MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
Betwixt the Sea and Sky[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Messages and Momentos  
  General  
  Discussions  
  Fun & Games  
  World Care  
  Pictures  
  The Gallery  
  ï¿½?Fetch �?/A>  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Treasure Box  
  Bards Bench  
  Sound Waves  
  Inspirations  
  Prayers & Wishes  
  Family Life  
  Smiles  
  Kith & Kin  
  Bards Bench  
  Workshop  
  Recipe & Remedy  
  Documents  
  Betwixt's Own  
  Betwixt's Pick  
  Bars and Banners  
  Backgrounds  
  Gifts  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Kith & Kin  
  Parenting Links  
  Well Wishes  
  Amber Alert  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Wheel of the Year  
  Metals  
  Tree Magic  
  Stones & Gems  
  Animal Lore  
  The Winds  
  Earth Energy  
  Moon Phases  
  Red Hill Valley  
  Kids Stuff  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Library  
  The Bookstand  
  Study Hall  
  Tales & Legends  
  Pathways  
  The Occult  
  Pagan Nomads Dictionary  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Nature's Realm  
  Herbal Applications  
  Herbal Safety  
  Witches Pharmacopoeia  
  Wild Herbs  
  The Healers Nook  
  Weed Wanderings  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Common Ground  
  Religion ~ Timeline  
  Golden Rules  
  Religion of Magic  
  Emergence  
  Eco~Spirituality  
  Pantheism  
  Sacred Shapes  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Chakras  
  Meditation  
  Auras  
  Colour  
  Astral  
  Past Lives  
  Life Forces  
  Reiki  
  Labyrinths  
  Stuff of Dreams  
  Dream Time  
  Lucid Dreams  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Covenant of Peace  
  Desiderata  
  The 3 Worlds  
  The Red Road  
  Yin Yang  
  Warrior's Path  
  Chivalry  
  Brehon Law  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Spirit Realm  
  Apparitions  
  Things that go Bump  
  Haunted  
  Mirror ~ Mirror  
  Spiral Staircase  
  â˜¼â‚ª �?�?�?�?�?/A>  
  Divination  
  Rune Lore  
  Numerology  
  A few last words...  
  ï¿½?± �?± �?± �?/A>  
  Community Posts  
  Phoenix  
  Re R.Phx  
  Hawk's Own  
  Mah Jongg  
  Badger's  
  Wanduring's  
  Nymph's  
  Fernmeadow's  
  Sidhabhair's  
  
  
  Tools  
 
Discussions : The Ethics Of Love Spells
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
 Message 1 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«  (Original Message)Sent: 2/14/2005 5:00 PM

 The Ethics Of Love Spells

To gain the love of someone: On a night of the full moon, walk to a spot beneath your beloved's bedroom window, and whisper his/her name three times to the nightwind.
--Ozark love spell

     It seems to be an immutable law of nature. You are interviewed by a local radio or TV station, or in some local newspaper. The topic of the interview is Witchcraft or Paganism, and you spend the better part of an hour brilliantly articulating your beliefs, your devotion to Goddess and nature, the difference between Witchcraft and Satanism, and generally enlightening the public at large. The next day, you are flooded with calls. Is it people complimenting you on such a splendid interview? No. People wanting to find out more about the religion of Wicca? Huh-uh. People who are even vaguely interested in what you had to say??? Nope. Who is it? It's people asking you to do a love spell for them!

     This used to drive me nuts. I'd take a deep breath and patiently explain (for the thousandth time) why I won't even do love spells for myself, let alone anyone else. This generally resulted in my caller becoming either angry or defensive, but seldom more enlightened. 'But don't you DO magic?', they ask. 'Only occasionally,' I answer. 'And aren't most magic spells love spells?', they persist. That was the line I really hated, because I knew they were right! At least, if you look at the table of contents of most books on magic, you'll find more love spells than any other kind. This seems as true for the medieval grimoire as for the modern drugstore paperback.

