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| | | From: Dovey (Original Message) | Sent: 6/28/2008 12:46 AM |
In Galatians 2, Paul in context is explaining that we are not justified by our ability to obey God so perfectly that we "earn" our salvation by our perfection -------Paul also explains that once we turn to God and are forgiven and come under grace through Jesus �?we must not go back into sin ----- for Christ is not a minister of sin.
Gal 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." (KJV)
We must NOT build again our old sinful past. Grace is not license. Rather, Paul compares God's laws to a school teacher who brings us to Jesus-------bringing us into a more mature spiritual relationship with God Gal.3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Now consider simple logic for a moment. We've all gone to school right? How did you learn to write, so that you could write and ask deep questions? How did you learn to read so you could study? Do you know any math? I presume we all do.
Now once students graduate from school, it is because they have LEARNED what they NEEDED to learn, and are ready now to APPLY & LIVE what they have learned. They do not need to be perpetually under the school master, like little children. They are now mature �?they have LEARNED! They now know how to read and write �?they know basic math.
When you came out from under the constant guidance and correction of your school teachers �?did you then "THROW AWAY" everything they taught you? Or, do you continue now to IMPLEMENT what you learned under your school master, as an adult?
When we graduate, does 2+2 no longer equal 4? Are the laws of mathematics null and void because we learned them, but now don't need too be taught them any longer? Or do we not APPLY them in life?
So to is with God's law. The law brings us to Christ. We then come to Him and the Father in a more mature understanding way. The law also points us to Jesus, because as good as it is, we cannot save ourselves by it. The law shows us the faults of OUR way of life, and shows us the need for mercy and help to be more Godly and less worldly. The law shows us all HOW TO LIVE GODLY LIVES, and the need for our Savior. Rm.7:7"What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
It is true that if we think our salvation will come by our perfection in being able to keep God's law perfectly �?we have no hope. The law will demand our death. But if we think we can then sin willingly because we have a merciful God �?then we mock God and His way of life, and make Jesus a minister of sin.
God will not tolerate that. This is why the aged apostle John said (long after Paul died) that those who "PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS" are of God, but those who keep practicing sin are of the devil!
I Jn 3:10 "In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother." (NKJ)
When we practice something, it takes EFFORT. We try. But sometimes we fall short. However we get up and keep trying �?and with God's help we grow and overcome a little at a time. We are forgiven through the blood of Jesus, but we PRACTICE righteousness. David said: "all thy commandments are righteousness" (Ps.119:172).
Those who don't take the effort to practice righteousness �?but practice lawlessness �?will be told by Christ Himself to get away from Him.
Matt 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (NKJ)
Wouldn't you rather hear the words "Well done good and faithful servant "? Let's thank God for His mercy in Jesus and let's practice righteousness. LOVE DOVEY |
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Dovey, all you or any other adventist ever do is screem that we who live by grace, live ungodly and disobedient lives. It is lies of Satan. I grant you, we live much more holy than any saturday keepers, who deny the entire NT. Now, I asked you this before. You ignore all of my question, as have all other deceived law folks, who have been in here. So if you have the truth, you must be able to answer these Scriptures. So all I want is for you to answer this one for us: Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. I ask you, Dovey. What is the above speaking about. Please give me your explanation of this. He said, a new covenant. What is that speaking about? A new covenant? What is the new covenant? He made the FIRST old. So what is the FIRST, WHICH HE IS SPEAKING ABOUT? How was it made old? That which DECAYETH (means rots)-- and waxeth OLD. (the first one). Is ready to VANISH AWAY. What was old? What was the FIRST ONE? How is it OLD? What happened with it was ready to VANISH AWAY? Does not this fit exactly 11Cor 3 and Eph 2? If you deny this is speaking about those commandments written on STONE, then you take some Scripture and DISPROVE ALL OF THESE LESSONS WITH IT. PROVE THIS IS NOT SPEAKING ABOUT THOSE STONES WHICH GOD GAVE TO MOSES. Prove all of these Scriptures are WRONG. Prove to me what waxed old and vanished away. Prove what was abolished. If it was not those ten commandments, written on stone, then you show me scripture which says what it was. Or. Do you call all of these scriptures, lies? |
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Dovey, or any other folks who think you are under law, I give you these two verse, written by the Apostle, Paul. Now if any of you can explain this to me, and tell me that I must still be under law, then I will listen. Please tell me, do you accept the Book of Romans as God's Word? If not, then why even bother with any of this religion stuff? So here it is. Now just these two verses, alone, even if there were no more, proves what I am telling you.......NT Christians are NOT UNDER LAW. Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. nOW TELL ME, is this just saying , it is , not it aint? I have proven what I teach. Now you prove to me that I have to still be under law. See the contrasting work, BUT. We are not under law, BUT, under grace. Cannot be both. |
