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Family Life : Parental guilt, baptism & choices
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 Message 1 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«  (Original Message)Sent: 12/6/2004 2:53 AM
I just got off the phone with my mother. The topic was baptism, and her agenda was guilt. I am not impressed. She seems upset that my child has called herself pagan and believes that its high time she was baptized ... because "she is not recognized by god until she is baptized". My mother has officially requested I get my child baptized, and I have politely refused on grounds that baptism should be an act of choice. I am now in danger of being blacklisted because I am doing my child a disservice by not raising her in religion, I explained that religion is not the same as spirituality and that my child has the right to find her own path, rather then be given over to a theology not of her choosing. My daughter asked me what baptism is and I stated that it is the act of giving ones self or soul onto the christian god, and that it is the first step in a christian life... she said she does not want it. Well to be fair I have told her that we are going to explore and learn, if afterwards she is still not interested then so be it. For the record I have also invited my mother to share her religion with my child if she is so inclined. If she does not wish to introduce kidlet to it then she has no reasonable excuse to continue demanding a baptism.... which she likens to introducing the child to god. I say that her god has no reason not to recognize the child and to hold the child accountable for the sins of the father (or mother in this case) is all the more reason to seek a higher spirituality. Needless to say, mother is not impressed with me either.
 
I am granting my child the right to choose her Path as a young adult. Why should I give her over to christianity because it is the wishes of another? or set her up for having to maybe deny the baptism if she chooses another Path altogether. Do you feel a parent is morally obligated to place a child in religion not of their (or the child) choosing? Do you feel that baptism is a necessity, a social formality or an automatic tradition? Not to mention... why in the world would I give my child over to a religion I myself do not love and appreciate???
 
I would very much appreciate your feedback on this issue. I am definitely on the hot seat for this one, and want your insights or opinions. 


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 Message 2 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameÇâlâís•ÑøxSent: 12/6/2004 4:09 AM
I'm not a parent and have no intentions on ever being one but I've always thought that baptism should be a choice made by a responsible adult. I'm not Wiccan but I would liken it to allowing a child to draw down the moon just because they believed themselves to be Pagan. Like it or not, youth is a time of trials, confusion and many a changed mind. For some one to say "I want to be baptised" at a young age is reason enough for a parent to pause for thought. To actually take your child and force a baptism onto them is wrong. Baptism is a choice made out of a sacred decision to devote oneself to a god, a belief and a life. It is not a "good parent's responsibility". I actually find the suggestion that the Christian god won't "recognize" you untill you've been dipped preposterous. I was baptised as a baby with no way to prevent it and it still bothers me. I think your decision to expose your kid to all religions available, including Christianity, is a good one. Of course she might face times of struggle in forging her path with so much to choose from--I did as I was reaching out to Paganism--but we all face our own trials and I can attest to the fact that trying to cleanse oneself of Christian guilt, going to hell brainwashing is a much harder one.

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 Message 3 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMaryJaneVSent: 12/6/2004 5:47 AM
Red,
 
I can feel for you.   My parents were totally upset when I did not baptize my kids.  I didn't do it because I,myself was strugling with Christianity at the time, and also my husband refused to be a part of a Christian living because he is agnostic. 
 
I am very thankful I did not have my children baptized.  I do believe that a child needs to be exposed to a lot of different spiritualiries so they can make their own decisions. 
 
I think you have chosen the right path in inviting your mom to teach your daughter her beliefs...but your mother needs to realize that this is something that is out of your hands now as your daughter is old enough to refuse a batism or refuse ANY religion. 
 
That's just my 2 cents. 
 
 
mj
 

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 Message 4 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamesæskwačSent: 12/6/2004 7:50 AM
Red,
 
This topic is a personal one to me and one that has cropped up many times in discussion.
 
