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Discussions : Biblical question ...
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 Message 1 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«  (Original Message)Sent: 1/25/2004 6:53 PM
Now, please keep in mind that as far as the bible is concerned and general christian knowledge goes, I am a write off... lol... However, I know there are some of you that may be able to shed some light on this question of mine.
 
Now as I understand it there is an old testament and a new.... and these two halves of the book deal with pre-christ and then what the faith became after the advent of Jesus. I have tried to read the bible but have simply not been able to sustain the interest to see it through... however one thing confuses me. The division between old testament and new seems so great that it appears that they are talking about 2 different religions and gods...The god of the old testament is this blood-thirsty, jealous and vengeful deity that approves of the destruction of unbelieving nations and demands the sacrifice of all his followers hold dear (eg. first born son) .... and then... Along comes Jesus and suddenly this scary religion is converted to a loving, anti-violent forgiving religion that sees the sacrifice of god's son to be the ultimate gift..... Then the religion that will not condone idoltry or and other deity places the christ in the catergory of godhood. I sooo don't get it.
 
Please don't think that I am bashing christianty, I am simply curious. I grew up without christianity for the most part and what I have learned I have learned out of curiousity... not as part of my upbringing or social education. And my observation  as stated above is indeed one of those curiousities... its something I don't understand. I simply fail to see how the 2 books can be the same religion or 1 stem from the other, there seems to be too many contradictions. Can anyone help shed some light on this?
 
Red


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 Message 2 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameWisdomsloveSent: 1/26/2004 3:00 AM
Can you explain the 70's? Jesus was a hippy, and was the leader of the hippy movement during his own era. I believe Jesus was real and I have taken to heart many of his ideas and teachings, therefore I guess I might be technically a christian, albeit one who doesn't care much for the Jewish bible or the Jewish take and authority on the Great Spirit. As far as the Jewish and Christian One God goes, yes he is indeed real and is the only true god in their realities, but not in mine. My reality is beginning to expand into infinity where all things are eventually, and where all things can be true in their own perspective dimension and plane of existance.

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 Message 3 of 10 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 1/27/2004 2:05 AM
This actually has caused some great debates in it's time.  Most of it is generally caused by various groups promoting thier own dogma rather than haveing a open mind about it.  It is pretty simple to me.  In the holy trinity, you have the father, son, and holy ghost<spirit>.  Each are seperate enities. Yet they bound together in singleness of purpose. The reason that the old testament is so blood thirsty is on account of the father being a vengeful god.  He is God, the one and only god..all other gods are jsut a facet of.  Now He laid down his law of do this go to paradise, do that burn in hell forever and ever.  There was no leeway...if you sinned you were gonna burn in hell.  This was due to the fall of man...when we stole knowledge of good and evil<eve and adam eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil> and lost our innocence.  I tend to think that if i was to believe the creation story of the bible, that this is where we gain rational thought. Once this knowledge was imposed within us, there was no taking it away without undoing his creation, and for god to say he made a mistake...some theorize that this would cause him to cease to be and everything within creation as well. <dunno if i agree with that> Therefore, knowing good and evil, we should be able to live a perfect life outside of innosense and be ableto do the will of god.  However, people being people, we do whatever the hell we want...which, god said, do this and I will smite the bloody pants off you.  Which he did, quite often. I also tend to think that the whole basis of the old testament story is god trying to rectify things in a highhanded manner until finally the son <jesus> came up with a plan. Anyhow, when jesus was born, he did everything god asked, knowing full well who he was and what his purpose was, to save mankind from hell.  He was something of a softy, feeling empathy for them burning for slight sins, so in order to claim mankind as his own, he died ona cross...and the law of love instilled.  Redemption was now possible.  It really makes alot of sense once you read the whole thing in perspective without closing your mind to possibilities. 
  Alot of this is my own ideas and thoughts on the matter.  And one ofthe reasons i am not what you would call a christian.  If anything, i tend to agree with God in the beginning...If you know it's wrong...DON'T BLOODY DO IT! If you do, you deserve what you get.  Alot of the contradictions comes from people not looking at the thing as a whole.  And reading more into things than are really there.
  A pet theory of some is that during the war between god and satan for heaven, that there were those angels that sat on the fence not picking sides, and that is who we are...the ones who didn't chose<though some elitists say"no no, we were the ones who fought for god, and therefore were given a greater chance to glorify god on earth...blah blah blah..silly notion if you ask me...and royally screwed ourselves if it is true>...a interesting idea...but no real evidence in scripture for it being true...and is jsut another grasp at explaining where we came from by taking the easy route.
  I tend to think that if God is how the old testament depicts...screw him...Is kinda like a pechulant child screaming"love me!" then when things aren't working his way squashing them.  Without really understanding how his creation works, not being a integral part of it.  Which is why I think jesus said"there's a better way" and got born as a human, granted a human who knew he was divine...For example, take the resurrection story...dying wasn't such a big deal for jesus cause he knew he was gonna be resurrected...so why is it seen as such a great sacrifice?  I mean, if i had a dollar, and my daddy said "if you give that dollar away to the poor, I'll give you 100 dollars".  Kinda defeats the purpose no? Just a little problem i have with christian dogma...anyhow....
 