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| | | From: Dovey | Sent: 7/17/2008 2:54 AM |
Yes. You do post lots of Scripture but, you post it teaching on a faulty PREMISE. Your conclusion of what you read in Scripture is wrong. The Old Covenant is about physical blessings to the nation of Israel It was for national blessings. You are under the impression that "Old Covenant" means LAW. With that misunderstanding the conclusion you come up with and teach is faulty. A Covenant is an "AGREEMENT'. It's an agreement between two parties. This is the definition of a "Covenant": “An agreement between two or more persons to do or refrain from doing some act; a compact.�?/STRONG> The Old Covenant was Between God and the nation of Israel. The conditions of the Covenant for Israel was obedience to God's law. That was THEIR PART. God's part was to bless them with national greatness. The PEOPLE broke that agreement with God because they failed to keep their side of the agreement. They disobeyed all of God's laws. Deu 11:27-28 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. The problem with the Old Covenant was NOT God's Law. The problem with the Old Covenant were the PEOPLE. A people with CARNAL MINDS. This is the foundation we are to build on and teach. Your foundation is built on teaching against the law of God. Over and over again you basically teach that the Old Covenant was abolished because of God's law. That is incorrect. The reason the Old Covenant is obsolete is because the people of Israel were carnal minded humans without God's Spirit. DOVEY |
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Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Tell it to Paul. So if I am teaching faulty, so was Peter, Paul and even Jesus. See the above verses? It did NOT say old covenant. ... now did it? No. It said, we are not under the LAW. but...under Grace. You are under law, so you 'hear' the 'law' message in Scripture and therefore cannot HEAR THE GRACE MESSAGE. I am teaching the Grace Message, or the NEW COVENANT. That old covenant was the law of Moses. The new covenant is the law of God. You are under the law of Moses. There is only one law under Grace,....that is love, and be repent and be baptized in the name ofJesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and receive the promise of the HOLY GHOST. Those of the law are not partakers of this promise. The children of bondage are not heirs with the children of the Free woman. Read Galations. that law which was given from MT SINAI IS THIS BONDAGE. Nothing but the ten commandments were given from Mt Sinai. You do great err, not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God. Ga 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? Ga 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Ga 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Ga 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (You need to take good heed to this verse) How could anyone miss this easy-to-see truth? Ga 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (you need to take good heed to this verse.) Ga 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Ga 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Ga 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Ga 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Ga 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. G a 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. p.s. I do appreciate the good way you debate. But I still ask you to answer the things I post and ask. If you cannot, then perhaps you need to seek to know why. This much Scripture cannot be wrong. See, I gave you here two different Scripture proving that it is the old COVENANT which was given from Mt Sinai. that is the ten commandments. If you do not know this, go back and study Exodus for yourself. |
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| | | From: Dovey | Sent: 7/17/2008 9:13 AM |
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. The penalty of the law has no dominion over a person who is forgiven. Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.<Freeborn> After we are forgiven, does that mean we can go on sinning because we are under Grace? Paul says..God Forbid! He also says...Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Tell it to Paul. So if I am teaching faulty, so was Peter, Paul and even Jesus. See the above verses? It did NOT say old covenant. ... now did it? No. It said, we are not under the LAW. but...under Grace. You are under law, so you 'hear' the 'law' message in Scripture and therefore cannot HEAR THE GRACE MESSAGE.<Freeborn> See how you jumped to conclusions there?? Grace is not the same as lawlessness. Look what Paul also says... Romans 7:7, �?FONT color=#ff0000>What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.�?nbsp; The law shows us how sinful sin really is. Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary defines Grace as “favor, kindness and mercy.�?No mention is made about Grace being license to disobey God’s law. To be “under grace�?/EM> means to be extended mercy and forgiveness as a result of sincere repentance and resolve to obey God. So you see? I can hear the Grace message loud and clear. I am teaching the Grace Message, or the NEW COVENANT. That old covenant was the law of Moses. The new covenant is the law of God. You are under the law of Moses. There is only one law under Grace,....that is love, and be repent and be baptized in the name ofJesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and receive the promise of the HOLY GHOST.<Freeborn> The New Covenant is based on "BETTER PROMISES". NOT different laws. Through the New Covenant we are granted : Forgiveness, Justification , God's Spirit and Eternal life. Once we are justified by the blood of our Lord Jesus, we are forgiven. After baptism God promises to give us His Spirit. Why does God give us His Spirit?? Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them] There is nothing under the New Covanent that says we are under different laws or no laws. What we see is God placing His Laws in our hearts. Hebrews 10:15-16 "[Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;" If God's laws are in our heart we LIVE BY THEM. The Law is thus fulfilled in us who walk according to the Spirit. Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Those who walk in the "Spirit" have but the "old man" to death. Notice now...we put the "old man" to death.....NOT THE LAW. The "Old man" is disobedient ,wicked and sinful. The "old man" is CARNAL and God says that the "Carnal mind is at emnity towards His law"...Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Are we carnal minded? DOVEY |
