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From:

NewHolga

Sent: 9/17/2007 6:52 AM

Thanks everyone. I'm considering every word of every post.

The thing is, my opinions of all this are moving around since the divorce. Before the divorce - it was black and white for me. I was married, I cut off all thoughts and feelings of other men - and wished for the same from my spouse (didn't get that, though). During that horrible two years of divorcing, I thought all cheaters and all OW or OM or whatever were the scum of the earth, destroyers of children, etc.

Now, I think of how many years I stayed in a marriage that was killing me and wonder if I'd just allowed myself to be friends with a man who was kind (I had some opportunities - but ran for the hills from them.) I might have realized that it was possible to leave and that I was lovable and that it was possible that marriage did not have to include abuse for me. I see him in the same boat with his wife - same kinds of manipulations, mind games, selfishnesses, she uses the kids as tools against him, etc. But, he's hanging in there because it's the right thing to do, because he doesn't want to disrupt his kids' lives, because he promised. Because divorce would be a huge mess. Because he likes being married and does not want to be alone. For the first two years we wrote, I told him divorce is hell, avoid it at all costs. And I kept him abreast of every single misery divorce brings to the kids, to your life, etc. But, it did bring some relief and some freedom and unexpectedly, a lot of happiness. Instead of wrecking my kids, they are more stable and happy and secure.

So, I can't be totally against divorce in all honesty anymore. Sometimes, it's the most healthy thing you can do for yourself and your kids.

I have worried about the emotional affair part for the past two years which is when I first heard of such a thing. Where is the line on that? It is so not fair that for 23 years, I wanted to feel emotional closeness with my husband and tried every way I could, but did not. And here, without effort, I feel it for someone who is offlimits. I have tried to limit our conversations to my life or to encouraging him in his where he is - bloom where we are each planted. But, he is comforting to me and that is so rare that I'm afraid to throw it out.

From:

Mary☼Sunshine

Sent: 9/17/2007 10:41 AM

I don't go to church because I'm just burned out and because there are some weird things there regarding women and divorced women/ older single women are treated as kind of second class citizens that need to stay in the background.

Well, I am not a church going person, but for other reasons. BUT I do know that you can find other fellowships/church communities who will welcome you and your daughters to the table (so to speak) with welcoming arms and full citizenship. I encourage you to seek those out.

Now...on to the other stuff. Something I too have been giving a lot of thought to lately because of recent happenings in the world around me.

Part of me is falling for him and that's something I never even felt for my ex. it's the most wonderful thing I've ever felt.... Part of me thinks this is highly immoral and will bring only shame to myself and my children and everyone in his world will hate me, everyone in mine will be disgusted with me.

You are sooooo doing the right thing to cut ties with this lovely man, now. And it will hurt. Alot. You will likely feel a tremendous sense of loss, a feeling like part of your heart is gone. Everything you wrote in post 9 could have been written by me... reflecting my feelings as well on marriage and divorce. I too was being killed from the inside out. I too believed marriage at all cost. I too can no longer say divorce is the worst thing for a family.

However, the break up of a marriage should, in my opinion, involve the two parties only. Third parties have no business being involved... and it is 100% morally correct for you to step aside and insist he evaluate his own motives for his marriage and any relationship he may or may not be having with another woman.

I think, Holga, you already know what is right and true. You know the path to take

on this. As Karin said, listen to your heart. It is wise.

Thinking of you!

From:

NewHolga

Sent: 9/17/2007 11:23 AM

That's the problem - the conflict between my heart and my head. My head says run, my heart says stick around and see what happens. If it were just physical, I'd have no problem running because I don't like to feel guilt and that always overides temptation for me. This time, though, my heart wants to feel. My heart feels no guilt for feeling good things. My head says shut up and get out of there before you get caught in a big mess.

From:

NewHolga

Sent: 9/17/2007 1:29 PM

I am looking for items to list on the con side -

1. I can't fully embrace what I've accomplished after teh divorce adn go after new goals if I'm thinking about his life.

2. I am too distracted and not taking care of my own life

3. I'm going to end up ashamed of myself.

4. My kids tell me I"m their role model. I don't want ot blow that.

5. My bosses asked me out to lunch and I said no because I didn't want to miss his call. I could have had fun.

Help me help me. I am so vulnerable because of so many years of neglect adn loneliness. I'm old, too, I'm 49, and I don't do bars or skimpy clothes or flirty behavior with strangers, because I'm always having to be a good mom. And I can't take risks because my kids need me. I know a lot of older women at work who never dated after divorce or gave up and now they are old and alone and I really don't want to do that. Help me know how to end this without having to work up a sweat and sound mean just to make myself do it.