 

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 Message 4 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«Sent: 1/27/2004 2:50 AM
Hmmm... interesting replies. How is it though that modern christian thinking as portrayed on all these Sunday morning programs can shout the words 'love' and 'forgiveness' and the bible 'as the word' ... but they don't really discuss the old god... I hear how Jesus is god and it confuses the heck out of me.... has the god of the old testament been supplanted by the son? And how does the no idol thing work when I see plastic saints and Jesus(s) everywhere.... a very confusing religion to one on the outside looking in. I can not dismiss the religion as a whole because of this gordion knot of non-sense that I do not understand because I know there are good people out there that believe and live there lives according to the goodness they find in the christian faith. How do they not ask questions? is it really a religion of Blind Faith that the inconsistancies and outright contradictions are best left unmentioned?
 
 

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 Message 5 of 10 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 1/27/2004 3:04 AM
It really boils down to the problem with organized religion.  In most organized religions, a open mind is seen as a liability. And to question God is to risk your rewards in the after life.  All major problems in ANY religion stems from this.  And in christianity, the closed mindedness became traditional, because of if you did in fact question things, you got yourself killed for heresy in rather uninviting ways.  The bible is rather plain...you really have to read it first without any of these dogmas floating around in your head...to get anything even slightly remotely thatmakes sense...and that means also without a debunking mind as well..anyhow...i hate religions...and their stupid dogmas.

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 Message 6 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameimbas1Sent: 1/27/2004 3:18 AM
Red, the basic simple answer to your question, goes something like this. The old testament, is the origional bible, the rules and oral passed down history of the Jewish faith. Most of the stories are probably written to teach a particular view, rather than be 100% factual.
 
It's rather hardcore. Life was hard then.
 
As the cities grew and the Romans conquered, life changed. Young people weren't buying it. Jewish rule was very demanding. Pay alot, pray a lot, Think Amish and NYC, only a few miles from each other.
 
Pagan religions are everywhere now, (Jesus time period) There's Mithras, and Roman, a few Greek, Some Egyptian, it gets hard to keep a good Jewish boy down on the sheep farm.
 
Someone named Jesus, who is brought up Jewish and certainly knows of the stories of the coming king, John the Baptist, all the current prophecy stuff (which is all the rage then), who is evidently, fairly Charismatic, gets tired of carpendering around and comes up with a new plan. All we need is Love...ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. It's all good man, just be nice to everyone, follow me, we'll all be cool and go to heaven. This is a radical thing. A god that cares? Unfreakin heard of. Sells like wildfire. Also gets him killed. Can't stop it though, Novel idea, good promotion, a lot of people jump on this band wagon cause, hey, you don't have to be rich to be blessed, meek inherits the earth, blah blah, unlike the Jews, unlike the pagans. This sells, especially in Rome, and the bigger cities. So eventually, decades later, people write down these new stories based on Jesus's word, supposeably, cause you need a martyr to really spark a new religion. Jesus said this and Jesus meant that. Remember, this was written down long long long time after Jesus lived and died. Then around 200 ad, all the current mob bosses, eh, I mean bishops, decide they need to organize this in order to create order (profits). They decide which ones stay and which ones go. They use the old testament as the historical references leading up to Jesus, They take all the stories going round and they create a nice orderly flow. Anything that doesn't fit, is banned. The new bible is the new testament. From that point on it's under control, and with the help of a few converted kings, all ready to conquer with. The Jews don't recognize the new testament. The Christians only use it when they need to prove a point that isn't covered by the new testament. Thus, a book that covers every single possible direction that one king or ruler may want to take. Brilliant! Today we kill, tomorrow we forgive. Cause God and Jesus said it was OK.
 
There, now say 13 hail marys and be at peace child, thou shalt be forgiven...

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 Message 7 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameimbas1Sent: 1/27/2004 3:24 AM
In response to your other question. Hell Yes! Most people do not question, do not want to question, and do not want to think about it! Cause there's that chance if they do, they won't go to heaven (preacher told em so, yes he did). Most people want to do whatever they do and still go to heaven, if that means go to church on Sunday, throw 5, or 10 or whatever in the basket, then that's cool. Most people are sheep looking for a shepherd. It doesn't really matter much to the sheep who the shepherd is, as long as they get taken care of. And most sheep are taken care of....right up to the butchering.