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Yes, being carnal minded MEANS trying to live by the LAW. that law is the carnal mind. It is the enmity. It is what Adam did to take the world into death and misery. You know nothing about the truth of God's holy word. You only repeat the foolishness of the adventist lie, saying that we claim to be able to live lawless and godless. maybe some 'churches' teach this. I know. I was raised in a foolish church, baptist, which taught that we cannot ever quit sinning, but must sin every day. if there ever was a teaching from Satan and the pits of hell, it is that sinning religion. None of you false churches know God's truth. You think that you have grace, but must go back to law. It is like saying you are dead but alive, in darkness but in light, carnal, but spiritual You are totally carnal, for that means going by the works of the flesh, which is the LAW. yOU DO RESIST ALL TRUTH. |
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| | | From: Dovey | Sent: 7/19/2008 11:01 PM |
Yes, being carnal minded MEANS trying to live by the LAW. that law is the carnal mind. It is the enmity. It is what Adam did to take the world into death and misery. You know nothing about the truth of God's holy word.<FREEBORN> No being "carnal minded" is being at EMNITY towards God's law. Obedience to the commandments of God is being the opposite. It's being led by God's spirit and having God's law in our heart. DISOBEDIENCE took the world into misery. Adam DISOBEYED. Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? DOVEY |
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| Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. |
| Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. |
| But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. |
If you are led of the Spirit, or have the Holy Ghost, ye are NOT UNDER THE LAW. you cannot be obedient and hold to law, after Grace was offered. It is total deception to think that you are holding to law, and have the Spirit of God. It is not given to those under the law. You are disobeying God's commandment, when you hold to law and do despite to the Spirit of Grace. You are thus still under the old covenant, which God did away with, and you are still under the blood of bulls and goats. The blood of Jesus does NOT SANCTIFY THAT OLD COVENANT OF LAW. So in clinging to man made doctrine, of being under law, you do disobey all of God's COMMANDMENTS. You flat refuse to deal with the COMMANDMENT GIVEN TO ADAM OR THE ONE GIVE TO PETER TO GIVE TO THE WORLD. Why? perhaps you need to stop defending this false teaching and ask yourself, why, why do you disregard the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, in order to stay under the LAW OF MOSES? Why do you yeild yourself servants to obey the law of Moses and deny the commandments of God? Why do you stay under law, and thus sin against God? jO |
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Hebrews 7:14-16 14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. Hebrews 9:7-15 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; |
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Larry, don't you know that Paul did not know what he was talking about? Ellen White made up stories which mean more than Paul's words. quoting Paul's words is doing despite to adventist doctrine, so therefore it is yielding yourselves to sin. You do yeild yourself to obey the Commandments of God, and not holding to the law of Moses, which is bondage. Why yield yourselves to the law of mOses and forsake the commandments of God? Why not find the joy of the Lord, by obeying these commandments of God...>>. | For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, | | Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? | | And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. |
Ever speak in tongues, as the Spirit gives utterance? Was that under the law of Moses? Why disobey this law of God and yeild yourselves to sin of keeping xmas? easter? selling things for church? following man instead of God? refusing the gifts of the Spirit? refusing to obey the commandments of God. refusing to REST on the sabbath day. gotta get OUT and GO. yielding to sin. God hated this thing of going out the door so bad, he had people stoned to death for this disobedience. but these folks today can disobey all the time and pretend they are really keeping it. (are you looking? do you see the deception? the hypocricy?) Now God COMMANDS MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT. Why break this COMMANDMENT OF GOD? AND REFUSE TO REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS/ if they have not been remitted this way, then you are still yielding your members to sin of disobeying these commandments of God? The willing and OBEDIENT shall eat the good of the land, The disobedient will perish. |
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| | | From: Dovey | Sent: 7/20/2008 3:46 AM |
