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Discussions : Absolutes
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 Message 9 of 11 in Discussion 
From: Wanduring  in response to Message 8Sent: 2/26/2005 2:40 AM
  Well, Wolf-hound, I don't disagree with you completely, but I think you have misunderstood the basic premise. 
 
<Claiming that the universe is organized and ordered completely contradicts all modern physics. I mean, just for kicks, the uncertainty principle and the chaos theory are the two top ones that come to mind without even thinking>
 
  It doesn't contradict the current modern physics.  What is the uncertainty principle? "The more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa. "
(Heisenberg, uncertainty paper, 1927This is pretty straight forward and has alot of implications towards objective viewing of things.  It is directly related to obeservation...not what is.  The absolute in this would be that it has momentum and a position, but it states you can't measure them accurately without losing precision to one or the other.  But it doesn't disprove how the laws of the universe work, just that they are unmeasurable.  You can actually see the exact same thing in the old druidic learning triad of the three things that make up something:
                  What they think they are
                  What others think they are
                  And what they really are.
 
Relatively you can be what people think you are or what others think you are, but there is an absolute of what you REALLY are that isn't dependant on observation.  It is what truly makes you tick unbeknownst to you or others. This doesn't not detract from there being absolutes at all.
   Now what is chaos theory? In essence it is that a small change in the intial conditions can drastically change the long-term behavior of a system.  So where does this detract from basic laws of how the universe operates?  It doesn't, it is merely showing that it is impossible to predict how something will turn out without knowing all the intial conditions.  What does that mean?  It means that unless you know all the laws of the universe and how they interact, it is impossible to make long term predictions.  Once again an observation based theory.  It doesn't state that the world is full of disorder, just that the order is exceedingly complex to predict accurately in the longterm.  In a way another form of the uncertainty principle applied. In no way does it state that the laws of the universe don't work.  Just that we can't understand them all as of right now.  This may all change later as we find out more in our universe and how it works. 
  In chaos theory or the uncertainty principle is nothing to show that absolutes do not exist, but rather our limited abilities to UNDERSTAND those laws and how they interact.  Without those laws, there would be nothing.  That is what chaos is really, complete and utter nothing.  So believing in no absolutes is believing in nihilism.  Is hard for me to understand the denial of reality really. 
 
< And when it comes to being based on rules, *cue magick*. There exist some texts which document people doing such weird things such as teleportation, defying "gravity" (ala telekinesis), and disobeying laws such as conservation of matter and energy. Since people have experience and have witness such things, it would seem to put down your current theory that the universe is written by laws. >
 
  Do they disobey the laws of the universe or do they just transcend our understanding currently of how they work?  It doesn't put down my theory that the universe is based on laws.  It shows how limited our understanding truly IS of the universe.  To refer to a Eliphas Levi quote:
"When you see a phenomenon contrary in appearance to the laws demonstrated by Mathematics, be sure either that you have observed imperfectly or that you have been duped, or that you have been hallucinated."
This quote very quaintly explains all of what I just said.  Take "you have observed imperfectly " for an example.  If you do not know the laws of the universe completely, then you will always observe imperfectly.  Which isn't stating that the laws of the universe have been overturned...just that you don't know them well enough to observe them perfectly.
 
<You cannot say that the universe is based on our current understanding of physics and natural laws because they have been trespassed, and thus, the only absolute within our capabilities to understand is that we dont know what the absolute about the laws of the universe >
 
  To the first I never said that. To the last, absolutes exist whether we know them or not. Is the basis of reality.
 
<Sorry, but I like trying to throw a wrench in the machinery.>
 
Haha hah HAH...my kungfu is stronger than your wrench.
 
  You take it easy too.
 


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     re: Absolutes   Wanduring  2/26/2005 2:47 AM