MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
Betwixt the Sea and Sky[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Messages and Momentos  
  General  
  Discussions  
  Fun & Games  
  World Care  
  Pictures  
  The Gallery  
  ï¿½?Fetch �?/A>  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Treasure Box  
  Bards Bench  
  Sound Waves  
  Inspirations  
  Prayers & Wishes  
  Family Life  
  Smiles  
  Kith & Kin  
  Bards Bench  
  Workshop  
  Recipe & Remedy  
  Documents  
  Betwixt's Own  
  Betwixt's Pick  
  Bars and Banners  
  Backgrounds  
  Gifts  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Kith & Kin  
  Parenting Links  
  Well Wishes  
  Amber Alert  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Wheel of the Year  
  Metals  
  Tree Magic  
  Stones & Gems  
  Animal Lore  
  The Winds  
  Earth Energy  
  Moon Phases  
  Red Hill Valley  
  Kids Stuff  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Library  
  The Bookstand  
  Study Hall  
  Tales & Legends  
  Pathways  
  The Occult  
  Pagan Nomads Dictionary  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Nature's Realm  
  Herbal Applications  
  Herbal Safety  
  Witches Pharmacopoeia  
  Wild Herbs  
  The Healers Nook  
  Weed Wanderings  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Common Ground  
  Religion ~ Timeline  
  Golden Rules  
  Religion of Magic  
  Emergence  
  Eco~Spirituality  
  Pantheism  
  Sacred Shapes  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Chakras  
  Meditation  
  Auras  
  Colour  
  Astral  
  Past Lives  
  Life Forces  
  Reiki  
  Labyrinths  
  Stuff of Dreams  
  Dream Time  
  Lucid Dreams  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Covenant of Peace  
  Desiderata  
  The 3 Worlds  
  The Red Road  
  Yin Yang  
  Warrior's Path  
  Chivalry  
  Brehon Law  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Spirit Realm  
  Apparitions  
  Things that go Bump  
  Haunted  
  Mirror ~ Mirror  
  Spiral Staircase  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Divination  
  Rune Lore  
  Numerology  
  A few last words...  
  ï¿½?± �?± �?± �?/A>  
  Community Posts  
  Phoenix  
  Re R.Phx  
  Hawk's Own  
  Mah Jongg  
  Badger's  
  Wanduring's  
  Nymph's  
  Fernmeadow's  
  Sidhabhair's  
  
  
  Tools  
 
Discussions : The Declaration of Independence
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
 Message 1 of 8 in Discussion 
From: Wanduring  (Original Message)Sent: 12/1/2004 12:22 AM
Declaration of Independence
July 4, 1776

          The Unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united* States of America.

          When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

          We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive to these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shown that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present King of Great- Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.

          HE has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good.

          HE has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

          HE has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People, unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a Right inestimable to them and formidable to Tyrants only.

          HE has called together Legislative Bodies at Places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the Depository of their public Records, for the sole Purpose of fatiguing them into Compliance with his Measures.

          HE has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly Firmness his Invasions on the Rights of the People.

          HE has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the meantime exposed to all the Dangers of Invasion from without, and the Convulsions within.

          HE has endeavored to prevent the Population of these States; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migration hither, and raising the Conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

          HE has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

          HE has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries.

          HE has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their Substance.

          HE has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our Legislature.

          HE has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to Civil Power.

          HE has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

          FOR quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us:

          FOR protecting them, by mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

          FOR cutting off our Trade with all Parts of the World:

          FOR imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

          FOR depriving us in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury:

          FOR transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended Offences:

          FOR abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighboring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary Government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same absolute Rule into these Colonies:

          FOR taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

          FOR suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all Cases whatsoever.

          HE has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

          HE has plundered our Seas, ravaged our Coasts, burned our Towns, and destroyed the Lives of our People.

          HE is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized Nation.

          HE has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the Executioners of their Friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

          HE has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the Inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is undistinguished Destruction of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions.

          IN every stage of these Oppressions we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People.

          NOR have we been wanting in Attentions to our British Brethren. We have warned them from Time to Time of attempts by their Legislature to extend an unwarrantable Jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the Circumstances of our Emigration and Settlement here. We have appealed to their native Justice and Magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the Ties of our common Kindred to disavow these Usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our Connections and Correspondence. They too have been deaf to the Voice of Justice and Consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends.

          WE, therefore, the Representatives of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly Publish and Declare, that these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT STATES may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

  • New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

  • Massachusetts: John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

  • Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

  • Connecticut: Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

  • New York: William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

  • New Jersey: Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

  • Pennsylvania: Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

  • Delaware: Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

  • Maryland: Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

  • Virginia: George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

  • North Carolina: William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

  • South Carolina: Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

  • Georgia: Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton.