Paul knew exactly what he was teaching and he wasn't teaching against God's Law. He did teach however that salvation DID NOT come through the law. You have over looked the times I have stated that. Lawkeeping is not what saves us. This is what Paul was teaching. However, this does not mean Paul was teaching against the law. He was talking to his fellow Jewish brothers who were taught that salvation came through the law. They thought that all they needed to do is keep the letter of the law perfectly and that God HAD to save them. Paul said NO. What saves us is the Messiah dying in our stead. Salvation comes only through Jesus and this is what his Jewish brothers were lacking. When we understand that salvation comes through the Messiah, we can then understand that we are justified through His blood. Once we are justified, we are free from the penalty of death. Which comes from what???? Transgressing the law/commandment. This is why God tells us to repent from sin. What is sin???? "Sin is the transgression of the law..." I John 3:4. Once we repent and stop sinning (transgressing the law)...we are on the road to righteous christian living. The first 4 commandments tell us how to love God with our whole mind and heart......and......the last 6 commandments tell us how to love our fellowman as ourselves. Yes, Paul knew exactly what he was teaching. And many try to twist what he is saying to teach DISOBEDIENCE towards God's Holy and perfect commandments. DOVEY |
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Certainly Paul knew what he was teaching, and so do I. it is very clearly written; no need for confusion. He was writing to the entire world, not just some jewish folks. where did you get that lie? Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Guess you never read that? the entire Word of God is for EVERYONE. there is no difference. you never read that either? what do you read? I know. Only some false literature...for this post proves it....just repeating something you have memorized from a false teacher. You are calling Jesus Christ a LIE IF YOU SAY HIS COMMANDMENT IS NOT LIFE. he said, and I have posted it two or three time already....but you are just too blind and deaf to hear it......Jesus said, God gave me a commandment and i know that his commandment is LIFE. So you are full of lies and confusion. You are truly making me just a bit sick with all this junk you keep spewing out. If I had not worn myself out typing scripture to you over and over, which proves every word you say is a lie, then it would be different. You flat refuse the word of God. So I am just a bit sick of dealing with you. You truly make me sick with your repeated lies and lies and lies. paul made it very clear that we are not to live by that law, which came from Sinai, for it is boundage and the bond child. and you turn around and try to pretend that Paul spoke in favor of that law? sick , sick, sick. You are sick and full of filthy lies against God's holy Word. Peter made it clear that we are not to go by the law of moses. Now stop your lies. I truly am sick of your mouth. go somewhere else and spew out your sick lies. You obviously hate the Word of God. I would have dealt with you from now on, if I saw even one bit of honestly in you...but it is not there. you hate the truth of the NT. so I have nothing else for you. Your false teaching is puke and vomit. You are teaching death and darkness. God's holy and perfect COMMANDMENTS WERE SPOKEN BY JESUS CHIRST, NOT MOSES. you adventist have the ugliest spirit in this world!! certainly Paul did not teach against that and neither do i. You are the one. You flat refuse NT Salvation. you are of satan and his words you do teach. so now, I do not wish to deal with you any longer. You are making me sick. You sit like a spider, waiting for some tiny bug to get into your web. It is sickening. |
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Yes, Paul knew exactly what he was teaching. And many try to twist what he is saying to teach DISOBEDIENCE towards God's Holy and perfect commandments. DOVEY
Me: See, the above statement is an example of your subtle bashing of me and falsely accusing me. I am sick of your junk. You are so silly, it stinks. Certainly Paul knew what he was teaching when he said, if you are led of the Spirit you are NOT UNDER THE LAW. Now call that a lie. No one is twisting Pauls words to say he taught disobedience to God's commandment. STOP YOUR LIES. I AM SICK OF YOUR PUKE AND LIES. DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF THAT ANYMORE. I HAVE NOT FALSLY ACCUSED YOU OF ANYTHING. You admit to your foolishness. you admit that you would not keep that 4th commandment the way Moses said for it to be done...yet you hypocrite, pretend to be keeping it,,,by going to some false church......knowing that no scriptures says this is keeping it. you have admited that there is no scripture for this procedure, yet you feel free to drop all that Moses said to do and pick up something which is not once written in Scripture. and you sit here like a sick spider and weave your web of deceit and subtilty. No, you are not a sincere person. You are a servant of Satan and I am sick of your junk. Jo Smith. Take your puke elsewhere. I would rather sit here forever without a post than to have to put up with your vomit. |
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| | | From: Dovey | Sent: 7/20/2008 5:25 AM |
You admit to your foolishness. you admit that you would not keep that 4th commandment the way Moses said for it to be done...yet you hypocrite, pretend to be keeping it,,,by going to some false church......knowing that no scriptures says this is keeping it.<FREEBORN> I never said I was perfect. BUT! just because I'm not perfect doesn't mean God's Commandments aren't perfect. Why would my imperfection make God's commandment void?? It's not God's fault. So what is hypocritical about that? None of us are perfect. That's why we need a Savior. DOVEY |
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