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Greetings, I have had this on my List for some time and still have not yet nailed it down. I have a few theories, but.... would anyone care to offer a distinction or defintion of Witchcraft (NOT Wicca) and Sorcery? What is it that differentiates them from one another? Blessings ~ Red |
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The difference lies within what you are doing...Witchcraft is mainly the using of spells to manipulate the energies, or magical force around you to gain a desired affect. Generally it is mainly related to earth or folk spells. I would say mainly sympathetic magic. Poppets, lucky rabbit feet, making of magical potions in a none alchemical way<love potions and suchlike>. It is not ceremonial magic with all the trappings and ritual, things you can do in your kitchen. Sorcery is a bit different, it is the conjuring and banishing of spirits or enities to do your will. This is any sort of raising of spirits. Also it isn't just limited to any system. If you want to raise the spirits of the forest to protect home and hearth you are practising sorcery, same with banishing unwanted troublesome spirits. Necromancy is also a form of sorcery. The main problem between distiguishing between the two in this day and age is mainly due to christian and prechristian beliefs that used witchcraft and sorcery synonmously<i hate spelling words>...Anyhow...This isn't really my thoughts on the subject, just mainly traditional views, and i tend to agree. |
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How about this definition? Sorcery: Learned, Uses Tools, Directed Outwards ... a ceremonial practice defined through orthodox religions by the use of angels, demons etc and focused more on Will(power) then natural consequences. Witchcraft: Inherited, Psychic, Directed Inwards ... a naturalistic practice defined by characterist application of anima to the the environment through use of elementals, spirits, etc which seeks the manifestation of Will as a natural consequence rather then through force or coersion of the spirit/astral realm. I am beginning to think however that the similarities are greater then the difference, since they both apply some of the same correspondances, such as sympathetic magic, astrology and natural properties. ~ Red |
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Sorcery is inherited, Wizardry, however, can be learned, but not anyone can learn it, and so it can be taken that it is "inherited". Tadrith |
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The only problem with those definitions is that sooner or later, people will come along who are terribly offended that their life path would be defined in a way that they feel to be absolutely wrong. I encountered similar in my early days of chatting when I didn't know much at all about anything. What I do, is try not to ever define beliefs. While I have friends who do walk a strict path of family tradition, they do still admit to the fact that it's different for others of <insert belief here>. For someone like myself, who is eclectic beyond repair...lol, I find myself cringing at the sentiment that one path is learned while another is inherited or that a witch wouldn't work with the Angels. Of course, there were differences historically. However, most of Pagan history concerning the direct nitty-gritty of practice is lost and so, much as many will refuse to admit it, we are all working with instinct and modern Pagan ideas on some level. While many modern sorcerors and witches would probably agree with the above statements, there will be just as many who say it is all wrong. Unfortunately and fortunately, all it takes now-a-days to "be something" is to say it. If I told you I was Grand Wizard Chancellor, Sorcellora of the Underground Necromantic School of the Elders (trembleth beforest me) then I wouldn't be required to prove it, unlike the old days when there was more structured education and progress for Pagan beliefs--I love my freedom and wouldn't give it up but nothing annoys like a fluffy bunny who thinks that attempting to challenge me in their "great power" would be a good idea. So basically, it comes down to definition being less important than is this person actually talented; is this person someone who will aid in carrying true Paganism (as one big umbrella) into the future. I am a scholar and I love defining things, I even feel a need to do so. I had to learn that defining beliefs, no matter how much research you do and how many of said belief you speak to, is still about as successful as chaining the tides. I'm not trying to step on any toes; just pitching in my two. |
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Well spoken Nox, and I even agree with much of your comments. However... its not about defining religions or beliefs, but concepts. I have found over the years there was a definite division in the concepts of sorcery and witchcraft, but this line was never completely explained to my satisfaction. To my way of thinking it is only a matter of developing the right skills and conditioning to recognize the potency of our existance and what we can do with it given the knowledge.... sorcery & witchcraft are two different tools towards the same goal. I'm not comparing the validity of either practice, only looking for what it is that makes them both work but operate so differently. Call it the curiousity of my nature....lol because I admit to wanting to know these things. ~ Red |
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| | From:  imbas1 | Sent: 2/23/2004 3:14 AM |
I believe either could be inherited and both can be learned. There are those that believe in the inherited witchcraft, that is, the only witch is the one born of a witch and so on. Of course, the followers of Wicca, may argue that they are too a witch after the required term of study. Then again, there are those who are just attracted to the belief and practice. So the terms, witchcraft, apply to all, in what they do, what they believe, what is asked. I believe the difference between witchcraft and sorcery, is in the spell. Witchcraft uses the forces in the natural way of the force. Uses the herbs or the spell in a way that is aligned with the way the element would normally be. Whereas sorcery is more the raising or controlling of otherworld elements in a way that forces them to do your will. |
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Yeah...I agree with you both. I was in a bit of a peckish mood yesterday...lol. I need to learn to stay away from my keyboard on days like that  . I mean, I believe everything that I said but I do understand the fact that sorcery and witcraft are both akin and seperate and that helping to delineate the lines can be helpful. |
