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| | | From: Hadit358 (Original Message) | Sent: 9/28/2004 4:13 AM |
Wanduring and I got into a discussion about Time tonight which I thought was pretty interesting. I've attatched the conversation on it if you wish to read our arguments and come to conclustions of your own, but I would really like your raw opnions on the topic.
In the end, we came to the core of the discussion (breaking away after that on yet another tangent) to two points of view; Time is the marking of points within a sequence of events, or Time is the sequence itself. Lemme know what you all think so I can argue about ti some more :p
-Me- |
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| doh, forgot to attach the conversation, so here it is. |
| | Time.doc |
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some people may have problems loading it, sooooo....
Wanduring : were i to know beyond all doubt
Wanduring : that life was a wasteof time
Wanduring : it would be end game
Hadit358 : what is Time? its importance is irrelevant
Hadit358 : how can u waste something insubstantial?
Wanduring : is it though?
Wanduring : time is a very substantial thing on the personal level
Wanduring : and on a grander level
Wanduring : the fourth dimension
Wanduring : or at least another dimension
Hadit358 : I'll disagree with that till the day I die personally
Wanduring : of how we perceive the world aroundus
Wanduring : is like argueing that up down north south east west have no meaning
Wanduring : yet
Wanduring : it is required for being ambulatory
Wanduring : in the survival sense very important
Hadit358 : it is required only as a basis of a person's perceptions
Hadit358 : like laungage, it is disposable
Wanduring : no it isn't
Wanduring : if your body quit marking time
Wanduring : you would stiffen up and die
Hadit358 : heh heh no way
Wanduring : seriosuly
Hadit358 : your heart would still beat
Wanduring : your body has an internal clock
Hadit358 : your blood would still flow
Wanduring : that allows you to live
Wanduring : tells you body "now it is time for this"
Wanduring : "now stop doingthat"
Hadit358 : perhaps we percive it as a clock only because we're placeing that idea of Time unto it
Wanduring : whatis time
Wanduring : define it
Hadit358 : the perception of entopic and enthalpic decay
Hadit358 : our body could say take a pee and know that the bladder no longer needs to be tensed for it is drained, thus it quits the action
Hadit358 : or that our heart knows that in order to keep the blood flowing, it must flow in a rythmic pattern depending upon the stress being placed upon the body
Wanduring : can that be reversed so it didn'thappen?
Hadit358 : it doesn't have to be because of a perception of time, only a perception of what needs and does not need to be done at the moment
Wanduring : time exists
Wanduring : a marking of events
Hadit358 : if there wasn't a single man or woman alive anywhere, would time still exist?
Wanduring : that is <as of now> irreversable
Wanduring : yes
Wanduring : it would
Wanduring : does a tree falling in the woods still make a sound?
Wanduring : yes
Hadit358 : but the tree was already there
Wanduring : even if there is no ear to hear it
Wanduring : the tree falls
Wanduring : disturbs the air
Hadit358 : the atoms of the tree were there to makeup its constitution
Wanduring : causing a mechanical vibration
Wanduring : whichis what sound is
Wanduring : time
Wanduring : would be the tree falling
Wanduring : event
Hadit358 : Time is not an event
Wanduring : air being vibrated
Wanduring : event
Hadit358 : it is an abstract comcept created by human perception to keep track of events that have or will take place
Wanduring : A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future
Wanduring : the tree stands
Wanduring : present
Wanduring : oops
Wanduring : the tree stands past
Wanduring : the tree falls present
Wanduring : the tree rots away future
Wanduring : event event event
Wanduring : will the tree suddently unrot
Wanduring : unfall
Hadit358 : created by your perception
Wanduring : no
Wanduring : whether i am there or not
Wanduring : that tree stood
Wanduring : that tree fell
Wanduring : that tree will rot
Wanduring : me seeing it happen
Wanduring : doesn't make it so
Wanduring : sequence of events
Wanduring : time
Wanduring : what most people consider time
Wanduring : is hours and minutes
Wanduring : which IS a complete human invention
Wanduring : but that isn't what time is
Hadit358 : the tree stood is an assumption created by shared perception. the tree falls is a series of actions performed in succesion at a point of perception. the tree will rot is another assumption created by shared perception.
