darnley apparently did.  The character was written well.

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 Message 20 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1Sent: 2/3/2008 5:21 PM
Darnley was sleezy and a drunkard and all before he was sent to Scotland to entice Mary.  They just cleaned him up and told him what he needed to do and if he succeeded then he could go back to doing whatever he liked...basically.  And he did.
 
Elizabeth sending Robert as a potential husband for Mary was a smokescreen.  The real intent was that Darnley would "sweep her off her feet".  Which is what happened.

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 Message 21 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLinda_J9Sent: 2/4/2008 7:53 PM
I distinctly recall somebody (I'm sorry, I don't remember who) who responded to my original message about MQOS's mental health, saying that they didn't buy her having manic phases because there's no record of her having the "standard" symptoms of the mania phase.
 
I'm not an expert on bipolar disorder by any means, but I believe that not everyone has the standard symptoms, which include inability to sleep, excessive spending, making grandiose plans, etc. etc. A member of my extended family has been diagnosed with this disorder, and I don't think he has any of those symptoms. He does, however, become quite boastful, his demeanour becomes arrogant, he gets argumentative, and he seems a little paranoid.
 
In her book, Jane Dunn makes the point that some of Mary's bad decisionmaking might be rooted in her being bipolar. For example, she speculates that Mary was in a manic phase when she kept insisting that she wanted to marry Darnley, even though many were trying to talk her out of it. Then, very shortly after the wedding, she may have progressed into a depressive state.
 
I'm not saying I agree with Ms. Dunn, but I do find the idea intriguing.
 
Linda
 

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 Message 22 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLegendaryLisette7Sent: 2/20/2008 11:15 AM
I find the idea intriguing too but no one else has suggested it that I know of. There are different types of this disorder so maybe she had a very mild one.

I do think that she may have just been very stubborn and determined which is why she insisted on marrying Darnley!

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 Message 23 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameDylandorSent: 2/20/2008 9:21 PM
In my opinion, although Mary was the rightful heir to the throne of Scotland, she was, in actual fact a coddled and sheltered French woman (due to her up-bringing at the French court) who had no real understanding of her Scottish heritage, politics or the austere court she had inherited.

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(1 recommendation so far) Message 24 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameElizabeth15332Sent: 4/6/2008 4:26 PM
Hi my name is Reggie, I think that Mary Queen of Scots was a very beautiful woman, and would of been best to stay in France, I think that Mary only moved to Scotland so she could rule Scotland, and Save Scotland, from her cousin, Queen Elizabeth I of England. I want to also know, who do you think was prettier Queen Elziabeth I, or Mary Queen of Scots, Mary Queen of Scots had lots of reports saying how beautiful she was, but Queen Elizabeth didn't just have reports saying how beauty like, "she has a very handsome face and figure" and "fine eyes"  but also she had many suitors, even when she was a disgraced princess, she also captivated Prince Philip of Spain, when she was the bastard sister, of her half sister, Queen Mary, but what do you think?

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 Message 25 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5Sent: 4/6/2008 7:25 PM
Mary Stuart returned to Scotland for two reasons 1. She had no role in France once her husband had died. 2. She was, after all, Queen of Scots, it was her duty to return there to govern. I think she should have returned earlier, if only for short periods, just to learn what kind of country she was ruler of.
It's impossible to say for sure who was the more physically attractive. Portraits were intended to flatter even the plainest of subjects and written descriptions are little better as you have to look at the motives of the writer.    

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 Message 26 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameElizabeth15332Sent: 4/7/2008 11:52 AM
true, but the reports written about Mary Queen of Scots physical beauty, is foreign, and they would obviously lie to her about her beauty and charms (unless they wanted to die, but actually Mary wouldn't of probably even executed them, that was more her cousin, Elizabeth) but Mary was a perfect description of the time, long golden red hair, big blue eyes, tall, willowy figure and creamy white skin, and even John Knox, who couldn't stand Mary said that she was beautiful or to be accurate "pretty faced" and Mary wasn't vain and not at all wise, so she wouldn't of thought about it, but it is still a possibility, but I go with the foreign reports, rather then reports, but who do you think is prettier Mary Queen of Scots or Elizabeth, also in the Wyatt rebellion, France aided the Wyatt rebellion, to put Princess Elizabeth on the English throne, so why did the King of France try to invade England when she was finally Queen of England? 

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 Message 27 of 28 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5Sent: 4/7/2008 9:24 PM
French support for Wyatt's Rebellion was very limited, certainly no arms or men were supplied. And I'm not aware of any French plans to invade England when Elizabeth was Queen. She inherited a war with France started by Philip and Mary in 1557, but both sides brought it to a swift ending by the spring of 1559.

Reply
 Message 28 of 28 in Discussion 
From: GreensleevesSent: 4/10/2008 11:42 PM
You may be confused by "the Auld Alliance", where Scotland was traditionally allied with France; however, this did not mean they were prepared to invade England on Mary's behalf, although I do recall France providing "pensions" & titles to several of the Scots nobility.  John Knox couldn't stand any female LOL especially Mary of Guise.

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