From:

NewHolga

Sent: 9/17/2007 9:14 PM

Just because I'm the type that has to overanalyze and process everything through obsesssing over it and talking through every angle a million times . . .

I've read that most men who are teh stable, long term commitment type won't end a relationship, even if it's awful, unless they know where they are going - unless they have someone in mind to go to.

That's how stable men do with employment, right? they don't leave a job, even if it's awful, until they get another one and can guarantee a paycheck will be coming without disruption.

Traditionally, women could quit a job and coast for a bit if they had parents or a husband. Apparently, women can do without men easier than men can do without women.

So, I'm wondering if the majority of opinions on this is skewed toward the feminine because we speak up more. And as women, we know what we'd do - we'd quit the marriage first. but we don't. We wait until we are cheated on or left. We hang on to the point of foolishness. Men see it ain't working, then hang on until they can figure out a place to go next - like securing a new job or place to live before you leave what you've got.

From:

NewHolga

Sent: 9/18/2007 9:54 AM

I can tell you what is more destructive to a marriage - not loving your spouse, not cherishing or respecting her. Gaslighting. My ex didn't have an affair - I don't think. He went around in public acting like he adored me, braggin about his devotion to me. He wouldn't say, "I love Holga" he'd say "I love my wife - I really love my wife." Like a mantra he was using to convince himself. But there were so many ways he made me feel unloved and he played so many twisted mind games that I doubted myself. An affair would have been more honest. I could have been furious and kicked him out and held my head up with righteous indignation. All the affair would have destroyed would have been the marriage. He destroyed me. He damaged our oldest daughter by using weird tactics on her. I'm certainly not advocating affairs and I'm not going to get involved in one (which is why I wanted everyone to lecture me to make me strong against temptation) - but you should know that, painful as it is - there are worse things. If you are the scorned wife, you get sympathy. Everyone agrees he's a scum and the OW is a ho. But, if you have no bruises and there is no other woman and he's out being Mr. Charming family man, while you sit at home dazed, confused and depressed - you get no sympathy at all. He gets it for being stuck with an albatross wife. If my kids had not grown up and stood by me, I would still be fading away.

From:

SkylarkNM

Sent: 9/18/2007 10:29 AM

Holga, If your husband didn't have an affair, then you cannot really understand how it feels or what it means. Scorned women get sympathy??? Only on DCS. I'm seen as the woman who didn't love him enough, who didn't understand what a wonderful guy he was, who didn't sacrifice for him because all I think about is myself. (And our autistic child.) The one who didn't make him happy...who failed. My truth is that he was abusive, in his first marriage and in this one. I am destroyed beyond description, have lost myself, lost too much weight, can't sleep...I feel utterly lost...because of the other woman...who snuck into our lives and he never told me...never gave me a chance to stabilize within the events. In other words, other women are there, lending support, and if the wife has no idea (which she never does) she doesn't even know that she is fighting for her marriage. She may actually want to save her marriage, but instead she has bad days and fusses, and feels lonely, and gets mad because husband is distant, or rude to her because she's a nuisance to him now (but doesn't know it)....she doesn't even know she is digging her grave if she wants to save her marriage. Then...it's too late. She never really had a choice. Should a wife always throw herself at her husband's feet...never stand up for what she believes in and knows is right, just in case he is wandering into the arms of another woman? That doesn't make sense. Honesty is the ONLY thing that sets boundaries...and when there isn't any honesty, the marriage is completely doomed.

I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of having an affair vs. a loveless marriage. I feel like I had both...my husband had a love/hate relationship with me...but the betrayal was much, much worse because it broke me...made me question reality, left me thinking of every little thing, clue, sign that I was too stupid to see, makes me feel like I'm not even worth honesty (which doesn't cost a dime, by the way, so I'm worth less that that!), broke every agreement we ever made, left me with a special needs child that he would only love on his terms and loved the most when he had another woman there...and carried on for the better part of a year (or more) without my knowing it!