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I'm in quite a peckish mood today, and so I'm probably mistaking the messages in some of the posts here but let me make this clear, Sorcery and Witchcraft are not alike. If you mean that they are akin, as in, they are both composed of words and that they are not christian, than I agree with you. I had a discussion with a friend and I came to realise that both can be learned, yes, but with Sorcery, if you do not possess the talent required to wield the magicks, then you cannot claim to be true sorcerer, as you could be severely harmed while working with such magicks. In other words, there is no connection to what you are actually doing. I would apply an analogy of copying someone's homework. A true sorcerer is the one who does the homework and understands it, while the "sorcerer" would just be the one copying it, he would understand nothing and come the test, would be in a big problem. I am sure some of you will disagree with this. Now I know that there are some people out there (and hopefully none on this site) who cannot accept Fate and find it "unfair" (or like words) that there is no equality in man. But there is a reason to why we are the way we are, and if we are not meant to be able to do certain things, there is a reason for it... Wow, I'm such a fatalist  No offense is meant in this post btw, I'm just in a peckish mood and I dont know when I should step away from the keyboard to save my life. The Hound |
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Once again, after having given the subject a bit of study, and looking into the history of witchcraft versus sorcery...I Must stand by my original comments. Many people seem to have taken the whole Dungeons and Dragons magic system and integrate it into their world perspective of magic...it being very concise and well thought for the most part. In dungeons and dragons, a sorceror is born with innate magical abilities...general within the various elemental spheres of influence. Now, as for historical sorcery..where it came from and what not was from sumeria and babylon. It was what they called black magic..working with demons and the like. Even to this day, various workers of magic in deep rural areas such as in the Appalacian Mountains are considered sorcerers if they have worked harmful magic...and some ethnic groups call someone a sorceror if they have killed using magic... It is a term used to denote a certian philosophy of magic...AND IS NOT A MAGICAL DISCIPLINE...though some people like to say they are this or that without really researching what they are calling themselves. Anyone can be a sorcerer by historical terms if they practice "black magic". As for witchcraft...this is kind of a hard finger to place on in this day and age as well, mainly for the fact are wiccans witches? They call themselves that...are considered by the rest of the world to be that...but are they...in ages past a witch was mainly a wise woman or man who used herbology and simple charms...which would seem to say that yeah wiccan are..not because of their claim to ancient wisdom...but rather from thier actions of using herbs and whatnot for the greater benifit of man... Now you could also take the fundamental christian view of that anyone who does magic is a witch...<mainly because they are decieved by the devil or willing participants> which I kinda find as a shallow way of looking at it. All in all from what I have studied...sorcery is black ceremonial magic...witchcraft is white nature magic...meaning that sorcery is using chants summoning incantations and what not to call up demons or the dead that has a negative quality to society...and witchcraft is mainly the using of simple magic and herbology to help the world around you...granted this is more of a cultural thing than a system...but pretty accurate considering the wieght of historical evidence and whatnot. |
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I firstly take offense to being called a "dungeon-dragon" person just because we are on disagreeing terms. But the difference between you and I is that I do not base my knowledge on what modern "sorcerers/witches/experts/skeptics/know-it-alls/dungeon-dragon players/etc" want you to think. No, I find my knowledge from memory from ages past. Something, I know, few people can do and accept. The reason they cannot accept it is because it does not conform to what these "sorcerers/witches/experts/skeptics/know-it-alls/dungeon-dragon players/etc" force feed us, which they convey as the "true" and "real" information. Its difficult to sort through bias of the people who write such articles, buts it even harder to know if what they write is based on actual truth, or just invented fiction that they base off of another person's bias. Tadhg Laoch |
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| | | From: Devine | Sent: 4/4/2004 4:12 AM |
Ok I think its both, inherited and learned. I can spot people whom have some 'something' about them. I call it my spidey sense or a witch knows a witch. Not that all the people who set me off are witches. Its just a feeling I get like a tingle. So I think that some people are born with traits that can be exercised and trained to be stronger. As some are born with stronger 'powers', some are less. I think Witchcraft can be learned(often is) and can be passed down from generation to generation, some being more adept than others. Some people who have no pre disposition to the craft can learn it and do it well. I believe it is manipulating ones environment using will and tools( wand chants runes herbs etc) Not sure what sorcery would fall under. I thought it is just another name or classification. Forgive my ignorance but I have never met a Sorceror so I cannot say. Just my two cents worth. Devine |
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Great thread folks! It's discussions such as this that bring out the diversity of thought that Betwixt has attracted over time and what keeps things interesting in my opinion. I consider myself a progressive or fluid thinker... which is a nice way of saying that I change my opinion as my knowledge or experiences flex and change. This is exactly what has happened over time with this line of thought (witchcraft vs. sorcery), for instance I started on my path as a ceremonialist with the ridgid exactness and precision often given or applied to the concept of sorcery (lets leave D&D out of it because I've never partaken of the game and have no need for the comparison) it was through the lens of these experiences that I discovered a glimpse at the hidden wonders of the universe. For me, my evolution led into druidism, shamanism, witchcraft and then into this state of open sacredness where I find I need labels less and less. The point of this meandering is that its in its essence only a different tool towards the manipulation of our use of the attributes we are born to. In this I agree with Devine, that it is a human inheritence to be able to access and manipulate our reality through 'gifts' or 'abilities' and I do agree that some are further along in accessing these traits. Neither Sorcery nor Witchcraft can be considered the superior... there is no good or bad (careful of those labels!) only intent and what you are most comfortable with. another  |
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