I positively think, that there are absolutely no absolutes....absolutely.

 

Winged.

Absolutes, like most things, have contradicting natures that depend upon ones point of view and point from referencing. Existance is an absolute, yet existances aren't absolutes when compared to alternate existances, one of which is non-existance. The finite and the infinite are distinguished by those with only a certain level of awareness and understanding. From a different perspective one can see infinity in the finite potential.The finite potential's finite aspects depends upon one's happenstance point of reference, interaction with, and moment of encounter. Obsereved timelessly and from all perspectives each finite potential is revealed to be of infinite nature and aspects. So, perhaps absolutes both are and aren't. Depending upon what nature of existance we temporarily inhabit and for so long as we inhabit theat absolutes realm of potential.

Hi Wandering,

 

Using three dimensional space was a bad example for me. I observe dimensions and distances to be relative, not an absolute. To travel from here to another potential habitable world on the otherside of the galaxy doesn't neccessarily require a space ship, it might just envolve tuning your center of being to the harmonies of the perspective of being on the habitable world on the otherside of the Galaxy. Distance, space, and time are relative, not absolutes. Perhaps everything is or isn't abosolute, depending again upon the observation of the observer and his will and current level conscious existance.

I would have to disagree with you.  The universe is not built on what-ifs, but rather upon what IS.  Throughout the universe you see order upon order upon order.  If the universe was based in pure chaos there would be nothing, not even a semblance of reality.  Now of course, the argument goes, that everything broken down to the smallest reducable particle you are left with nothing...but that nothing has form and structure.  It obeys various laws that are VERY testible.  These very laws ARE the absolutes of the universe.  They work and have been working for a very long time.  Whether you believe in creationism, evolution, materialism, egotism, weirdism, or whatever floats your boat these laws still apply to you and work regardless of belief.  It is really interesting that alot of people will say they don't believe in absolutes yet their very being REQUIRES absolutes.  What most are saying is not that there aren't absolutes...just that there are no MORAL absolutes...which could very well be...but I couldn't give you a logical arguement for or against, thus I tend to fall back on my "well, I dunno".  As for absolutes in general they DO exist.  The wonderful thing about being human<I sometimes doubt it though> is our wierd and strange ability to disregard anything that threatens our images of ourselves.

  That being said, while there are absolutes <and yes I AM taking a stance here ( call it my super-ninja-magic-jump ona bed and scream stance)>  It is sheer folly to say that we know and understand these absolutes completely.  At best I would say we have a taste or flavor for the possible and the absolute.  A couple of nice quotes on the subject by Eliphas Levi from "Magic and Magism":

 

While agree with you that there are absolutes (because I tend to preach them myself, though I dont claim to know what they are), I do find that your stance on the universe may be a bit weak.

 

Claiming that the universe is organized and ordered completely contradicts all modern physics. I mean, just for kicks, the uncertainty principle and the chaos theory are the two top ones that come to mind without even thinking. And when it comes to being based on rules, *cue magick*. There exist some texts which document people doing such weird things such as teleportation, defying "gravity" (ala telekinesis), and disobeying laws such as conservation of matter and energy. Since people have experience and have witness such things, it would seem to put down your current theory that the universe is written by laws. You cannot say that the universe is based on our current understanding of physics and natural laws because they have been trespassed, and thus, the only absolute within our capabilities to understand is that we dont know what the absolute about the laws of the universe

 

Sorry, but I like trying to throw a wrench in the machinery.

 

Take it easy,

Tad

 

 

(Heisenberg, uncertainty paper, 1927 )  This is pretty straight forward and has alot of implications towards objective viewing of things.  It is directly related to obeservation...not what is.  The absolute in this would be that it has momentum and a position, but it states you can't measure them accurately without losing precision to one or the other.  But it doesn't disprove how the laws of the universe work, just that they are unmeasurable.  You can actually see the exact same thing in the old druidic learning triad of the three things that make up something:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A couple of links on chaos theory and the uncertainty principle:

 

 

 

There seem to be all kinds of trivial examples of absolutes, especially mathematical and logical ones...at least when given a specific set of axioms.  Now, does the fact that we can change the axioms and get different results mean that absolutes don't exist?  I wouldn't think so, since you can absolutely determine the result from a given set of axioms.

 

Why even go into "absolutes" in physics and whatnot?  I think they probably exist, but I don't know what they are, but how is it useful to debate such a topic?  It doesn't change the way the world works, and its obvious that we don't know that much about how it does work, anyway.

 

As for "magick", my theory on that is that it works along the same energy that prayer does, which, in essence, is a Will determining some kind of change in the physical world.  Again, there's no a-priori reason why there has to be any absolutes invoved in this or not, but I think there probably are.

 

-- sæskwač