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PoliticalRants : Resonse to Ex's Disappearing thread on the USA's Magnanamous actions
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 Message 1 of 10 in Discussion 
From: Indigo  (Original Message)Sent: 3/27/2005 10:44 PM
I could swaer that I saw a "rant thread" posted here yesterday by Ex, I believe, & I felt compelled to respond to part of it--I do realize Ex, that you probably deleted the thread cause you probably changedyour mind about posting it & I'm not trying to single you out in any negative manner--I realize that we all probably say things in the heat of the moment that doesn't accurately portray us...But in short you told the World that The USA is tired of playing World Cop & tired of supporting every problem ridden poor country & tired of trying to resolve everybody elses problems at the expense to the average American---You told the world to go to look for aid in France or China (which gave me a fine chuckle--France?)--You basically told the Mexicans & to my suprise, the Canadians, to leave you(the USA) alone & stop leetching off of your wealth....You included the Canadians I believe because they didn't support Bush in his war in Iraq---As a matter of fact you had 2 lists--One List for countries that supported the war in Iraq (these countries would be financially rewarded & held in high standing by the American government) & another List for countries that didn't support the war in Iraq (these countries would be immediately cut off of all financial aid & trade from America)--Wow!! Personally I'm not against the war in Iraq but I am against its unbelievably bad planning  & the constanting lying & misinformation by the USA via Bush!
   So in response I say--
  Ex, you'd be shocked at how little Foreign Aid the American government actually gives & 95% of the aid given is only given because the USA is benefitting big time in other ways..
  --Do you really think that the poor & needy Americans would get any more help or assistence if Bush gave less Foreign Aid??
              I no longer trust or believe ANYTHING that the Bush government says or does & as far as I'm concerned Bush would greatly help the rest of the world if he "butted out" of the world arena all together & kept his precious bullshit Democracy & $$Capitalistic Corporations out of Canada & the rest of the Free World--
   I love the essence of the American Spirit & its heroic agenda of protecting Freedom for the Individual, -- but the nonstop barrage of Lies , Hypocrasy, & Self Righteous Statements & Actions by US Officials have become obscene & intolerable...Please, Keep your precious $$$ & leave us alone !! We actually don't need or want your help--the price is FAR TOO HIGH!
PS--Ex, this is not an attack on you--you know I love you & greatly respect you....


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Reply
 Message 2 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameEXSent: 3/28/2005 1:22 AM
Indigo,
I would first like to apologize for my outburst.
It's not that I really don't want to help people in need,
I DO 
it's that I am sincerely tired of the way it's done.
I'm tired of big business running our affairs,
including the political system itself.
I don't really have any hatred for anyone that didn't help us go
 into Iraq either
I'm just tired of all the lies, the half truths,this War without an end.
I'm tired of self-religious folks that think they know how everyone should live.
I'm tired of a media that slants one way or the other.......
Guess I'm just tired......
maybe I just should said that instead of insulting folks.....
Forgive me all
 
Love EX
 
 

Reply
 Message 3 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamewild_under_scoreSent: 3/28/2005 3:23 AM
I think something that's happening and has been for awhile is that some
of us normally rational people in the US are getting defensive. I'm
talking personally defensive here. It's the whole, "I can insult my
wife/husband but there is only so much I'll allow someone else to do". .
Should our government get a clue based on the fact that they have gotten
almost NO support from the rest of the world? Of course they should.
In very many ways the US is the bully and we probably should pick up our
mables and go home. But back to being defensive...is that what the rest
of the world really wants? They hate us when we stick our nose in but
expect us to take up the slack when THEY have a need.

Reply
 Message 4 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname©ShaSent: 3/28/2005 11:07 PM
Can't tell you how many posts I've deleted in the same manor..thank God for the 'delete' button sometimes is all I can say.
 
I've lived on both sides of the border and you're right Wild..I havn't seen it this polictially hot in a long time..at least where loyalties lie. It's like you said it's okay if you say it but if outsiders do..it's another story. I can relate to that we get fed up and strike out..fear..confusion does that. It's not a personal attack on America's people..but on her ruling government right now. Bush really has gone too too far..he's insulting everything and everyone. It's like he reallly is the bully in the schoolyard..and we all know how it turns out for them. Case in point (albeit a little one)..not long ago our papers were running a story that said "Is Bush snubbing Martin?" (our current Prime Minister). I recall thinking after I'd heard it yet again what the fuck..but it was not against any one person or group..other than policy and maybe the man himself. Who is watching this guy anyway..at home I mean..doesn't anyone tell him he's going to far or what? (yea wishful thinking I know).
 
"Friday Feb 25, 2005 ts
Rice may postpone trip after snub on missiles
WASHINGTON—The Bush administration may already be moving to punish Ottawa for its refusal to participate in a continental missile defence, according to a television news report last night.
Ottawa visit still on, official says Media batter PM on defence plan.."
 
