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| | (Original Message) | Sent: 1/14/2004 11:46 AM |
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| | From:  imbas1 | Sent: 1/14/2004 11:47 AM |
If, OBE (out of body experience) and SP (sleep paralysis) is so closely related to lucid dreaming, how does one really know whether they are having an OBE in another dimension (as has been discussed in the past) or merely, lucid dreaming in a fantasy world created by the individuals imagination? According to these and other articles I've read about lucid dreaming, one basically takes control of the dream. Ok, so say, I decide to attempt an OBE with the desire to visit another dimension or see elves and fairy folk, angels or other fantastic things of this nature, and, convienently, I do, and they look like whatever my brain makes them to be from all the images and discriptions recorded that I've seen. I wake up thinking I've had an OBE and in reality I've just had a particularly imaginative episode of lucid dreaming. Discussion? |
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Okay... Are we asking "how can you tell one from the other and whats the indication (or recipe ) of success?" or is the question a matter of proof that OBE (astral travel) exists and can be initiated at will instead of experiencing a dream? One of the indications off OBE, I think might be the potential to verify something at a distance. Say for instance you travel to your friends house that is physically 2000 miles away and you were able to report knowledge you had no way of knowing... perhaps something as mundane as to what was happening or where an object was located. Whereas this information would not be available to your dreaming conscoius. Or perhaps, people who are proficient at both OBE and Lucid Dreaming would be able to set up signals or sign posts to indicate which state they were actually in... is that possible? or would it again come down to 'what the mind perceives'? In order to aid in the discussion.... |
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| | | From: imbas1 | Sent: 1/14/2004 8:46 PM |
Well, I can well believe the OBE exists, especially in the ability of seeing something far away though I suppose it could just as easily be argued that this experience could be one of ESP or some sort of scrying that occurs while in this meditational state. In fact, I just read somewhere that some hospital operating rooms have taped odd items above the lights and beams to see if anyone reporting an OBE during a NDE or operation can remember these hidden objects. But what of supposeably other dimensional OBE travels. Since there is nothing that can be verified or proven, what is the criteria to assess that it is an OBE and not just a fanciful dream, lucid or otherwise? Dimensional travel that includes legendary beings, would seem to be most suspect. |
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I would have to agree with you Imbas about not being able to easily identify astral travel into another dimention...there is jsut no way to prove it other than saying, "i jsut know". Of course, you could adhere to the belief that when you dream you are entering another dimention, there is some evidence that points towards the mind being extradimentional from the typical 3 dimentional world we interact in<4 dimnetional if you adhere to the belief that time is the fourth dimention>. I forget the exact reference, i suppose it is from the book "hyperspace" or the book quantom reality...can't remeber...anyhow...I am a lucid dreamer, but i don't astral travel in anyway i would say "yes that was a projection", except for jsut a few examples(three to be precise). Red is totally accurate in what she said about knowing if you projected in this dimension from things you can relate that happened or aware of in the present. I know as a lucid dreamer, that my dreams have the taste of reality to them, even while being strange to the extreme. I wake up with phantom pains from the travails of my nightly dreaming...anyhow...more to the point, lucid dreaming and astral projection from what i have read are not exactly related...though some have put forth views that it is easier to project form a lucid dream state...which I personally think may be you playing mind games with yourself..perhaps deludeing yourself as imbas said earlier. Some of the tailtale signs of projecting are seeing your inert body lieing beneath you as you float above it and a feelingof falling as you fall back into your body. Which I have expeirenced before, and is nothing like lucid dreaming at all. I have really rambled here..so i think I shall jsut trail off into ellipses.......  |
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| | | From: Devine | Sent: 1/16/2004 5:12 AM |
I personally have not had an OBE neither sleeping nor during an operation. I would be too frightened, that I would not be able to get back, to try during meditation. I have had vivid dreams(lucid dreams) that seemed very real. I also awoke with phantom pains that I could not rationalize as simply muscle spasms. Plus I have awoke with 'feelings' that were so intense. Proof is in the beholder. There will always be someone to argue both sides. I read once that the only things you can be sure of(or believe in) are things you know to be fact. Things that you have actually experienced or had proof of.(proof being facts I suppose). Who really knows? Lately I have been dreaming of my deceased father. Some seemed to be containing a message some seem just to be my mind projecting a familiar image into thoughts or suggestions I have had. One spot seemed remarkable to me because I touched his face and commented "Oh your cheeks are so warm" I awoke with that being so important to me. Well perhaps I crossed dimention to Summerland and visited with him there, and this was his way to tell me he is fine(warm). Just my two cents that rambled on lol Devine |
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Well... I've been studying and thinking about this question. It seem that Imbas has a valid point, especially where astral travel is preceived through mental projection... it is only the mind that travels... much like dreaming. And unless you can create some sign-posts to identify one from the other you will simply have to decide for yourself which is which and if dreaming or mental projection has more validity then the other. Consider this though... in mental projection the individual does not have any conscious awareness of the physical self and therefore lies in a trance state.... the dreamer, however is not physically aware (for the most part) but does have physical reactions to the dream state. Our bodies may induce a mild paralysis, but we will still tense our muscles,change our breathing pattern or experience heart palipations all in response to the dreaming mind. Now where an OBE is considered most reports state that there is the physical sensation of parting the body and heightened sense of awareness that seperation has occurred. But like mental projection this occurs in a still , trance state that has reduced both breathing and heart-rate.... which in turn does not correlate to the dreaming experience. I have given myself over to studying these issues as part of my learning this year and have decided to keep careful records and observations, in order to track the ideas presented in this discussion. |
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