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The Civil War : Yankee Justice??
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Reply
 Message 1 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameCurliestJimbert  (Original Message)Sent: 11/18/2006 9:45 AM
Any comments?
Jimbert
 

Henry Wirz was killed in what General Robert E. Lee described as, "a judicial murder." While credible evidence existed at the time, and still exists today that he did everything in his power to care for the men in his charge, and the evidence linking him to the so called atrocities is flimsy at best, he alone was held to account for the shortcomings of the entire Confederacy in meeting the logistical challenge of caring for the prisoners in his charge. Convicted in a hasty and flagrantly unfair trial, he was executed in a brutally quick execution with no chance to have an appeal heard or to mount a credible defense.

Specification 1: That he shot a prisoner on July 8, 1864 with his own hand, the prisoner dying the following day. Despite having a pool of over 30,000 potential witnesses, the Court-Martial was unable to determine the name of the prisoner who was shot.

Specification 2: That Wirz maliciously stomped, kicked, and bruised a prisoner on September 20, 1864. Again despite having a pool of tens of thousands of potential witnesses, the Court-Martial was unable to determine the name of the prisoner who was assaulted.

Specification 3: That Wirz shot a prisoner with his own hand, on June 13, 1864. Again despite having a pool of tens of thousands of potential witnesses, the Court-Martial was unable to determine the name of the prisoner who was shot.

Specification 4: That Wirz shot a prisoner with his own hand on May 30, 1864. Again despite having a pool of tens of thousands of potential witnesses, the Court-Martial was unable to determine the name of the prisoner who was shot.

Specification 5: That Wirz placed a prisoner in stocks for punishment on August 20, 1864. Wirz was on sick leave during the month of August 1864, and was not even present at the time of the alleged event. Also the board was unable to determine the name of the prisoner. Furthermore, the use of stocks was an acceptable punishment in the U. S. Army at the time for commanders to employ against their own troops.

Specification 6: That Wirz caused a man to be placed in stocks, which resulted in his death on February 1, 1864. First, it is likely that there were no prisoners at Andersonville at this time, the first reported as having arrived on February 17, 1864. Second, Wirz was not even present at Andersonville until his arrival on April 12, 1864, nearly eight weeks after the alleged event.

Specification 7: That Wirz, on July 20, 1864, chained several prisoners together and made them carry around large iron balls fastened to their feet. The result was that one of the prisoners died. Again, none of the names of any of these several individuals were determined by the court.

Specification 8: That Wirz, on May 15, 1864, ordered a sentry to shoot a prisoner, which resulted in the prisoners death. This shooting was described as having occurred in broad daylight, in front of thousands of witnesses. Nevertheless, the board could not determine the name of the prisoner. Further, the prisoner shot had crossed the dead line, a line 18 feet from the prison walls that the men were forbidden to cross. The standing order was known to all prisoners, and everyone knew that crossing the line was subjecting oneself to being shot without warning. Dead lines were standard features in virtually all War Between the States prison camps, both in the North and South.

Specification 9: That Wirz, on July 1, 1864, ordered a sentry to shoot a prisoner, which resulted in the prisoner's death. Ditto, Specification 8.

Specification 10: That Wirz, on August 20, 1864, ordered a sentry to shoot a prisoner, which resulted in the prisoner's death. Ditto, Specification 8, but further, Wirz was not present at Andersonville on this date, as he was on sick leave.

Specification 11: That Wirz , on July 1, 1864, allowed bloodhounds to attack and wound a prisoner which resulted in his death six days later. Despite a pool of 30,000 potential witnesses, and the fact that the man survived for six days being cared for by his fellow prisoners, no name was determined by the board.

Specification 12: That Wirz, on July 27, 1864, ordered a sentry to shoot a prisoner, which resulted in the prisoner's death. Ditto, Specification 8.

Specification 13:That Wirz, on August 3, 1864, beat a prisoner with his pistol to the extent that the prisoner died the following day. Despite a pool of over 30,000 potential witnesses, the board could not determine the prisoners name. Further, Wirz would have had to have conducted this particularly difficult murder with only one hand, since he was physically incapable of raising his right hand high enough to strike anyone.



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Reply
 Message 3 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamesunnyboyreturnsSent: 11/18/2006 5:50 PM
Wirz was not murdered for war crimes.  Lincoln pardon everyone.  There was NO everyone except.  Now you know why we shot those other people. 
 
Sunny cleaning and reloading

Reply
 Message 4 of 17 in Discussion 
From: bowleggedSent: 11/18/2006 9:49 PM
Lincoln had nothing to do with it. By the time Wirz was put on trial, Lincoln was dead, and the Johnson administration was busy reaping the spoils of war.

Reply
 Message 5 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamesunnyboyreturnsSent: 11/21/2006 3:59 PM
Lincoln pardon everyone.  What part of that do you not understand.  There were no exception to his pardons.
 
 
 
sunny

Reply
 Message 6 of 17 in Discussion 
From: bowleggedSent: 11/21/2006 4:40 PM
I don't understand your point of view. I don't understand what you are referring to as Lincoln's pardon. Was there ever such an official order ever given, or are you trying to engage in some semantic exercise? Are you referring to Lincoln's quote "With malice towards none... "? Please enlighten me as to your interpretation of the Wirz trial and execution. Why, in your opinion, didn't Lincoln's "pardon" extend to Wirz?

Reply
 Message 7 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamesunnyboyreturnsSent: 11/27/2006 6:10 PM
Lincoln pardon everyone before he was put out of his missery.  That included Wirz.  There were to be no trails after the conflict.  Lincoln was the "commander in Chief" of All Union forces when this order was given.  Unless it was recended, and it was not, any trial for any action during this time of pardon would have been a crinimal act on part of the union.   But law is not important to emotional nit-wits.
 