    Why? Why so many books containing so many love spells? Why such an emphasis on a kind of magic that I, personally, have always considered very negative? And to make matters even more confusing, the books that do take the trouble of dividing spells between 'positve' and 'negative' magic invariably list love spells under the first heading. After all, they would argue, love is a good thing. There can never be too much of it. Therefore, any spell that brings about love must be a GOOD spell. Never mind that the spell puts a straightjacket on another's free will, and then drops it in cement for good measure.

     And that is why I had always assumed love magic to be negative magic. Years ago, one of the first things I learned as a novice Witch was something called the Witch's Rede, a kind of 'golden rule' in traditional Witchcraft. It states, 'An it harm none, do what thou will.' One uses this rede as a kind of ethical litmus test for a spell. If the spell brings harm to someone -- anyone (including yourself!) -- then don't do it! Unfortunately, this rule contains a loophole big enough to fly a broom through. It's commonly expressed, 'Oh, this won't HARM them; it's really for their own good.' When you hear someone say that, take cover, because something especially nasty is about to happen.

     That's why I had to develop my own version of the Witch's Rede. Mine says that if a spell harms anyone, OR LIMITS THEIR FREEDOM OF THOUGHT OR ACTION IN ANY WAY, then consider it negative, and don't do it. Pretty strict, you say? Perhaps. But there's another law in Witchcraft called the Law of Threefold Return. This says that whatever power you send out, eventually comes back to you three times more powerful. So I take no chances. And love spells, of the typical make-Bobby-love-me type, definitely have an impact on another's free will.

     So why are they so common? It's taken me years to make peace with this, but I think I finally understand. The plain truth is that most of us NEED love. Without it, our lives are empty and miserable. After our basic survival needs have been met, we must have affection and companionship for a full life. And if it will not come of its own accord, some of us may be tempted to FORCE it to come. And nothing can be as painful as loving someone who doesn't love you back. Consequently, the most common, garden-variety spell in the world is the love spell.

     Is there ever a way to do a love spell and yet stay within the parameters of the Witch's Rede? Possibly. Some teachers have argued that if a spell doesn't attempt to attract a SPECIFIC person into your life, but rather attempts to attract the RIGHT person, whomever that may be, then it is not negative magic. Even so, one should make sure that the spell finds people who are 'right' for each other -- so that neither is harmed, and both are made happy.

     Is there ever an excuse for the make-Bobby-love-me type of spell? Without endorsing this viewpoint, I must admit that the most cogent argument in its favor is the following: Whenever you fall in love with someone, you do everything in your power to impress them. You dress nicer, are more attentive, witty, and charming. And at the same time, you unconsciously set in motion some very powerful psychic forces. If you've ever walked into a room where someone has a crush on you, you know what I mean. You can FEEL it. Proponents of this school say that a love spell only takes the forces that are ALREADY there -- MUST be there if you're in love -- and channels them more efficiently.

    But the energy would be there just the same, whether or not you use a spell to focus it.

     I won't attempt to decide this one for you. People must arrive at their own set of ethics through their own considerations. However, I would call to your attention all the cautionary tales in folk magic about love spells gone awry. Also, if a love spell has been employed to join two people who are not naturally compatible, then one must keep pumping energy into the spell. And when one finally tires of this (and one will, because it is hard work!) then the spell will unravel amidst an emotional and psychic hurricane that will make the stormiest divorces seem calm by comparison. Not a pretty picture.

     It should be noted that many spells that pass themselves off as love spells are, in reality, sex spells. Not that there's anything surprising in that, since our most basic needs usually include sex. But I think we should be clear from the outset what kind of spell it is. And the same ethical standards used for love spells can often be applied to sex spells. Last year, the very quotable Isaac Bonewits, author of 'Real Magic', taught a sex magic class here at the Magick Lantern, and he tossed out the following rule of thumb: Decide what the mundane equivalent of your spell would be, and ask yourself if you could be arrested for it. For example, some spells are like sending a letter to your beloved in the mail, whereas other spells are tantamount to abduction. The former is perfectly legal and normal, whereas the latter is felonious.