If anyone wants the article they have to join (free)..but you get the gist of it..I can't tell you how many times we hear this word 'snub' up here whenever the Canadian gov doesn't agree with American policy.
 
I remember well when the Iraqi war started..it wasn't all cut and dry..there were many Canadians who sided with the Bush administration on this. Some of the radio show talk show hosts on an am show I listen to were hell bent on supporting him. I think much of this is coming from the media itself..this you against us..us against you kinda propaganda. I always supported the people who were sent to fight..just never the war and reason for it.
 
And that's where we need to stop and get a grip..these governments that are running both countries don't speak for me..at least not 80 % of the time they don't...and they haven't for a long long time now. All thes political posts are about just that..what they're getting away with...it's friggin outrageous. No wonder everyone is freaking out (in general)..this shit has gotten away from us big time. How are we supposed to feel when the people that are making decisions for us are so way out of control it's almost unfathomable any of it can be reversed. Who lives with the legacy..the kids...us...the rest of the planet. I don't know folks..I think we need to stick together here (not here at HofH I know everything is kosher..on the world front)..cause someday and maybe sooner than we think..we're gonna need one another.
 
I so agree with Indigo on  'I no longer trust or believe ANYTHING that the Bush government says or does," and  "I love the essence of the American Spirit & its heroic agenda of protecting Freedom for the Individual." Too the France comment was funny.
 
My sentiments exactly.
 
There is no one I'd rather be standing next to in a time of turmoil than an American..well and a Canadain too. What I really mean is you guys have heart..and you give a shit..and that's what really counts..what will prevail in the face of everything else. 
 
Sha
 
 
 
 
Mar. 2, 2005. 01:00 AM
language=JavaScript1.1 src="http://ads.thestar.com/js.ng/site=thestar&Section=news&page=index&spacedesc=windowad"> </SCRIPT> <NOSCRIPT> </NOSCRIPT>
Don't make same mistake



Rice may postpone trip after snub on missiles


March 1.

The old expression is still valid: those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would be happier if we didn't remember the anti-missile boondoggle of the past. But Canada's Liberal government has taken a page out of the past and won't make that mistake again.

Lest we forget, in 1958, then president Dwight D. Eisenhower wanted Canada to participate in his ill-fated anti-missile program called the Bomarc-Sage project. As is clear today, bringing down an intercontinental ballistic missile is a difficult assignment. Attempting to shoot down many of them would be nearly impossible. In the 1950s, the Bomarc had a range of only 125 miles and required ground control radar (Sage) to guide it to its target. It was a silly idea, doomed to failure.

In 1959, the effect of John Diefenbaker's "buying-in" to the American Bomarc scam cost Canada its vaunted Avro Arrow program.

Canada lost the Arrow and the Bomarc with its nuclear tip became a major political boondoggle when Diefenbaker's government decreed that no nuclear weapons would be allowed on Canadian soil.

With this kind of history, it's no wonder that the federal government is reticent to buy-in once again to an ill-conceived anti-missile scam.


Ken Clayton, Mississauga

http://www.wednesday-night.com/missile.asp


Reply
 Message 5 of 10 in Discussion 
From: IndigoSent: 3/29/2005 12:40 AM
The USA is in a very tough situation--Because they're the biggest kid on the block they're damned if they help & they're damned if they don't help--I don't envy their position at all---But like Sha says," I'd rather have you Yanks as neighbours then any other country--Thank God there's still enough sane & creative & compassionate Americans in the USA--cause if it was all Right Wing Christian Republicans in charge then the rest of the world should start preparing for the 21st Centuary Crusades , better known as the American Jihad from the Imam Bush...
PS--Ex--I love ya girl--no hard feelings right? I really do sympathaize with the American dilemma of who to help & who to not bother with...Keep up the Good Struggle

Reply
The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations  Message 6 of 10 in Discussion 
Sent: 3/29/2005 4:13 AM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.

Reply
 Message 7 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameEXSent: 3/29/2005 4:14 AM
 
Ooooo Indigo My Sweet,
Takes alot more than that to shake this old chicks tail feathers
And if I really get mad at ya.
I'll be sending my kids to your house to avoid the upcoming draft
 
Kisses & Love
EX
( thanx everyone that put their thought onto this thread...)
 
( spell check.ordering -spell check with my fries plz)

Reply
 Message 8 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname©ShaSent: 3/29/2005 3:16 PM
 
 
luvs u guys
 
spell check with my fries plz
hehehe

Reply
 Message 9 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MarcoSent: 3/29/2005 7:06 PM

Wow!  I didn't see the original post, but since working on foreign aid programs was my career for 20 years and is among my favorite things to talk about, I've gotta weigh in.  Ex- this isn't an attack on you; even though I didn't read the post it's pretty obvious what it said.

 

First, Indigo is absolutely right that the US spends a very small amount to help other countries.  Less than one percent of our budget goes to foreign aid and less than .1 percent of our GNP.  In terms of both percentage of budget and percentage of GNP the US is dead last among industrialized countries in how much we give.  Yes- even France gives more in terms of percentage of budget and percentage of GNP.

