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Discussions : Is there a Santa Claus?
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 Message 1 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«  (Original Message)Sent: 12/2/2003 2:44 AM
 
This question has been asked the world round by children of all ages, one such as Virginia O'Hanlon who took her query to the New York Sun ... the answer is the now famous
 
I ask you this, all joking aside... and keeping in mind that we who lead spiritual or magical lives are at the very heart, making Belief ...
 
Is there a Santa Claus?


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Reply
 Message 2 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLeila137601Sent: 12/2/2003 9:18 AM
Yes, there is a Santa Claus and he is in disguise...in every person who enjoys giving for the simple pleasure of it; giving not just in gift-wrapped packages but of themself.
 
Leila
 
 

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 Message 3 of 15 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 12/3/2003 3:43 AM
I would say that santa does exist...however it is just a cover for his real name... If you move the "N' in santa 3 spaces to the 6th position of the word... you get satan...and everyone knows that 3 sixes is 666 which is another symbol of the devil.  Other proofs exist that satan IS santa...For one, another alias of santa is Old Saint Nick...Which correlates VERY close to Old nick..which is the devil.  Old nick also has a penchant for chimneys...as does santa...not enough?  Well look at his list of names of children of the world...The good boys and girls get "gifts"...which tempt them to love him...and bad boys and girls get coal!  COAL...another parrellel to the abode of satan!!!  Now look at his workers in the north pole<the north pole could be seen as a allegory for hades which is also a very cold place>  ELVES!!!  Just another name for imps of hell !!Still not enough? Anyhow...i don't particularly like the thought of santa...and he has much truer backgrounds than what i jsut made up...however, i dunno...never met the bloke..
 

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 Message 4 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMaryJaneVSent: 12/5/2003 3:23 AM
Leila,
 
I think you are right on...  Its the spirit of giving, and not just of material gifts, but of ones self. 
 
Meaning no offense Wanduring, but your reply sounded as if it came chapter and verse from a Jehovah's Witness, or Seventh Day Adventist handbook..  LOL.. 
 
I'm really just kidding...  

Reply
 Message 5 of 15 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 12/5/2003 3:54 AM
All I am saying is bewares those bearing gifts of goodwill for no seeming purpose...and of course, santa is the devil... Look at the meaning of christmas...It is supposed to celebrate the birth of christ...not to be a capitalist festival of debt encouraging to capture the hearts and minds of the people and to enslave them to the almighty dollar.  Why do we need a holiday to encourage us to go into debt? Most people ar ebarely hanging in as it is, YET society dictates that in order to be happy, you have to get lotsa presents on this day...rather silly.  As a youth growing up in tennesee.  My family never has celebrated Christmas as a time of giving of gifts.  When I was in elementary school, kids were discussing what they were getting for Christmas and they asked me what I expected...well i told them that my family focused on the birth of jesus rather than giving gifts.  Now word got around to the teachers who were jsut shocked...they thought i was just putting on a brave face cause we were poor.  Well one thing led to another, next thing we knew the community baptist church rolled out the charity wagon wanting to give us all sort of stuff to make our christmas REAL christmas since we were so poor.  My dad never could make them understand that we weren't poor, we had each other...and he made more money per year than most of the community put together. Kinda nice but unwarrented and a lesson in assuming things...Anyhow, as i grew older i became disgusted with Christmas for it's own sake... AT NO TIME OF THE YEAR are tempers more likely to break out, and people are jsut rude...All for worry over a silly holiday that society promotes.
  NOW that being said, good job all of you who see through the nonsense and go straight to the main point of the holiday.  Peace on earth and goodwill towards men.  I wish more in the world were like those treasures that do look to promote the good things of life without getting caught up in the nonsense.
  As for santa, supposedly he did exist, and you can read more about him here.  Anyhow peace on earth and good will towards men <and women >
 
 
p.s.< the devil is portrayed wearing a red suit...santa too wears a red suit...>

Reply
 Message 6 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamewabbushonSent: 12/5/2003 4:43 AM
Bah HumBug! I'll try to think of it as being altruistic.  It becomes a public display of giving.  oh, sigh, just bah humbug
~wabbus

Reply
 Message 7 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamewabbushonSent: 12/5/2003 4:47 AM
ONLY WAN COULD COME UP WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT! 
~WABBUS

Reply
 Message 8 of 15 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 12/6/2003 3:21 AM
<bows gracefully> You betcha

Reply
 Message 9 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«Sent: 12/8/2003 6:34 PM
Well now....
 
My original question stemmed from something I had been disciussing recently about archetypes and the power of belief. I have been watching this thread and find it curious how either unmoved, reticent or unwillingly an adult is to maintain or admit to the belief in this Santa Claus. What prompts me to say this...(and please lets put the issue of commercialism aside here)...is that as pagans you would admit to worshiping or revereing a god that has been reduced or dismissed to the halls of myth & folklore.... and yet it is your Belief that sustains this manifestation of your faith. How much different is the essence of this icon of good cheer, when millions of children truly believe with every fibre in the magic and yes... reality of Santa Claus. How can it be a lie when adults all over the world tell these young hearts that it is so.... how can that much belief be empty? And I ask you... if that belief is unfounded and to be considered false.... then just perhaps your own faith will take the next blow. Now, before you attempt to take the illusionary highroad of saying religious or spiritual belief is different... it is not so much so. Belief is a very powerful factor in the human psyche... be it gods, spirits, faery or.... Santa Claus. This brings my thoughts around to a conversation I had with Runreg & Highlander...we discussed the value of an Unsubstantiated Personal Belief ... a system that says that if YOU believe it to be so and it can not be disproven then it may be considered valid within the parameters of your belief. This is where I think Santa Claus exists for children and the few people that have guarded their belief against the weight of adulthood... and he exists in such a bright glow of belief that it translates in essence across time and cultural boundries.
 