     One mitigating factor in your decisions may be the particular tradition of magic you follow. For example, I've often noticed that practitioners of Voudoun (Voodoo) and Santeria seem much more focused on the wants and needs of day-to-day living than on the abstruse ethical considerations we've been examining here. That's not a value judgement -- just an observation. For example, most followers of Wicca STILL don't know how to react when a Santerian priest spills the blood of a chicken during a ritual -- other than to feel pretty queasy. The ethics of one culture is not always the same as another.

     And speaking of cultural traditions, another consideration is how a culture views love and sex. It has often been pointed out that in our predominant culture, love and sex are seen in very possessive terms, where the beloved is regarded as one's personal property. If the spell uses this approach, treating a person as an object, jealously attempting to cut off all other relationships, then the ethics are seriously in doubt. However, if the spell takes a more open approach to love and sex, not attempting to limit a person's other relationships in any way, then perhaps it is more defensible. Perhaps. Still, it might be wise to ask, Is this the kind of spell I'd want someone to cast on me?

     Love spells. Whether to do them or not. If you are a practitioner of magic, I dare say you will one day be faced with the choice. If you haven't yet, it is only a matter of time. And if the answer is yes, then which spells are ethical and which aren't? Then you, and only you, will have to decide whether 'All's fair in love and war', or whether there are other, higher, metaphysical considerations

  
Copyright © 1988, 1998 by Mike Nichols

This document can be re-published only as long as no information is lost or changed, credit is given to the author, and it is provided or used without cost to others.



First  Previous  2-11 of 11  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«Sent: 2/14/2005 5:10 PM
Ahhh.... how could I resist something like this today? Love spells ... what do you tthink? Do they work? why would they? ... law of contagion, perhaps? cause for pyschological evaluation instead?
 
I like this ... kinda gave me a bit of chuckle... "the very quotable Isaac Bonewits, author of 'Real Magic', taught a sex magic class here at the Magick Lantern, and he tossed out the following rule of thumb: Decide what the mundane equivalent of your spell would be, and ask yourself if you could be arrested for it. For example, some spells are like sending a letter to your beloved in the mail, whereas other spells are tantamount to abduction. The former is perfectly legal and normal, whereas the latter is felonious. "
 
Soooo.... any thoughts on this most often maligned and slightly confusing aspect of witchcraft?
 

 

Reply
 Message 3 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameimbas1Sent: 2/14/2005 5:17 PM
This one's pretty easy. Wicca is a pagan religion of sorts. But it is not the only pagan religion. If you're Wiccan and someone asks for a magic spell that Wicca doesn't allow, simply say so and be done with it.
 
Then send them my way. I don't believe in the Wiccan rede or their silly 3-fold "law".  Laws were made to be broken. And I rarely drive the speed limit either.   Oh, if my love spell doesn't work, I'd suggest upgrading to a deluxe version, (of course, there's a cost), you may need regular love spells to work through, (you have mastercard or visa right?) Sign up for my weekly plan! I guarantee that something will happen.......eventually......
 
 

Reply
 Message 4 of 11 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 2/14/2005 10:06 PM
"At the present day, occult sciences are scarcely studied except by presumptuous ignoramuses or eccentric savants; women furnish their necessary ground, in hysterical crisps and doubtful somnambulism. People want above all things prodigies; to cog the dice of Fortune, to shuffle the cards of Fate, to have philtres and amulets, to bewitch their enemies, to put jealous husbands to sleep, to discover the universal panacea of all the vices, not to reform them, but to preserve them from the two great diseases that kill them--deception and lassitude--countenance such schemes, and one is sure to travel quickly on the high road of folly. If the hasty Achilles of Homer had been wholly invulnerable, he would only have been a cowardly assassin, and the man who was sure of always gaining at play would soon ruin every one, and ought to be branded as a swindler. He who by a single act of his Will could entail on others sickness or death, would be a public Pest, of whom Society ought to rid itself; to win love, save by natural means, is to commit a sort of violation; to evoke shades is to call down upon oneself the Eternal Shadows.  To deal with demons one must be a demon. The Devil is the spirit of Evil, the fatal current of misdirected and evil wills. To enter this current is to plunge into the abyss. Moreover the Spirit of Evil only replies to rash and unhealthy curiosity. Visions are the phenomena of drunkenness or delirium. To see spirits? What a chimera! It is as though one professed to touch music and bottle thought. If the spirits of the dead have gone out from amongst us, it is because they could no longer live here. How do you suppose they are to come back?  But then it will be said, what can be the use of magic? It enables men to understand better the Truth, and desire Good in a healthier and more effective manner. It helps to heal souls and comfort bodies. It does not confer the means of doing evil with impunity, but it raises man above animal lusts. It renders man inaccessible to the agonies of desire and fear. It constitutes a divinely radiating centre, chasing away before it phantoms and darkness, for it knows, it wills, it CAN, and it holds its peace. This is the true magic, not that of the Necromancers and Enchanters, but that of the initiated and the Magi.  True magic is a scientific force placed at the service of Reason. False magic is a blind force added to the blunders and disorders of Folly." ( from "Paradoxes of the Highest Science" by Eliphas Levi..."Paradox V.-Reason is God")
 