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 Message 8 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameÑÿmþhSent: 1/27/2004 3:48 AM
It is my hypothesis that the Old Testament and the New Testament are indeed very different thought philosophies and leads me to believe that as such they should be considered different religions separate of one another. (Please Read Jesus a Pagan for the biblical references as to why I feel my theory is sound.)

Here is the historical reason why I believe the Old Testament and the New Testament to be different religions.
 
Emperor Constantine was paranoid about unity. He came up in a time when the Roman Empire had four Caesars who warred amongst one another. When Constantine finally was crowned undisputed emperor, he wanted unity at any cost. Constantine is known as the first Christian emperor.

However Sol Invictus was his main deity until the last of his life. For most of his life Christianity was a political tactic, a method to control rather then a religion. He was the first noted person who shaped religion to help consolidate governmental power. He was aware that this religion was growing and wasn't going away so instead of fighting it like his predecessors he co-opted it. He controlled the church for his own purposes and shaped theology for his own political expediency. There are many things that people today think are divinely inspired were actually Constantine's political edicts enforced by the sword.

There was absolutely NO unanimous agreement in the Christian church that Jesus was to be worshipped on a basis equal to God. There is evidence that Jesus himself would not be happy with this idea. But in 324 AD the issue came to a head with bishop Arius, the presbyter of Alexanderia who was preaching that Jesus "the Son" had been created, begotten by God "the Father" and therefore was not quite as Devine. Others disagreed with this and riots ensued all over the empire about this and many other theological issues. The doctrine spread quickly and with it more riots and bloodshed.
Constantine called the issue insignificant and was surprised when the feuding did not stop with his directive. That's when the Nicean Conference was called.

The Nicean Conference is considered to be divinely orchestrated gathering of holy men guided by the Holy Spirit, when in truth it was Constantine's way of settling their theological disputes by point of sword.

When the bishops assembled and started arguing during the conference, Constantine had had enough. He was still an unbaptized pagan but he stepped in and declared that Jesus and God were "consubstantial" and of one "substance with the Father" If anyone at the conference did not concede to this ideology and sign the declaration attesting that this was the word of God, wouldn't leave alive.  Only two bishops did not sign and they were excommunicated and their writings ordered to be burned.

So the fundamental centerpiece in the Christian Religion the Trinity was legislated by point of sword in an attempt to restore civil order. This is we get the idea of the three in one. For nowhere in the old testament does it foretell of the Son of God…but rather the Prophesies I have noticed talk about a new Israel and lead by the son of the Highest being given the throne of his father David�? Not God.

However on a sidebar: NO faith has a monopoly on God any more than the colour red has a more favoured position in the spectrum of the light from the sun. The timeless command to love others as you love yourself to treat others as you would have them treat you is something that even our limited human minds can still grasp, understand and practice. The rest is just commentary.
 

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 Message 9 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLeila137601Sent: 1/27/2004 8:32 AM
I was just reading through this thread and thought maybe I'd add my .002 to the mix... I was raised in the Pentecostal church and with a Mennonite background and somewhere along the line became what I term a "happy heretic" for the questions I loved to ask. I am not much into labels but I suppose I am some sort of quirky Christo-Pagan! I prefer mystic though...  (By the way, heretic comes from a latin word loosely translated as "one who questions".)
 
Anyhoo, my take on your initial question, Red, is a simple one.  There is a scripture in Deuteronomy (old Testament) which says that all the other commandments are wrapped up in this one which stated "love the lord your God and your neighbour as yourself and so fulfill the law". (Leila paraphrase version)  God/Divinity/the Supreme Being is usually perceived as Infinite and beyond knowing and we humans as finite and limited in our scope of understanding. I tend to be of the opinion God tried to convey this simple message found in Deuteronomy but alas, human nature got in the way and added 1001 ammendments and conditions! Perhaps Jesus (whether you see him as god or man or both) was God's way of saying re-stating that message and he was killed for it.  Killed by a committee of religion and politics--gads, what an evil blend those two have proved to be over history! Whether one believes in the resurrection or not, Jesus' message lives on, to love the Creator and his creation (including ourselves) is to live life to the fullest.
 
Leila (The Questioner)

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 Message 10 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname£ÔRÐ×ß4ÐG3R�?/nobr>Sent: 3/24/2004 5:18 AM
The 'Old Testament' is the Torah of Judaism and the 'New Testament' is a patchwork piece of contrived mythology that contains quasi-historical accounts and outright thefts of pagan ideas in it. Really to try to package these two books together is a giant stretch lol. But with the fanatic hucksters of  Judeo-xianity there never has been any reason to present anything that makes logical sense.
 
                                                                         -L.B.

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