It sounds to me like you have made up your mind. Only you know what is best for you, and we all struggle so hard for happiness. I wish you luck. Sky

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Message 37 of 57 in Discussion

From:

craftywtch

Sent: 9/18/2007 10:31 AM

let them work it out for themselves and u run for the hills till and if he decides to become a single man nothing is worse that end up thinking u were the cause of someone elses pain ...jmho

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Message 38 of 57 in Discussion

From:

NewHolga

Sent: 9/18/2007 10:42 AM

I have made up my mind. I"m going to tell him no more contact at all. If after a year or two, he finds himself free, then maybe he can contact me. But, I'm focusing on my work and kids and the people around me. The whole thing has been too conflicting and has taken up too much of my emotional energy. I dont' need another bad situation to wreck my life or my kids'.

But, I do know what it's like to have your husband flirt with other women in front of you. Worse - I know what it's like to have him treat your oldest daughter like his girlfriend and allow other people to think she is (she put this in a statement to police as an adult - I always thought that was all in my head and said nothing until I read her statement) He let people think I was his mother once. When that daughter grew up and wouldn't let him near her, he started on the next one. A customer at that daughter's work saw my ex and our second daughter together, didn't know he was my daughter's family, and told her he was livid at "that man over there with a girlfriend far too young for him - she's just a child." So, if you think I don't know what it's like - I do. He and the wife of his cousin had somethign going on and that marriage eventually ended - but I could never prove it. I just saw how she flirted and cavorted around him and how he fell over himself. I saw how he ran to the pastor's house, who had two teenage girls with crushes on him and had supper over there several nights a week - while demanding I have dinner on the table at 6 sharp or he'd throw a big fit. How he'd get the pastor's wife to cut his hair and make his birthday cake and how she loved all that attention from him and was compassionate to his every complaint about me. How she sympathized with him, pushed her daughters toward him and how he paid the pastor $100 per day to ride with him (he was self employed) when he made me think we coudn't afford healthcare or groceries and how the pastor would counsel me to give him everything he wanted and that if I didn't and he had an affair it would be my fault. I know what it's like to have all the decks on every side stacked agasint you, and you still have to take care of babies and toddlers and find a way to put a meal on with very little money.

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Message 39 of 57 in Discussion

From: Maggie

Sent: 9/18/2007 10:44 AM

Ana took the words out of my mouth...Been following this thread but I know I do not have the tact to express myself without hurting you. I would back out gracefully and let your friend and his wife make their own decisions. I would not be able to look anyone in the eye if I even thought I was the cause of another woman's pain. My husband's gf was "just a friend" and she didn't give a rat's ass that she made it easier for my piece of shit husband to destroy a family. The little slut had the nerve to tell me exactly how long they had been f**king (to use her term). Let's just say I'm still borderline dangerous within 100 yards of this slut. My xtb is just as guilty but she was his accomplice (sp?).

Run, because reality is that you will have to shoulder some of the responsibility by being his net or back up plan or whatever term you like to give it.

Take care,

Maggie

From:

kkay_tyler

Sent: 9/18/2007 11:04 AM

"All the affair would have destroyed would have been the marriage."

Since your ex "didn't have an affair - I don't think.", then you can't possibly know.

It wouldn't be a longshot to bet that IF your husband HAD cheated on you, you would be saying something quite different.

I have to tell you, Holga, it's not easy to feel sympathetic for someone who has little to no compassion for others. Yes, you were hurt by your ex. I get that. But guess what--ALL of us were hurt in one way or another. Pain can't be measured, and since it's impossible to truly feel any pain other than our own--it also can't be compared.

Frankly, I don't understand what your last post (#33) has to do with the emotional affair you are having with a married man. Do you think that because your ex treated you so badly, you have a right to cause pain to someone else? That's what it sounds like to me. You seem to be dismissing infidelity as being insignificant while attempting to bolster your own sense of entitlement. Not cool.

When you were sitting at home "with no bruises" feeling "dazed, confused and depressed", you at least KNEW what you were dealing with and have the option of how to respond.....a cheater's spouse doesn't have that option.

kay

ps Fortunately, my husband didn't cheat, either, but my heart goes out to those who have had to suffer the betrayal and other affects that infidelity causes.