 

In terms of absolute dollars, give the US credit- we do give the most.  But for the ten years from 1993 - 2003, even in absolute terms, the Japanese gave more than we did and they still give nearly as much as we do even though their GDP is much, much smaller.

 

Indigo is also right (or very close) on the statement about 95 percent of foreign aid is benefitting the US- although he may be exactly correct if one looks at indirect benefits.  But out of every dollar spent on foreign aid, 85 cents goes directly into the pockets of Americans. 

 

It goes to pay the salaries of people like me, when I was doing that type of work.  We were mandated to fly on US-owned airlines so all the travel money went to US companies, and where possible we had to stay in US owned hotels. 

 

One example would be when I went to Darfur last fall on a consulting assignment- the US provided food, but the food was grown in the US, bought from farmers in the US, flown on US airplanes, all the logistics were US-based costs.  There was virtually nothing of taxpayers money that ended up outside the US.

 

Another specific example- and this is very typical of how US foreign aid is spent: a project I worked on in Thailand that was about a one million dollar/year project- only about $150,000 of each year's million actually left the US.  It paid my salary and others plus our benefits, plus a small profit for the company.  Of the three years I worked on the project, I went to Thailand about 15 times for 2-3 weeks each time, the rest of the time was doing research in the US, preparing for trips, writing reports, etc.  Then for the trips overseas I had to fly on US air carriers and was supposed to stay in US-owned hotels.  So even the travel, except for the small amounts spent on food went back to the US.  We did a lot of training- at no cost to the participants, made presentations to the Thai gov't to get them to understand and implement a program for HIV/AIDS, and gave some small contracts to Thai organizations so they could provide prevention and treatment services after being trained.  But the vast majority of the money, which came directly from the US foreign aid budget, stayed right here in the US.

 

Yet I don't think that's terrible.  I like to think that in doing the work I did, I was doing something good and accomplishing something to help the Thais deal with their HIV/AIDS issue. 

 

There was another thread on spending by the US on education and health of our own people.  Yes, that should be significantly more than it is.  But we wouldn't gain much, if anything by cutting foreign aid- if we totally eliminated foreign aid and transferred that funding in its entirety to say medicare, it would only result in an increase of about 5 percent in the medicare budget.

 

But where the money really goes is to the military- to the tune of $450 BILLION, as we're told by the gov't, but if costs to other agencies that are actually military costs, experts have put the actual cost at about $700 BILLION.  That's at least 100 times more money than is spent on foreign aid!  Further, of the foreign aid budget, which is about $4 billion, nearly half of that actually goes to foreign military expenses- money for Colombia to fight the drug war comes from the foreign aid budget; money for Israel and Egypt to the tune of close to $2 billion that goes directly to support their military comes from the foreign aid budget.  So we're actually spending only about $2 billion on true foreign aid- and (I hate to be repetitive, but) about 85 percent stays in the US.

 

I can understand the feeling that we should be helping those at home rather than spending all our money to help those in other countries.  But the simple fact is that we spend such a tiny portion of our tremendous resources to actually do that. 

 

Surveys consistently show that most Americans think that we spend about 20 percent of our budget on foreign aid.  The same surveys show that those people believe that's too much but that we should spend about 10 percent.  If we were to spend that 10 percent, our foreign aid would be $40 billion rather than the actual $4 billion.

 

Americans are generous people, most do want to help the poor of the world.  But there's such a misconception about how much we actually spend to help the poor countries.

 

Sorry for going on, but the Iraq thing also hits home.  IMO we were lied to for the reasons of the war, and I've been staunchly opposed since the beginning.  We see on TV tape after tape of Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice, and Bush saying that we had to go in because Hussien was a direct threat.  We see each of them talking about how the war would be over in a matter of months, that once Hussein was gone people would view us as liberators.  Anyone with knowledge of that part of the world knew that simply wasn't going to happen.  I saw a tape the other night of Rumsfeld saying the day before the war how he had "no doubt whatsoever" that as soon as the gov't was overthrown the rebuilding would begin and that oil revenue from Iraq would be used to pay for it- that there would be no additional cost to the US.  And here we are 2 years later paying not only with huge amounts of money, but with the lives of our young men and women.  I don't understand why there's no outrage over this!

 

Finally (if anyone's still reading), I totally agree with Sha and Indigo that I don't believe anything that this administration says.  It's the most secretive, deceitful administration possibly ever and says whatever it feels it needs to tell the American public to get regular Americans to buy into policies that actually hurt most Americans and benefit only the wealthy.

 

Marco

 


Reply
 Message 10 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameEXSent: 4/1/2005 11:46 PM
Marco,
I loved your explainations of the use.
I sincerely didn't realize all of that, especially the military budget!!
OMG!!!
What a fabulous job that must have been, seeing many cultures and people.
I am sincerely envious .
 
I took back my words in the orginal post,
 because I was first
so wrong.......but second because I wasn't informed.
 
EX
 

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