Wanduring : this is like the study done with by a rather wierd guy
Wanduring : who believed that if you put a cat in a box
Wanduring : cloroformed the box
Wanduring : that the cat isn't actually dead
Wanduring : until you open the box and visually see a dead cat
Wanduring : which isn't true
Wanduring : the cat is dead inthebox whether or not someone opens it
Wanduring : you jsut don't percieve it as dead
Wanduring : until you see the dead carcass
Hadit358 : what is past and what is future? these are the components of Time. present is always there as it is happening at the moment
Wanduring : you see
Wanduring : this is where things get hazy
Wanduring : i shouldn't say hazy
Hadit358 : past and present are both created by the brain as a form of memory and assumption
Hadit358 : or rather
Hadit358 : past and future
Wanduring : no
Wanduring : if you weren't around
Wanduring : would the sun still rise tomorrow?
Wanduring : barring really freaky occurances
Wanduring : yes
Wanduring : it would
Wanduring : your mind DOESN"T have to register it
Wanduring : in order for it to happen
Hadit358 : but because it is happening or is going to happen
Hadit358 : not happening
Hadit358 : scratch that line
Wanduring : did it rise today?
Wanduring : was it inthe sky every minute untilit set?
Hadit358 : but because it is going to happen does not mean it is an occurance of the future, only when it happens is it an occurance
Wanduring : was it up there whether you could seeit or not?
Wanduring : it is a possible future event
Hadit358 : Time has nothing to do with it riseing or falling
Wanduring : marking of events
Hadit358 : it will "rise" and "fall" as the world spins
Hadit358 : marking of events
Wanduring : sequence of events
Hadit358 : exactly
Hadit358 : man made
Wanduring : no
Hadit358 : MARKING of events
Wanduring : the events happen whether a man sees it or not
Hadit358 : that is true
Hadit358 : but that does not mean that it is a factor cause by Time
Hadit358 : caused*
Hadit358 : it is caused by the rotational spin of the Earth
Wanduring : will time start flwoing backards
Wanduring : everythign that you have done today flow in reverse?
Hadit358 : it can
Hadit358 : within a black hole
Wanduring : you getting younger everyminute
Wanduring : that isn't true
Hadit358 : it is
Wanduring : time slows
Wanduring : but that is completely theoretical thoguh
Wanduring : not somethign i like to argue
Hadit358 : Time is theoretical as well
Wanduring : because it is based on assumptions that the astrophysicists who workedout the science of blackholes are correct
Wanduring : it is a fact to me
Wanduring : but we can debate in circles some more if you want
Wanduring :
Hadit358 : heh heh
Wanduring : though it would be more prudent to jsut say what is in our heads
Wanduring : i'm right and you are wrong
Hadit358 : to me, you're proveing every word I say in every line you type
Wanduring : heh heh
Hadit358 : you're marking the events as they occur. they do not occur because you're marking them nor do they occur because of Time, they simply occur
Wanduring : time is not really the marking of events
Wanduring : but the sequence of events
Hadit358 : no, it is not the sequence itself, it is marking points of the sequence
Wanduring : no
Wanduring : it IS the sequence
Wanduring : the sequence is unchangable
Hadit358 : the secuence will occur with or without Time
Wanduring : cause and effect
Wanduring : no that sequence is time
Hadit358 : heh heh
Hadit358 : so we've finnaly gotten to the core
Hadit358 : sure did take a while |
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I don't believe in time. It's a man-made invention. Pretty simple for me. I've existed in places where time is not. I even lost a half hour the other day and stopped my watch in the process. It is, as are all things in the Universe, what you choose to make it within your reality. |
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| | From:  imbas1 | Sent: 9/28/2004 2:10 PM |
Hey Nox, that half hour you lost the other day...what was it? I don't believe time was invented by man. The word time obviously was, but the word "time" is only used to describe the distance between two or more events occuring. There is little doubt that the world revolves, or that earth revolves around it's sun. Time as created by man, merely divided that revolution period into pieces to aid with scheduling. |
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I have to go to work now. I'll tell you when I get home...lol. |
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That is really my main point there imbas...time is the sequence that events take place...like i said to hadit...tree stands..the past..event occurs..the tree falls...present...then the next event occurs...the tree rots future...what most people see as time is as in minutes hours days etc etc..which IS a manmade invention to label the events or the span of time that the events occured in...the events don't need humans to watch them to mark them...they'll happen regardless...anyhow sorta becomes the question does a tree falling in an uninhabited forest still make a sound... the answer is yes it does. It jsut doesn't become meaningful sound unles soemthignis there to interpet the vibrations in the air... |