From:

Libby719

Sent: 9/18/2007 11:54 AM

Holga,

I had an emotional affair (that led to a physical affair). Neither of us were in relationships at the time, but the situation was just not right (nor realistic).

I am suffering the consequences of that relationship right now. The pain of it ending hurts much like my separation from my ex (who was a cheater).

There is no question that I entered into the relationship at a vulnerable time. If I had to do it all over again, I would have NEVER treaded in those waters. I just didn't know what I was up against.

My suggestion to you is to cut the ties now. Use this as a learning experience, tell yourself that ties like these CANNOT have a good ending, they just can't, and they don't.

My experience with men, although not terrible extensive, has shown me that most men are in the relationship THEY WANT TO BE in. If he is with his wife, that is because that is where he wants to be. I am sure he is enjoying the ATTENTION from you. The attention feels good to him.

My experience showed me that I misread his liking the attention I gave him as him liking me. There was no connection. He simply liked the attention.

Cut ties...If he is serious about a relationship with you...he knows the proper path. If he does not take those steps, he is not interested. Libby

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Message 56 of 57 in Discussion

From:

NewHolga

Sent: 9/18/2007 12:17 PM

Thank you so much, Libby. Thanks so much.

Emotional Affairs
by Peggy Vaughan

The key to determining whether behavior can legitimately be classified as an affair is whether or not there's SECRECY regarding the outside involvement. Since secrecy is a critical component of a strong emotional relationship with someone other than your partner, it IS (even without involving "sex") still an affair.

It's been clear to me for many years that it's the "deception" (whether sexual or emotional) that creates the most long-term damage to the trust and the future of the marriage. As I've repeatedly stated, most people recover from the fact that their partner had sex with someone else before they recover from the fact that they were deceived. An affair, in the final analysis, is more about "breaking trust" than about "having sex."

Here are the responses to the following question in an online poll we took on the site a couple of years ago:

"If your partner has had an affair, what was the most difficult to overcome?"

Women's responses:
That they had sex with someone else - 28%
That they deceived me - 72%

Men's responses:
That they had sex with someone else - 30%
That they deceived me - 70%

Emotional affairs are growing and affecting a large number of people, primarily due to more workplace connections and more online connections. Since this is such a significant issue for so many people, I'm posting some information below from one of the Questions I recently responses to on the site—and making it a permanent part of the Articles about Affairs on the website.

What makes it an emotional affair?

It's an emotional affair if�?BR>--I'm keeping the details of my relationship secret from my spouse
--I'm saying and doing things with the other person I wouldn't do with my spouse present
--I'm sharing things with the other person that I don't share with my spouse
--I'm making an effort to arrange to spend time with the other person

Most people who get involved in an "emotional affair..."
--weren't looking for an affair
--didn't INTEND to have an affair
--didn't think they were vulnerable to an affair

Emotional affairs either end or they escalate.

It really doesn't matter whether someone thinks an emotional relationship is totally harmless. The fact is that in most instances emotional affairs are just affairs that have not YET become sexual. They either end or they escalate. So (as with any type affair), it's critical that all one-on-one contact with the third party be severed�?I>before it escalates.

The results of my survey of people who had online affairs indicated:
--79% were NOT seeking an affair
--49% eventually developed into a physical sexual relationship

If there is ongoing interaction with someone with whom you have been very honest in sharing your deepest thoughts and feelings, this can generate a feeling of closeness that stimulates even more sharing—and more closeness, and on and on. Eventually, this relationship can become extremely close and an emotional attachment develops, causing serious damage to the marriage—whether or not it ever becomes "sexual."

For more on this issue, see:
Article in Psychology Today Love, But Don't Touch
Article in Marie Claire The dangerous new infidelity you need to know about
Article in Ladies Homes Journal about Emotional Affairs
Article in USA Today about Emotional Intimacy

From: Grace. (Original Message)

Sent: 9/23/2007 11:51 AM

I am getting so so much better. More well with each passing day.

And after the last 4 years of my life... that is an amazing thing to be able to say.

I'm ok with being divorced.

I love living by myself.
I love being free to "own" my self, and my life.

I am fully aware of all his faults, and his narcissism,

and how being married to him in time only really creates unhappiness.

I know I'm better off without him.

Yet.... I still get caught with 'feelings'....

and the tears come... although, thankfully... not the pain anymore.

And when it happens, my first thought is .. 'I still love him'...