First  Previous  2-8 of 8  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 8 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 12/1/2004 1:12 AM
  Something I have been thinking about of late...the content within the declaration of independence...and how that it is just as applicable today as it was then...and the various similarities between what was pressing points back then compared to pressing points of today's dissatisfaction with the current regime. Also, whether or not our founding fathers would be rolling over in their graves at what has come to pass within the last century or so.  It is interesting that alot of the very things that our founding fathers were upset about are the very things today that we are complaining about...if varying a wee bit.
  Take the line, "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shown that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security." If you think about one technique for breaking a horse, first you bring the riding gear into the corral with the horse...to get it used to it...then putting on various articles you allow the horse to become accustomed to the equiptment of it's enslavement...so that once it is acclimated to the gear...you can hop on and break it.  Has this been done?  Are we currently seeing various laws and requirements getting handed out that will later on subjugate us? I would tend to say yes...call it paranoia or whatnot...but with the institution of things of late <patriot act, homeland security etc etc being examples> we are allowing ourselves to become acclimated to loss of liberties.  Or how about national guard weapons implacements during protests, corralling of individuals, military personnel within airports bearing weapons unsuited and overcompensated for that sort of work...you can go on for hours about these things that are an EVERYDAY occurance...but totally unknown 10 years ago.  Sure times have changed...but one does wonder.  Sorta like that frog or salamader that you toss in a pot of water then slowly bring it to a boil...it never notices the tempature change until it is too late. 
  So my question is this...where are the bright-minded, serious individuals within our country that are needed to be the catalyst for change as were our founding fathers?  Or are we so far gone within our boiling pot of water that we don't care to make that personal sacrifice necessary to change the current system?  If you look at the history, it was a wide split between don't care, wanna stay with, wanna seperate peoples back then.  Same as with today, but the problem with today is this..pacifism is seen as a way of life...rather than a pathway to enslavement and death.  Which isn't to say we should all be blood-thirsty murdering hordes desiring nothing less than the executions of the current regime...but rather that taking inactive, passive means gain you nothing.  
   What is an inactive passive means for change? One would be peaceful protest.  No one cares about sign-toting people chanting slogans, or will take them seriously...why? because it does nothing but state the current feelings that are already known.  Now with a lie-down or similiar things that causes economic or civil distress, it makes a much better statement.  Of course, once you do something like that which is considered somewhat extreme, off to the pokey with you for being a disturbance or what not...funny how that works...one of the most powerful forms of active peaceful protest is stolen away by the very laws created to protect our freedoms. Not to mention that is is very hard to find many people with the intestinal fortitude to show a little personal sacrifice in the name of causes and change.  So the few that do take it to that point, change nothing, because of the cowardice or unwillingness to sacrifice self for the greater cause.  Usually because of rationalizing that they have bigger responsibilities that prevent them from doing these things...ie family, kids, job..etc etc...How many of the founding fathers had families or responsibilities that in this day and age many would use as an excuse?  Most of them...John Adams had a wife and kids...and guess what...while he was fomenting rebellion, she was off gathering saltpeter for gunpowder...Either were a death sentece or imprisonment.  We love to sit around and say, "we are enlightened, we have found a better way to illicit change"...guess what...you aren't and you haven't...what great change has our new way of protesting changed? Nothing, and our government grows more powerful.  It is sad to see how the valor and courage of our people has deterioated into fear and smugness.  Anyhow, i am just as much to blame as everyone else...but the lack of belief and concern is overwhelming...how can you martyr yourself when few people will even pay attention for any other reason but for entertainment?  My challenge to you is this...read through the Declaration of Independence, see for yourself what was considered to be a worthy cause to sacrifice yourself for, and decide whether or not the challenge and sacrifice is worthy...
 
 
 

Reply
 Message 3 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameimbas1Sent: 12/1/2004 1:51 PM

From http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=266

"Unlike many modern revolutions, the American Revolution was not rooted in economic deprivation or in the struggle of an oppressed class against an entrenched elite. But this does not mean that the colonists did not suffer from serious grievances.

The Revolution was the product of 40 years of abuses by the British authorities that many colonists regarded as a threat to their liberty and property. But people do not act simply in response to objective reality but according to the meaning that they give to events. The Revolution resulted from the way the colonists interpreted events.

The American patriots were alarmed by what they saw as a conspiracy against their liberty. They feared that the corruption and the abuses of power by the British government would taint their own society. And, further, they were troubled by the knowledge that they had no say over a government three thousand miles away. "

It seems that everytime, some vote doesn't go one way or another, someone brings out the documents of 300 years ago. Ah, those bright eyed innocent days of long ago.....What else was around in 1776? Well slaves in all 13 colonies made up 40% of the population.  Yea, I guess that threat to liberty was somewhat narrowly interpreted...Oh, and that population, pretty small, about 1.6 million. Yea, that's about the popluation of Boston alone today. Sitting around the tavern, sipping Sam Adams brew of the day, I imagine it was a lot easier to think about revolt against a country that would have to ship in their army 200 at a time, with muskets. Yes, times have changed, radically.

Whether individuals want to admit it or see it, Americans on the whole are very satisfied with their government. And the vast majority are satisfied with their day to day existence. The threats to liberties that some see, are thought of as the return of normal morals to the masses. Liberty is quite different from Anarchy. Even the colonials, had social rules that were simply not tolerated to be broken.