 
 
sunny

Reply
 Message 8 of 17 in Discussion 
From: bowleggedSent: 11/28/2006 4:26 PM
"There were to be no trails after the conflict."

Surely you can produce evidence of such an order if it in fact exists.

Reply
 Message 9 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknametommytalldogSent: 11/29/2006 7:26 PM
The fact is had Lincoln not been murdered the south would have been treated far more fairly than they were under Johnson. Wirz, Davis, Lee & their like were all war criminals & should have all been hanged. See benevolent.

T-Dog

Reply
 Message 10 of 17 in Discussion 
From: bowleggedSent: 11/29/2006 8:17 PM
Hi Sunny and T-Dog,

Turns out Sunny is right - partly - about Lincoln's general anmesty policy. On December 8, 1863, Lincoln issued a "Declaration of Amnesty and Reconstruction."

Excerpting from:
http://ednet.rvc.cc.il.us/~PeterR/Papers/paper4.htm

Lincoln issued the Proclamation on the same day as his annual message to Congress outlining his plan for dealing with the rebellious South. Congress had indicated its conditional approval for the President to engage in such a measure by its act of July 17, 1862, stating the President had the ability "to extend to persons who may have participated in the existing Rebellion in any State or part thereof, pardon and amnesty, with such exceptions and at such time and on such conditions as he may deem expedient for the public welfare" (McCarthy 1966, 24). According to Lincoln's plan, if at least ten percent of the number of voters in the 1860 Presidential election in a rebellious state took an oath and constructed a republican government for the state, they could receive recognition and protection under the Guarantee Clause of Article IV, section 4 (Basler VII, 50, 55).

The issue of clemency was directly addressed in the Proclamation by its pronouncement that those involved in the rebellion (excluding those such as Confederate officers and agents) may receive a full pardon and restoration of rights by taking an oath to support the Constitution, the union, and all federal laws and presidential proclamations on the subject of slavery (VII, 54-55). Anticipating criticism, Lincoln contended that "nothing is attempted beyond what is amply justified by the Constitution" (VII, 50). He further argued the noncompulsory nature of the plan and the broad scope of executive power encompassed within the constitutional grant of authority to pardon reinforced the validity of the proposal. Lincoln noted:

True, the form of an oath is given, but no man is coerced to take it. The man
is only promised a pardon in case he voluntarily takes the oath. The
Constitution authorizes the Executive to grant or withhold the pardon at
his own absolute discretion; and this includes the power to grant on terms,
as is fully established by judicial and other authorities (VII, 50).

Lincoln further emphasized that avoiding rigidity in the process of reconstruction would be integral in his approach to the hornets' nest of complex constitutional and tactical concerns.

Saying that, on certain terms, certain classes will be pardoned, with rights
restored, it is not said that other classes, or other terms, will never be
included. Saying that reconstruction will be accepted if presented in a
specified way, it is not said it will never be accepted in any other
way (VII, 52).

Lincoln's flexibility in seeking the restoration of national authority, however, left a number of unanswered questions concerning the proper scope and administration of the provisions of the amnesty Proclamation. Ambiguity in the wording of the original December 8 Proclamation, prompted Lincoln to issue the "Proclamation About Amnesty" on March 26, 1864 (Basler VII, 269-70). In the second Proclamation, Lincoln specified that those individuals under civil or military custody or confinement were not covered under the provisions of the original plan (VII, 269). Additionally, Lincoln indicated commissioned federal and state-authorized civil and military officers could administer the oath and gave directions concerning transmittal of oath-related records (VII, 270).

==========

The reason that this amnesty did not apply to Wirz is sort of spelled out above, in that Lincoln excluded Confederate officers and agents, or persons who were already jailed. Wirz falls under the first category as he was not imprisoned until he was captured at the end of the war. He would still have been considered a Confederate officer at that time, though it seems to me that Lincoln left enough loopholes in the wording of his proclamation for it to be interpreted in a variety of ways. But then again, Lincoln was first and foremost, a lawyer and a politician.

Reply
 Message 11 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamesunnyboyreturnsSent: 12/1/2006 6:21 PM
In American history can anyone find where any cilivan population was required to take an oath to the US Constitution.  I do not believe that the Indians had to do that.
 
I still say that this proclaimation applied to Wrtz.  He did not refuse to take an oath. 
As you can plainly see shooting those other people is only out done by shooting lincoln. 
 
The main problem with this oath and it intended enslavement is the great con job the 14th Admin.  This oath restored equallity, so that the 14th (part 3) could take it away.
 
 
sunny
 

Reply
 Message 12 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknametommytalldogSent: 12/1/2006 9:44 PM
bow, Sunny always has a fraction of truth in his posts. He is the Oracle Immeritus of this site, recently out of retirement for all to enjoy.

T-Dog

Reply
 Message 13 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamesunnyboyreturnsSent: 12/2/2006 5:44 PM
T-dog
 
Post #12.  It that nasty.
 
 
 
sunny

Reply
 Message 14 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFlashman8Sent: 12/2/2006 9:35 PM
Highly complimentary, O anointed of T-Dog. Maybe he has a hidden agenda.

Reply
 Message 15 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamesunnyboyreturnsSent: 1/22/2007 5:06 PM
One Can not be party right.  There is no such thing.  You are either right or you are wrong.  Anything in the middle is worthless.
 
 
sunny

Reply
 Message 16 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMOREREPETESSent: 1/22/2007 6:42 PM
I THINK THAT IS THE MAIN PROBLEM WITH AMERICAN POLITICS SUNNY

Reply
 Message 17 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamesunnyboyreturnsSent: 1/26/2007 4:29 PM
Killing humans to support majicial words is stupid on all fronts.
 
 
sunny  

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