....and then I stop myself with a few specially chosen reality inducing memories...that cut it off.

I have started to ask myself ...

Is it really love I am feeling in the "now"...

or is it just a "memory" in my brain of the love that used to be?

It happened just now... as I came across this photo below on my personal group when I was looking for a photo of another member.... all of a sudden I came across this photo, I saw us... I saw him...it triggered the feelings from when we were a happy family... and the tears started softly flowing...and I started to go down that road... "... I still love him and miss him...." .

And then I put the brakes on.

I think of people who are amputees.... isn't it called ghost feelings when

they think they feel a leg that is not there..?

Could it be that kind of thing...?

I do have lots of wonderful love I'm capable of giving.

And so I very well do have "love" feelings inside me.... however...

There is no reason for me to give it to someone who does not give it in return.

I know that with my head.

My heart, my emotions keeps wanting to go down that old familiar path...

I need something to give them the message that that road is

"Closed.. Dead End...No Longer Travelable"

How do I do that?

This photo was taken at my daugther's birthday party at a restaurant.... I'm standing...in the middle with the sleeveless black top. This was taken maybe 3 years ago.. but amazing, after a variety of hair changes I look just like that now again... except a wonderful 25 pounds thinner. My daughter is seated in front of me...

It still at times hurts that what was "good" is gone... like what I saw here.

The memory that there was not a 'lot' of good... for me personally, helps to pull me out.

How do we get the love out for good?

...even when it may be just a memory.

From: Grace. (Original Message)

Sent: 9/23/2007 10:34 AM

When in the depths of despair and in the throws of excruciating emotional

pain it seems impossible to find something good and positive to focus on.

Yet doing so is the only path of escape from the darkness.

The action of changing our mind, by changing our thoughts,

is the mightiest of weapons at our disposal in our fight to survive.

Let us fight the good fight of faith .... by sharing our good moments, or the little steps of victory we experience. Shine for others the glimmer of light of hope that comes through positive words, and help fight back the negatives with expressions of gratitude for something good in each day.

From: Grace.

Sent: 9/23/2007 10:52 AM

I cooked for myself yesterday.

Nothing fancy....

but it was more than having a plain hot dog on a piece of bread,

or a bowl of cereal, or peanut butter and crackers like has been the norm.

I fixed salmom patties. I cooked.

Or rather... I took time to cook...

I took a little more time to do something good for myself.

Letting myself do that has been the most difficult of my struggles.

I was opening the can of salmon before I even had time to think about it.

And I smiled... and knew... I was a little more healed.

A couple of weeks ago I had bought a box of tuna helper.

It sat on the counter for days....and then got put away into the pantry.

Seeing it triggered some form of resistance in me... a pain, even anger.

It seemed wrong, even bad, to consider making that simple meal.

It's amazing the many layers of "issues" we will peel off....

Facing each one as they come to the surface.

Not having anyone else to focus my attention on, left only me.

And taking care of me... has been a difficult thing to learn to do.

It was always about the husband and the kids first.

I got the left overs of time.. money... space... affection...

Now.. it's just me.

I get it all... from myself.

I've had to learn it's ok for me to get it.

It's ok for me to have it all... and not feel bad or guilty.

I cooked...for myself.

And I smiled.... inside, and out.

I'm going to be ok.

It's ok to do something good for yourself.

1. I am not the only person to blame for what happened, no matter how much I want to make myself think that sometimes.

2. Its ok to accept a compliment from someone with just a thank you, and not have to put myself down while accepting it. (Thanks go to Marj for that one)

3. Its ok to ask for help from others, I cant do everything myself, and I dont need to feel ashamed or guilty for doing so.

4. That there are people out there who truely do care about my wellbeing and that want the best for me in my life.

5. I deserve to be happy in my life, that I cant hide behind being miserable just to protect myself.

6. That I have to face what happened in the past, and deal with my feelings from that.

7. That I am allowed to be angry, and I dont need to beat myself up if that happens towards my ex.

8. That I dont need to be ashamed of who I am or how I look, if people cant accept that, its their problem, not mine.

9. That I need to care about myself and not always put others first, and consider their feelings as more important then mine.

10. Finally, that this whole thing is a path I need to follow, and I cant give up, no matter how hard it gets, as with time things will work out.

Just some rambling thoughts from me.

Brett

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