  Personally, I agree with this passage most definately about the uses of magic and it's purpose.  It should be used to bring you closer to your personal divinity, rather than used as a tool to get what you want.  People tend to like to chase down shortcuts rather than looking within and fixing themselves.  Which is what I think chasing love spells and suchlike really is.  Rather than taking the time to develop the necessary skills.  Do you need a love spell?  Can you not develop the skills necessary to fend for yourself? Anyhow I think anyone thinking about messing with magic should read Eliphas Levi's book "Paradoxes of the Highest Science" because it touches on many subjects like this.  Of course you can agree or disagree, is up to you, but I find it to be the best bit of information on magic as a whole.  You can find the book at http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/levi/phs/index.htm . Well worth the read.

 


Reply
 Message 5 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«Sent: 2/15/2005 3:10 AM
While an interesting read, its a rather harsh rending of magic and its uses, it reeks of disdain and withering contempt for the homier side of magic ... its small uses and values (lets leave aside the twits that hope to use it for fame and fortune) its beauty and presence in everyday. According to the author it is drivel until given into the hands of men and the light of truth... it is taken from the everyday and given onto the scholars as the only ones worthy of it. This a shame and a stance I have long fought against ... magic does belong in the everyday life as opposed to some dusty old tome set aside for a hidden elitest group. The necromancers he speaks of are the mediums and spiritualist reaching beyound the human veil, using a gift that is a human birth right, one that many of us have come to accept. And the enchanters?... well are these simply not the hearth healers, the bards and the alchemists? a rank for those that would change the world for a better place. Its no small surprise that I believe in magic and would also manipulate it if need be, but it is the magic of the world, of science, of belief of creating changes with my will and skill, and sometimes it is magic that comes from something greater then I am ... I don't scoff at it nor belittle it for the fact that a young wife would hope to use it a surely as a high ranking lodge-certified ceremonialist would. ANYways ...
 
As for the 3 fold law... its something I've run around my head a few times over the years. In fact we have a discussion on it in here and I've discussed it over many coffees with pagans that credit it and those that don't. I believe that if your going to believe in 3 fold return you had best choice your actions wisely or cover your hinny really well, lol If you don't believe in it then I suggest you keep your eyes open anyways, because things do have a way of coming back around for balance.
 
As for love spells... seriously. I think they are a no-no and are doomed from conception. I don't abide with messing with others free-will in such a manner. And if I or someone else thought they just had to have one no matter what then I think a trip to the doctor is order, because there is more wrong then being lovelorn or lonely. Anyone who would consider it okay to subvert another's will or choice through the use of magic, herbs or otherwise for self serving purposes is a tad twisted and needs help.

 
 
 

Reply
 Message 6 of 11 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 2/15/2005 4:09 AM
I think I will have to debate this with you a bit.
 