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 Message 10 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname£ÔRÐ×ß4ÐG3R�?/nobr>Sent: 12/9/2003 4:36 AM
All I have to say is I will always like and appreciate Santa who or whatever he may be......my childhood would've been tragic without his visits!!

 

                                                                   


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 Message 11 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLeila137601Sent: 12/9/2003 7:50 AM

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The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations  Message 12 of 15 in Discussion 
Sent: 12/23/2003 12:10 AM
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 Message 13 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameÑÿmþhSent: 12/23/2003 12:21 AM
 
The modern Santa Claus has evolved from an assortment of sources. Some sources predating Christianity. There are also the stories of St. Nicholas, Washington Irving, Clement Moore, Thomas Nast, and the Coca-Cola Company all contributing to the entity we in the 21ST Century lovingly refer to Santa Claus.
 
The name "Santa Claus" is derived by a bastardized English term mimicking the Dutch "Sinter Klaas," their term for Saint Nicholas. Contrary to popular opinion Santa Claus took his name from the Catholic Saint Nicholas and not Satan or the devilish  designation.

Saint Nicholas is patron of mariners, merchants, bakers, travelers, children, etc. His representations in art are as various as his alleged miracles. In Germany, Switzerland, and the Netherlands, they have the custom of making him the secret purveyor of gifts to children on 6 December, the day on which the Church celebrates his feast; in the United States and some other countries St. Nicholas has become identified with Santa Claus who distributes gifts to children on Christmas eve.
 
Because of the gift-giving legends associated with Nicholas, it was held (especially in Belgium and Holland) that on the Eve the Feast of Nicholas, the bishop himself would come from heaven and visit children in their homes, giving gifts to those who had been good. Nicholas, decked out in full ecclesiastical garb (bishop's vestments, with miter and crozier), would arrive on a flying gray horse (or white donkey, depending on the custom). In some variations of the legend, he was accompanied by Black Peter, an elf whose job was to punish children who had been bad.
 
It is held by some scholars that the legends of Nicholas as gift-giver drew in part from pagan, preChristian sources. For example, the Teutonic god of the air, Odin, would ride through the air on a gray horse (named Sleipnir) each Autumn - so did Nicholas; Odin had a long white beard - so did Nicholas; a sheaf of grain was left in the field for Odin's horse - children left a wisp of straw in their shoes for Nicholas. Some claim that attributes of the Germanic god Thor, the god of thunder, were transferred to Nicholas. Thor was supposedly elderly and heavy with a long white beard; he road through the air in a chariot drawn by two white goats (called Cracker and Gnasher); he dressed in red; his palace was in the "northland;" he was friendly and cheerful; he would come down the chimney into his element, the fire.
 
After the Reformations of the sixteenth century the Feast of St. Nicholas was abolished in many countries. Throughout northern Germany, for example, the Protestants encouraged veneration of the Christkindl (Christ-child) instead, who, it was said, brought gifts to children on Christmas Eve. As an example of this, a Protestant Pastor of the seventeenth century complains about parents who put presents in their children's beds, telling them that St. Nicholas has brought them. This is a bad custom, he says, "because it points children to the saint, while yet we know that not St. Nicholas but the holy Christ Child gives us all good things for body and soul, and He alone it is whom we ought to call upon." Despite this new emphasis, the Nicholas legends prevailed in many places, especially among the Dutch.
 
Author Washington Irving (1789-1853), most famous for "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" and "Rip Van Winkle," is important for the information he gives us on the Dutch version of Sinter Klaas in the early nineteenth century. Washington's 1809 work "The History of New York (also called the "Knickerbocker History") was a satire on the transplanted customs of the Dutch of New York city. The "History" contained several references to the legend of St. Nicholas as observed by the Dutch. The St. Nicholas described by Irving was an old man in dark robes that arrived on a flying horse on the Eve of St. Nicholas to give gifts to children.
 
In his Folklore on the American Land, Duncan Emrich gives us  the next  American evolution of Santa Claus. It is a little know poem, "The Children's Friend," first published in 1821. The poem went beyond what Irving had written, mentioning for the first time a flying sleigh and a reindeer.
 
The person most responsible for shaping  of Santa Claus is Dr. Clement Clark Moore. He wrote a simple poem for his children in 1822 entitled, "A Visit from St. Nicholas," that begins with the now famous words,
 
Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house,
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse.
The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,
In the hope that St. Nicholas soon would be there.
 
Illustrator Thomas Nast, that gave us the image of Santa Claus.

Finally commercialism at it's best delved it's hands into " jolly old Saint Nic". Coca-Cola also contributed to the modern Santa Claus. Beginning in 1931 and for 35 years, Coke ran advertisements drawn by Haddon Sundblom that featured a people-size Santa drinking Coke. These ads contributed much to the modern image of Santa Claus.
 
Now beyond the history lesson in answer to the question "Do you believe in Santa Claus?" YES Virginia I DO!  The entity that has evolved over time however Westernized and commercialized has still retained the doctrine of inspiring hope, generosity, and laughter in the hearts and minds of all who at one time or another have BELIEVED!
 
 Nymph

Reply
 Message 14 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«Sent: 12/23/2003 1:57 AM
 OUTSTANDING!!!.... Gotta love this post
 

 

Reply
 Message 15 of 15 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 1/19/2004 5:26 AM

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