The recently past election highlighted that. Sure Kerry had a lot of votes, not enough to win, but almost. But what would have changed had Kerry won. Possible minor changes to the environmental laws, possible minor changes to the world diplomatic approach. But these changes would be minor, very, very minor. The massive bulk of the people very obviously are not all that unhappy. The big news report of the day is that a few women are upset that their breasts were touched during an airport security check (exposing even today the puritanical influence in the states), then they go on their flight, go on their business trips, vacations, go home in their Saabs, unlock the 3 bedroom colonial in the suburbs, get on their wireless phone or computer, call their lawyer and complain. Ironic.

Do these people have any concept of what goes on, day to day, in most of the world?

No there will be no revolution here, none. And the reason is it simply isn't that bad to 99% of the people. Hard times to most people is having to wait 10 seconds for dial up internet to log on. Hard times is bitch'n about the gas going up 20 cents, while driving a HumVee and paying 5$ for a latte at Starbucks and paying 6$, 3 times a day for a pack of cigarettes. These are the people you think are going to revolt??

 


Reply
 Message 4 of 8 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 12/2/2004 12:49 AM
This is where you are mistaken...the American revolution was NOT done by 99 percent of the population, in fact... in the beginning throws of the whole revolution the majority of the population didn't care or thought those that were wanting revolution were troublemakers making things worse for everyone. Even after the revolutionary war there were alot of people who didn't want to be a part of the united states...most of them moving to canada...which...started the war of 1812 when the US invaded canada.  Yes, the revolutionary war WAS not a gloruis war of good versus evil.  But then no war is.  The catalysts that started the moving towards seperation at first did not even want to leave the british empire...just to have the governing body change its policy...by the time the colonies decided AS A WHOLE to secede...the revolutionary war was already being fought and had been being fought for years.  It was a close thing that the colonies decided upon the venture they went on...mainly through the labors of thomas jefferson, ben franklin and john adams amoung others.  You say hard times is bitching about gas prices going up 20 cents...hard times was the tea tax amoung other things.  WHICH was really big business strangling the economy of the colonies.  No different than the oil companies or energy companies WHICH are part of our lovely government.  The parrallels are there...you don't even have to try real hard to see them.  The difference is the catalysts we had then as compared to now.  Look at the boston massacre, the boston tea party, and various other items branded in the history of the revolution...Those individuals then as they would now were considered troublemakers and now they would have been branded terrorists.  You can go on and on about the various things within our country within the past 10 years that ae jsut horrific by any standards..enron, haliburton, iraq, patriot act, tyco...the list goes on and on and on...all of which DIRECTLY affects us...but as stated in the declaration people are willing to suffer these evils...why? because people are inherently lazy...the extremists are what evict change...and if the people within america delay forceful action to illicit change within their government, there are those outside that WILL make that change for them...and not necessarily for the better.  It is a far better thing that WE make that change.  I just love how dismissive people can get about things of this nature.  The internet would be a parrellel to the newspapers of the time which some of the catalysts used as a medium to get the word out..in this day and age the press cannot be trusted to even print anti-government things for fear of repurcussions...anyhow it is not the rich that will revolt...as always it will be the poor and oppressed...jsut hope it doesn't go like most of the revolutions of this century with the various genocides that tend to take place...

Reply
 Message 5 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameimbas1Sent: 12/2/2004 1:53 AM
Nope, not going to happen. The poor and oppressed? Right. All the poor and oppressed are worried about is getting the government handouts so they can get the next meal, next on the list, getting some dope wheels and a little bling bling. You are right. The percentage wasn't 99%. But it was a lot more than the percentage today that would revolt, or that could be contained to burning down their own neighborhoods. Dade County, Los Angeles, Chicago.Been tried, didn't work, ain't gonna do it again.  People riot today for one of two reasons; their team won or their team lost. That's about it. And the rest, watch it on TV, yawn, and go back to making their lunch. Maybe a few are lazy. Most however, just don't agree with you, believe this is the best country on earth, believe God and Country are synonomous, and basically don't agree there's anything at all wrong with it.
 
Change, if change occurs, will occur very slowly, over decades and lifetimes. The likelyhood of some grand revolution is so remote as to be ridiculous.
 
But I have a bigger question.
 
Has Betwixt now become a political discussion site? Seems like it to me. The election's over, there's plenty of things people can do to get involved, as there was before the election. How about some on-topic discussions?

Reply
 Message 6 of 8 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 12/2/2004 2:03 AM
tell that to the chinese, russians, germany,etc etc etc...when it happens it occurs rapidly...Riots are not revolutions...the poor and downtrodden in china were the ones wielding the swords during thier little revolution...who were the viet cong btw?
  This has nothing to do with the elections.. and many things within betwixted ARE politically based...

Reply
The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations  Message 7 of 8 in Discussion 
Sent: 12/2/2004 4:55 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.

Reply
 Message 8 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«Sent: 12/2/2004 4:59 AM
 
Gentlemen.... I'd like to direct your attention to a change or two that has been decided by management. Please take the time to read this thread before considering venturing into political combat.
 
Thank You
 


First  Previous  2-8 of 8  Next  Last 
Return to Discussions