<While an interesting read, its a rather harsh rending of magic and its uses, it reeks of disdain and withering contempt for the homier side of magic .>
 
It isn't a harsh rending of magic and it's uses.  It is a harsh rending of Magic Users.  More to the point, those that would use it for selfish reasons without seeking the whys and wherefores of it.  If you look at the examples it shows, it is indeed making a statement against the use of magic for selfish gain.
 
<According to the author it is drivel until given into the hands of men and the light of truth... it is taken from the everyday and given onto the scholars as the only ones worthy of it.>
 
  How does it say that?  It is making a statement about the period.  And states the Author's view on what magic is for rather than satifying personal desire.  "But then it will be said, what can be the use of magic? It enables men to understand better the Truth, and desire Good in a healthier and more effective manner." 
 
<This a shame and a stance I have long fought against ... magic does belong in the everyday life as opposed to some dusty old tome set aside for a hidden elitest group. >
 
Magic is in everyday life you see it when the sun rises, the wind blows, and the water whispering.  If anything it implies that you should look deeper into the world...as for elitist groups and dusty tomes...The very first statement, "At the present day, occult sciences are scarcely studied except by presumptuous ignoramuses or eccentric savants;" Think about the period of time this was written.  Who was he speaking of?
 
<The necromancers he speaks of are the mediums and spiritualist reaching beyound the human veil, using a gift that is a human birth right, one that many of us have come to accept.>
 
  Is it a human birthright?  So is the ability to do alot of things...because you can do something, does that mean you should?  More specifically, should you chase after something you haven't took a long deep look at?  Should you give a child a loaded handgun to play with?  Throughout the ages a great many cultures have stated the same warnings he states about the dangers of evoking spirits...Do we know more about the subject than those that have gone on before?  Is it something to be treated lightly, without considering the dangers and the mechanisms behind various things?  Or should we accept on blind faiththat these are our birthrights and as birthrights there is no danger in it?
 
<Its no small surprise that I believe in magic and would also manipulate it if need be, but it is the magic of the world, of science, of belief of creating changes with my will and skill, and sometimes it is magic that comes from something greater then I am ... >
 
Sorta exactly the same thing I see in that excerpt...and agree with you completely.
 
<  I don't scoff at it nor belittle it for the fact that a young wife would hope to use it a surely as a high ranking lodge-certified ceremonialist would. ANYways ...>
 
Yep...agreed...
 
 
 
 

Reply
 Message 7 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameÇâlâís•ÑøxSent: 2/15/2005 4:37 AM
I used to co-run a public chat room on MSN--before it became a pay service. For any who used to frequent Pagan chat on MSN, it won't come as a suprise that love spell discussions were frequently brought into chat by newbies or trolls looking for a fight. It grew tiresome and we eventually developed the automated response for all the "Hi, I'm new to Wicca and want to learn how to do a love spell" people--manipulating the free will of another is wrong and will fall back negatively upon you. If you seek love in your life then "spells" can be done to invite it. If it was someone trying to bait us and cause dissent, I would simply suggest they carry a rose quartz, give a long and windy explanation on the properties of the stone and change the subject. It was entertaining for an over-worked host.
 
When faced with the subject now, after a long hiatus from the stresses of chat, I find myself still feeling the same. Do love spells work? I don't know. I've never done one. Why would they work? Because the will of the spellweaver was tightly focused and stronger than the will of the target person--same as any other spell involving an attack.
 
I believe that a love spell is an attack...the same as attempting to cord someone or tear the aura, infect the chakras or twist the inner sight. I don't follow a rede or believe in any "Law of Three". I do think that what comes around goes around. It may not happen in this life but eventually everything evens out. I also think that "instant karma", if it happens, is frequently a result of guilt.
 
All this said I think that love spells are wrong. I would never do one or reccomend another do one.
 
I admit that through my life, I have had my heart broken and experienced a level of loss and pain that most would describe as clinical and worthy or medication or "help". I've missed people so much that I truly layed in bed for weeks willing myself to die. I have been as black and broken as any human can be. I have never considered performing a love spell. I admit that my main reason for not doing so was not some lofty and humane goal of free-will. Rather, I wouldn't want love that wasn't freely given. It isn't real. I have learned since then and I know, more than ever now how important free will is. I know that there are Pagans out there who do thhese spells but I find them to be distasteful and reprehensible. If I can suffer at the hands of love as I have and not take that poisoned path then ther is no excuse for any one.
 
