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I have had a long interest in Shamanism, particularly the ones of South American and other isolated areas... One of the things I come across often in my studies in the use of psycedelics such as Ayahuasca, Peyote, Guayusa and other consciousness altering agents. What fascinates me is the the western spirituality has a staunch aversion to these practices for a variety of reasons. Take a moment to read the follow short article. I'm curious if you have any views on the subject.... from the Newsletter of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies
MAPS - Volume 4 Number 4 Spring 1994
is there a proper place for psychedelics in spiritual practice?
Igor Kungurtsev, M.D.
It may seem that nothing new can be said on this topic after Ram Dass and Ralph Metzner. Yet the theme is vast and has many pros and contras as reflected in one of the recent issues of "Gnosis" magazine. (Winter 93, No 26.)This article is an attempt to look at psychedelics from the point of view of somebody who measures everything by one criteria: will this bring me permanent and stable peace and happiness? Or is it interesting and fascinating but has nothing to do with liberation from suffering? (This attitude might seem narrow but regarding other aspects I refer the reader to a significant body of literature.) I believe that longing for permanent contentment is an unconscious motivation behind all human actions; however, it's amazing how difficult it is to really accept that nothing external can bring us lasting happiness. continued ... |
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I posted this thread because I have encountered the topic in various guises... in When Science Meets Magic [Don Paris, I think], it is said that these psychotropic experiences are used to open or literally break a hole in our perception of reality, we are supposedly aware of or processing only 17% of reality when in a everyday conscious state. Introducing toxic substances to the body creates a state that divorces the mind from its auto-conscious state. Micheal Harner says in his Way of the Shaman, that the south american shamans use these herbs and drinks specifically as a vechile beyond established reality into an altered consciousness to perceive the next level of reality. During psychology class we had a session where we studied consciousness [in relation to such states as coma, disability, truama, sleep, meditation and everyday activity] one of the most interesting statistics put forth was that we can only remember 7% of our environment in instant recall. This immediately brings to mind the question.... wheres the other 93%? Western psych-science has learned how to train the brain to do remarkable things, and yes we have used our own modern chemical cocktails to mess with an individual's reality. Yet, western culture in particular creates this wedge of social/religious taboo against this practice that existed in many pre-christian religions. Why? was it simply to de-power the shamans, seers and priests of the conquered religions? We know that generally the use of these pyschedic experiences were used in a religious content, by those trained in the use or under specific circumstances ... meaning that it was not the population walking around 'under the influence' only those that sought the spirit of their people. Or is it for our own good? Anyways, I'm definitely not advocating the use of drugs for anything.... and although this is only one of the many 'why & whatfor' questions I have about Life in general, I find it is something either often ignored in mystism or relegated to back alleys with the drug pushers or potheads. Science doesn't ignore it, only glances at it side-ways in a medical and chemical context. Anthropology recognizes it in cultural context and History sees it as a primitive era of man. I don't know yet how the subject ties in with my other theories of bio-chemical/electrical energy and psychological manipulation, maybe its just one of those things that make me curious, lol. So anyways.... Have a good night, folks Red |
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| Red, my two cents on this subject...although I haven't felt the need to incorporate it into my path, I do feel there is a place for the use of mind altering herbs and plants to aid one's spiritual quest. Shamans, mystics over time and from different cultures have them in this way and considered them sacred. But alas, as with many things, western European culture took what was sacred and made it profane. I have heard some native folks express the opinion (and I do wonder about it myself) that the drug abuse, lung cancer (from smoking), even alcoholism, are like a curse on a society that has taken what was only used in for the sacred and made it mundane... Wondering, Leila | | | |
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| | | From: Devine | Sent: 8/22/2004 4:04 PM |
Hmmmmmm I am not against the use of herbs or drugs to enhance ones 'sight', but I would hesitate to say that any ole one could effectively use them. A trained Shaman knows what to look for in their visions and how to control and channel the effects of their sacred herbs. A layman may be experiencing a psychadelic trip but it might not be some of that 93% that is untapped. Years of training have allowed Shaman to reach deeper into their unconscious and psychie. They have learned how to raise their energy so that they can contact and recieve messages of the Divine. Dabbling in a little mugwort or smudging herbs wont bring on the major mind bending experiences that Peyote and the others might but then you wont have to explain why you are naked on the subway either lol. I think the reason Western culture has an adversion to it is 'control'. Traditionally western culture has a need to be in control of its self completely and with mind altering herbs you are not in control. Also Westerners are not very patient, so they jump into these things without the training and have bad experiences. Native peoples use a bad experience as a training learining experience, while westerners use it as proof that it is a bad thing. Frankly it is just a matter of perception or opinion. Psychedelic herbs/drugs/medications have been around and been used since time began. I say leave it be. Those trained in its use should not be banned and those interested should be trained. Only someone who is truely devoted would go through all of the training just to use these herbs. Just my thoughts (dont know if it made sense lol) Devine |
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Dabbling in a little mugwort or smudging herbs wont bring on the major mind bending experiences that Peyote and the others might but then you wont have to explain why you are naked on the subway either lol. ... amen to that!! lol I agree with you about the training and knowledge. The more I read, the more surprised I am at the depth of herbal knowledge this shamans have. They KNOW that one of those trips could go wrong and end up a one way ticket. Granted christianity never had any of these conscious-altering approaches (that I know of) so there was nothing truly sacred to them, instead our pleasure seeking and self gratifying social psychosis sees dangerous drugs as a recreation and therefore requiring control.... and rightly so, in our self-indulgent culture. On a lighter note, I admit to sheer cowardliness when it comes to this kind of thing ... I had to research and plague people with endless questions before I'd even drink the mugwort, lol I can not imagine people like Harner and other anthropologists drinking some of these brews .... especially after being told its highly toxic !! In one account, Harner drank the guayusa, and had to be held down (to keep from running off into the jungle or throwing himself from a cliff) and have his ears muffled (as well as the dogs silenced) in order to keep from going mad. .... No... I think I'd pass that up. |
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| | From:  imbas1 | Sent: 9/23/2004 10:35 AM |
"Granted christianity never had any of these conscious-altering approaches (that I know of) so there was nothing truly sacred to them" Various Christian sects have performed conscious-altering rituals to "become one with god" Flaggelation comes to mind right off. This method, the application of pain, either by self or others was chosen to mimic the historical suffering of their prophet, Jesus. Had Jesus done his speaking while stoned, it certainly would have been more pleasant for the Christians, but application of pain can achieve seperation of mind and body..... |
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Good Morning Imbas, You are correct ... the use of pain and other physical deprivations have long been a tool of western religious culture. However I should have been more specific since what I was refering to was the use of psychtropic plants and other mind altering substances which are consumed. |
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