I was brought up in a very religious household, my father is a Christian priest.  After reading your post I am impressed all over again with my parents' wisdom in allowing their children to make their own choice for baptism.  In my father's church, baptism is necessarily a choice made by a responsible person who willingly accepts god and Christ and is making a very solemn vow linking them to god and the church.  Child baptism is (nominally) not supported in my father's church, and they use all the salient and reasonable arguments agianst it, two of which seem, to me, to be clinching arguments against it:  1) The first part of baptism is an act of asking god for forgiveness and a cleansing of sins, according to scripture a child below the age of choice cannot, by definition, have sinned, and thus has nothing to ask god forgiveness for 2) as argued by others here and by yourself, baptism is a solemn and life-long commitment to be made by an adult...child baptism never shows up in scripture and was something made up by churches.  The sad thing about it is that most families in my father's church don't actually follow this and end up guilting their children into becomming baptised when they're around eight years old, or so.
 
I was brought up in a religious household and sometimes find it annoying that there was such an effort to brainwash me into Christian beliefs...it is often difficult to know when certain thoughts on morality are my own, conclusions made by a process of reason and logic, or things that were simply drilled into me by my parents.  Despite that fact, though, I am very glad that my parents allowed me to make my own choice, even though it ended up being a choice against the one they wanted (I decided that it would be hyppocritical of me to be baptised into any church whose precepts I did not agree with).  There is a small amount of guilt there, yes, but it is eased so much by having (for the most part) reasonable parents that I can discuss my beliefs with.
 
I think your child will be better off, and more appreciative, in the end, if you let her find her own path and give her the freedom to choose baptism if that is her choice, because from god's point of view it is her choice, and I personally doubt that any forced or child baptism is binding in god's eyes, anyway.
 
Here is a link to a critique of infant baptism in the church, maybe it will help you to to have some Christian arguments on your side as well, when making your case:
 
There are quite a few more of these around, as well.
 
Peace,
Joe
 

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 Message 5 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameLeilaOfTheWoodsSent: 12/6/2004 9:44 AM
Hi Red,
 
My spiritual heritage is Mennonite (although I did not grow up in the faith) and for most Mennonite or other churches with Anabaptist origins, it is a basic tenet that one must be an adult and making a fully aware decision to be baptized.  A former Amish friend in an interfaith group I am in stated that young people are asked to take two years before they ask to be baptized, confirming their convictions only then to follow the faith with the ritual of baptism.
 
Personally, I see baptism in the Christian church more as religious ritual for the identification with fellow adherents than as a "must" in order to be recognized by God.  I think one's recognition by divinity is not dependent on any particular ritual.  (P.S. As an illustration for your Mom of this, have her read Psalm 138.)  :-)
 
Blessings,
 
Leila

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Sent: 12/6/2004 2:17 PM
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 Message 7 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameimbas1Sent: 12/6/2004 2:20 PM

Red,   Double whammy eh? I think perhaps your mom is stressing about your sister. Could that be playing into this? I was under the impression that you and your family already had an understanding on this. I can relate an experience from my family. My mother probably had the most influence on me in my curiosity for paranormal and pagan leanings, though being raised in a Catholic household. I discussed much of what I had found with her and generally found her very open minded as such things go. However, with the discovery of cancer in her sister and a shadow in herself recently, I saw her go full bore into the 700 Club and its fundamentalist leanings. Now we can only agree to disagree, as she fully believes that I will not be joining the rest of the family in the afterlife, due to my refusal to suspend rational thought and accept the Christian doctrine.

As you fully know, and supported by the general belief expressed in everyone’s letters so far, you are correct in your refusal to do what you do not believe. The machine is a powerful one. The general public believes that, of course you have the right to believe anything you want, as long as you follow societal rules as related to our Christian heritage. Exposing the hypocrisy is opening a huge can of worms with endless arguments and support documentation. Old testimate, new testimate, the bible itself is contrary on every subject, including baptism. You know all this.

What it comes down to is a fundamental right. That is, the right for a mother to do or teach what she feels is best for her child without the interference of society, or family, as long as the well being of the child is not at risk. Higher concerns, such as religion and spirituality are not something that a child or even an adult needs to support life. Higher concerns are found, or discovered when a person gets to that point where they ask the questions of why. Certainly an infant is not capable of communicating this concern. To baptize as an infant is to extend the influence of the church and its beliefs, into further generations. Baptism goes from an experience to dedicate oneself to a god of choice to a business decision for the machine that the Christian religion became with full knowledge of its decision to do so. To 'buck' this trend was initially an extremely dangerous thing. Though, no longer dangerous in most of the western hemisphere, because of thousands of years of habit, it's now thought of as antisocial as a minimum.

