MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
Betwixt the Sea and Sky[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Messages and Momentos  
  General  
  Discussions  
  Fun & Games  
  World Care  
  Pictures  
  The Gallery  
  �?Fetch �?/A>  
  ☼₪ �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Treasure Box  
  Bards Bench  
  Sound Waves  
  Inspirations  
  Prayers & Wishes  
  Family Life  
  Smiles  
  Kith & Kin  
  Bards Bench  
  Workshop  
  Recipe & Remedy  
  Documents  
  Betwixt's Own  
  Betwixt's Pick  
  Bars and Banners  
  Backgrounds  
  Gifts  
  ☼₪ �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Kith & Kin  
  Parenting Links  
  Well Wishes  
  Amber Alert  
  ☼₪ �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Wheel of the Year  
  Metals  
  Tree Magic  
  Stones & Gems  
  Animal Lore  
  The Winds  
  Earth Energy  
  Moon Phases  
  Red Hill Valley  
  Kids Stuff  
  ☼₪ �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Library  
  The Bookstand  
  Study Hall  
  Tales & Legends  
  Pathways  
  The Occult  
  Pagan Nomads Dictionary  
  ☼₪ �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Nature's Realm  
  Herbal Applications  
  Herbal Safety  
  Witches Pharmacopoeia  
  Wild Herbs  
  The Healers Nook  
  Weed Wanderings  
  ☼₪ �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Common Ground  
  Religion ~ Timeline  
  Golden Rules  
  Religion of Magic  
  Emergence  
  Eco~Spirituality  
  Pantheism  
  Sacred Shapes  
  ☼₪ �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Chakras  
  Meditation  
  Auras  
  Colour  
  Astral  
  Past Lives  
  Life Forces  
  Reiki  
  Labyrinths  
  Stuff of Dreams  
  Dream Time  
  Lucid Dreams  
  ☼₪ �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Covenant of Peace  
  Desiderata  
  The 3 Worlds  
  The Red Road  
  Yin Yang  
  Warrior's Path  
  Chivalry  
  Brehon Law  
  ☼₪ �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Spirit Realm  
  Apparitions  
  Things that go Bump  
  Haunted  
  Mirror ~ Mirror  
  Spiral Staircase  
  ☼₪ �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Divination  
  Rune Lore  
  Numerology  
  A few last words...  
  �?± �?± �?± �?/A>  
  Community Posts  
  Phoenix  
  Re R.Phx  
  Hawk's Own  
  Mah Jongg  
  Badger's  
  Wanduring's  
  Nymph's  
  Fernmeadow's  
  Sidhabhair's  
  
  
  Tools  
 
Discussions : Will, a force of Evolution?
Choose another message board
View All Messages
  Prev Message  Next Message       
Reply
 Message 5 of 14 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamesæskwač  in response to Message 4Sent: 1/25/2005 8:49 AM
I don't mean to be a downer, but since this is definetely an area of intense interest to me, I feel the need to say something...hopefully I can say something useful without just being a naysayer...
 
>> In ourselves we see a sense of this in what we observe as traits inherited from an
>> ancestor who died before he could teach his traits or charms, yet never-the-less
>> they are miraculously observable to a differing degree in one or more of his
>> offspring or offspring’s offspring.
 
Again, I have to ask, who has seen this happen?  If it does happen, why isn't it documented?  I have never heard of evidence of someone's children acquiring traits that had been previously learned by its parents without first learning the trait themselves.
 
The Baldwin Effect can cause learned traits to become innate, but only if that learned trait is passed down long enough through cultural transmission.  If something unique is learned, but is not shared, there is no known mechanism (and none that I can imagine) for moving that knowledge into the genome.
 
>> One exciting idea I thought about after watching a nature episode about the birds
>> of paradise and how many unexplainable forms of beauty the starling has mutated
>> into on these isolated islands containing no predators was the idea that conscious
>> will may also play a role in evolution. The birds there rapidly mutated not out of
>> necessity but seemingly to some sort of a divine plan and conscious pleasure of
>> the spectacular and beauty.
 
Why must there be a "divine plan" at work here?  While not wanting to say that's impossible (of course, that would be silly), I do feel the need to point out that it is far from the most parsmonious explanation available.  Runaway sexual selection (two papers: a quite mathy one http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/9/5106, and a [possibly] more accessible one http://www.utm.edu/stafflinks/rirwin/391SexSel.htm) does create natural pressure for traits to evolove, and the mutations of these tropical birds that result in such a beautiful range of colours and patterns, as well as things like the giant peacock tail, are quite readily explained by it.
 
>> Say a certain seed eater learns a taste for flower necter but is frustrated by the
>> clumsiness of his bill at attaining it. He wishes his bill was a little longer and
>> narrower to better obtain it....
 
Again, I am very skeptical of any theory that claims that an individual's desire for something to happen somehow propagates back into the genome...while not wanting to say it's impossible, it postulates a very complicated system of transmission from neuronal state to DNA that just doesn't seem possible, given how the process of DNA translation from RNA to protein works.  There is definitely no direct "reverse translation" going on, and I very much doubt that anyone will ever find evidence of some kind of hormonal system that sends messages from brain to gamete and says "change this gene, we need a longer, narrower bill"...this is especially evident because there is no reason to believe that the phenotypes resulting from genetic encoding have any "knowledge", if you will, of how the genes code for them.  I'm afraid Occam's Razor slices that theory neatly into ribbons.
 
If, on the other hand, having a longer, slimmer bill bestows a fitness advantage on the bird...where birds with longer, slimmer bills are better able to survive and reproduce than others, then natural selection will drive the evolution of the species in such a way that they will, on average, have longer, slimmer bills.
 
I have no problem with the idea of Will, in the sense of god or our spritual being having a hand in evolution, but I must maintain that that force acts through the physical realities of this universe, and this theory doesn't seem to fit the physical facts.
 
-- sæskwač