That's my opinion and it is not one that will be lightly changed.
 
 

Reply
 Message 8 of 11 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 2/15/2005 4:41 AM
Well said Nox...VERY well said!!!

Reply
 Message 9 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameimbas1Sent: 2/15/2005 2:24 PM
Well, like I said, send them my way....
 
You see, I don't believe in 'love spells'. I don't believe they exist, or ever existed. I do believe that when the midwife, or herbalist out on the fringes of the village, who sold herbal medicines, and gave advice to those who came to her (later called the witch), was approached by foolish lovesick puppies, with a bit of coin in their pocket, she made up a "spell and ritual" to seperate fool from coin.
 
And I think now, people take a lot of things way more seriously than they should. So if some sap comes along with coin, I'll be more than happy to follow the proud traditions of my great great grand mums..........

Reply
 Message 10 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname»®ed«·»Ph¤enïX«Sent: 2/15/2005 2:39 PM
Always the purpose of Betwixt is to learn and discuss things... through the diversity of our beliefs it is a natural thing that we will view things differently. We have differing views on magic and a few other things, that sometimes require us to step back and review our reactions.
 
One of these things is this excerpt.  You understand the piece having come at it through the book and the authors perceptions, I however understand it as I read it here. Simple. And I stand by my opinion of it. I had already stated that I was not talking about the "twits that hope to use it for fame and fortune" but in fact its everyday appeal. We are human and we perceive magic having its uses.... from the sacred and profane to the everyday kitchen witchery. Having read the passage over multiple times I still dislike the tone of it, it still smacks of elitism. I did not follow the link to find out the date or era that the author speaks of in the reference of presumptuous ignoramuses or eccentric savants, I know only that the language used bothers me, and I find the whole thing dismissive. In fact the only thing I find agreeable is the passage "True magic is a scientific force placed at the service of Reason. False magic is a blind force added to the blunders and disorders of Folly"
 
I have often said and will continue to adhere to this ... "mediums and spiritualist reaching beyound the human veil, using a gift that is a human birth right, one that many of us have come to accept"  Yes I do believe its a birthright. The human psyche has huge potential that niether of us can cap, but I do firmly believe that mankind as a species has hidden or supressed gifts that reach beyond the level of simple matter, we CAN perceive other worlds and states. Why should we not learn to use it? The analogy of giving a gun to a child is not very relevant in this dialogue, it simply creates fear where there doesn't have to be with a knee-jerk reaction. As far as it being dangerous to explore this birthright, my only answer to that is from a parents perspective... there is danger in everything. To deny your senses because you might see, hear or think something that could harm you is hardly the way of growth. As for chasing after it? yes... I think one should do exactly that, it took thousands of years of fear, religious dogma and social breeding to to subvert parts of our humanity. We are coming to an age where anyone from teen witch to venerated scholar can seek to unlock the potential they have within and explore the unusual gifts we each bring to the table. And while orthodox religions are still very uncomfortable with mediums and spiritualists, science has turned an eye on those same gifts and seeks to understand it with various levels of success.
 
I believe that if we can get past a future of self-annihilation (both as a species and individual) then those same gifts I spoke off can help unlock the secrets hidden within humanity. Granted not everyone can do magic nor does everyone believe in it, but the sun does not need my belief to rise each day, it simply is ... much like the energy that I call magic.... and is there ready to provide one of many avenues towards self realization.
 
ANYways, enough rambling on that vein...
 
Nox I agree whole-heartedly with your post ... and yeah, I remember those chatters...boy were they a pain in the ass, it was often a futile exercise talking to some of them. Usually I just left them up to Badger to deal with, he was so much kinder, lol
 
Have a great day, everyone



Reply
 Message 11 of 11 in Discussion 
From: WanduringSent: 2/16/2005 3:07 AM

First  Previous  2-11 of 11  Next  Last 
Return to Discussions