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Okay, I went to bed as soon as I got home yesterday...really crappy day. First I'll explain my opinion of time. I say it doesn't exist. Just because we choose to call the sun moving through the sky "time" and attach a particular meaning of the "passing" of existence with "time" doesn't mean anything. The sun passing through the sky is time to humans. Why isn't it just the sun moving? I understand the clock and know that all of the basest most mundane activities of temporary existence orbit around "time". I, however, am not a linear being. No one is. We are all immortal divine "spirits", "souls", Beings" etc...whicheverword you prefer experiencing a temporary linear environment for greater causes than any of us may be aware of. There is no "time". The tree is planted, it grows, it falls. All of these things happen consecutively. Human flesh dulls the inner eye so we see it planted, growing, and dying as seperate sequences of "time". The human experiment is linear. If our mortal senses didn't experience the world as such, we would all go mad. I don't shackle myself to that perception though. "Time", as it is, is a tool that was givn to us all before we came here to help us navigate the linear existence--nothing more. As for my lost half hour. I was sitting in the passenger side heading down to work. It's a long drive and I usually zone out. I was pondering the nature of a particularly strong and unusual energy that has taken up residence with me as of late. As I was thinking my head just sort of left my body. I looked at the clock in the truck and it read 8:22. Out of boredom I looked down at my watch to see if it was the same. My watch was frozen at 8:00. I waited a second thinking I was just tired. It stayed stuck. At this point I felt the human emotion of irritation and went to check my watch battery. As I did everything "whooshed" back and my watch was moving again at 8:22. There is no time in the astral. There is no time beyond the mundane plane. When we cross out of "here". That fact becomes clear. I've never had such manifest proof of that before but I always knew it. As always, the above statements are my opinion. I'm not telling anyone how to believe. |
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First of all Nox, that post is a direct attack on my belifs and how I should belive. I take extreme reservation to that fact and belive that you are trying to force these opinions on me which, is in fact, not true, because I'm just playing around :p
Anyway, unto Time. My friend talked to me about this concept and he was saying what I was trying to say, yet I was doing it at a much much much more mundane level. Trying to explain it, I find that I'm at a loss since these aren't my words and I've forgoten exactly how he put it, so I won't try. The jist of it though was that time itself is an illusion that is created by the perception of things moving "forward" (or downward) through it. Though its true nature trancends that which we call the Kosmos, although this is going into the unknown to thus far.
Time is, however, a paradox for no matter what time it is, it is always Now.
As for the missing time you experianced, there is a Mage who had posted something on chaosmatrix.org about an entity that he created called Formetecus(sp?). This being was at first an experiment in limear time whos job it was to compact time so that the person could do more things in a shorter time span. It did this very well, for instance he would be working and evoke this being to make time pass faster. Wihin the space of what he experianced as an hour, eight had gone by. Another example is when he was on the high-way going somewhere in which a normal nintey minute drive too fifteen. Eventually though, this servant became more and more self aware (a common trend when working with these archeotypes). He began to have his own plans and broke away from his creator's control. After some time, he came back to tell his creator that he was sick of the structure of Chronos which kept all things moving in linear time. Thus, he was taking it upon himself to challenge and destroy Chronos in all his forms (so throw away those watches!).
Heh that was kind of a rant only paralleling your experiance, but I wanted to give a base for my experiance of "missing time". I wished to see this Formeticus, thus I began invokeing him to see if he needed any assistance. He came, but we just didn't see eye to eye, so we just parted ways. The days that followed however began to show a bit of his frustration with my disturbance apparently. First, our computer clock became progressively slower untill it just finnaly stopped. Soon after, our microwave died on us, depriveing us of anothe rmeans of time keeping. Then the clocks began to break down one by one. The grand finalie was the cable box shutting down and never coming back on again. Apparently I had pissed 'em off, or he was just going about his business trying to take Chronos down. Either way, a bit of banishment throughout the house and some repairs/replacements, and everything got back to normal.
"I make it a point never to get stuck on points." -Old Man from the Matix: Revolutions
-Me- |
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