What can be done about it at your personal level? I believe it has risen to the surface in your family at this time, because your mother is at some level scared. Scared more than likely by the oncoming of your sister’s ill health. She feels both the need to do something and helpless. So when this subject came up, it became a duty. If I were you, I would hesitate on rationally defending your position, because logic and rational thought simply does not have anything to do with religion, or faith. (Faith being the secular name for 'make-believe') Just tell her you will consider it and think it over. Once the sore is no longer picked at, it heals and is forgotten.

There is one other thing you said that concerns me however. If your daughter is going around telling people she is pagan, she may not understand the importance that society puts on not being pagan. While it's fine for an adult to take on pagan pride, it's not going to generate a whole lot of good for your daughter. It is a risk that an adult accepts and understands. My personal opinion is that perhaps it would be better to discuss how one's beliefs should be kept obliquely personal, at least until she is older and better able to defend her position.


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 Message 8 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«Sent: 12/6/2004 10:29 PM
I've read through your replies ... thank you for being candid with me on the topic. I have every intention on sticking to my resolution to allow my child the right to choose and to knowingly enter into a christian path if that is what she eventually wants.
 
I don't know what went through my mothers mind when kidlet said she was pagan ... I can only guess. I did ask kidlet what she thought being pagan was, her responses was thus "believing in the gods & goddess, magic, fairies and other things I can't see" I can't argue with that 9 year old's perspective. I once stated in my essay about raising pagan children that I felt that a child should learn what there spirituality is before being called to defend it, therefore my advice to kidlet has always been for her to defer the subject when it comes up among friends and family, so that I would take the brunt of my relatives ire. Her assertion of paganism has kind of surprised me.... almost as much as it has surprised Grandy apparently, lol
 
Nox... you mentioned de-programing. That is exactly what I would like to avoid. I feel my choice to protect her right to choose will possibly by-pass the christian (in this case) programing that people inherit from their parents and community. IF it is christianity she wishes to explore, then I would like to give her a wider information base then just my mothers opinion.
 
MJ, I admit that I was rather surprised with the feeling my child put into expressing her opinion. She does NOT want baptism and asked me if she HAD to... when I said no, she asked if I was positive that she was not going have to do it without her wanting to. She was hugely relieved when I gave my word on it. So yes, at almost 10 years old she is old enough to start making choices.
 
Thank you for that link, Joe... I've read it and appreciate it! I'm glad to see that my instinct is valid... that baptism is a big commitment to a way of life, not just something to be done because of family tradition. I do intend to follow up a bit more research on the subject, one that validates it as a 'knowing and committed' choice. I don't want to be disrespectful of my mothers religious choices, however I am hoping she will understand that mine is not a knee-jerk reaction to christianity ... but a gift that allows my child a real freedom.
 
Leila ... I agree with you about baptism having strong social issues. And now that I've read the provided link, I have an inkling as to where it is and is not in the formal christian doctrine. I'm hoping this christian point of view will give her pause in her agenda. :o)
 
Imbas, I think you're right... this issue probably has its base in something else... like issues of mortality and redemption. I understand some of her reasonings, and I'm doing my level best at trying not to be insulted  because no matter how non-committal she is regarding my choices, I can't help but think she feels I'm in the wrong since they don't appear to be 'acceptable' choices for my child. However, I have no intentions on bringing that out in the open between us... there is no need and as you said, this is a personal agenda for her. My only chance of surviving this without a war is to be calm and rational about it, and to recognize she has a need of her own. I felt like telling her to bring godliness into her own life before shoving it onto others... but, tact and diplomacy got to my tongue first, thankfully. Ah well, I suspect you are correct and this may pass once the shadow of illness and holiday stress move on. Lets hope so at any rate.
 
I really appreciate being able to discuss this ... its not often I say no to my mother... simply because I do have the highest regard for her opinion. So I think my flat-out refusal was giving me guilty daughter syndrome, lol Thankfully it didn't last the night. However, I wasn't entirely sure of my footing where the formal and social doctrine of baptism was concerned. Thanks!
 
If anyone else would like to wade in on this one, please do :o)
 
Brightest Blessings to you All
 
Red
 
 

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