Dealing with Chronic Pain

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Just moving the discussion of this movie over to this board.

Is it too violent? Is it too focused on too short a period of Jesus' life? Is it just right?

Bring your opinion of this movie to this thread, and feel free to start up threads about any other movie you liked or didn't like.

Movies are great things, they take your mind off the pain for a little while.

hi im cindy i took my kids to see the passion and its not as bad as what they show on tv or even see on the streets its too bad alot of parents wait to teach these kids of horrible things after they seen it on tv or out in public this is a must see he died for us and some of us dont even know how to explain it to the kids we try to pretty it up for them when its not pretty he died for us and they need to see just how bad it was for him and what we do to him eveytime we do wrong he saved us he loves us even though we spit in his face lying abd cheating and treating people bad or what ever bad there is we do for me my kids will know i think 10 is where to start to show the kids the horrible things people did to jesus the younger yrs are for the preparing for the harder but its only my opinion god bless us all and he will show each one of us what to do as far as dealing with the question on should i or shouldnt i peace be with you always your friend in pain cindy

Well, it was a powerful movie. I don't know if I would take kids to see it, just because of the brutal scourge scene. I'm not sure youngsters need to see that. However, that's every parent's decision, not mine.

I can say this. As a paramedic, I pulled burned bodies out of cars. I picked up mangled people from wrecks where they were on motorcycles and ran head on into pickup trucks, and I had to pick up their arms and legs out of the ditch and put them by the bodies so everything would be together for the coroner. In hospital burn units I've put ointment on people who have had huge amounts of their skin burned away, including their faces. I mean, I've seen some really bad things done to people, and I had a hard time watching the scrourging scene. It was brutal; it was bloody; it was graphically violent.

The point was, of course that Christ was suffering for our sins., and that he suffered terribly.

The movie followed scripture very, very closely as near as I could tell, and I believe it followed the version Mathew told, though I've not verified that yet through going and studying the three gospels that really spell out those last hours of Christ.

I can say this, at the end, when the temple split from the earthquake, and the high priests were so afraid, I was like, "Go GOD!!! Get those bastards!" The high priests were for sure made out to be the bad guys in the whole thing, and then of course there were a few Jewish poeple duped by them into following them into the cry for cruifixtion.

Herrod was made out to be a fop and a fool. Pilate was made out to be a guy who tried to save Jesus but was just overwhelmed by the politics of the time.

I'm stopped dead in my tracks several times today, thinking about images from that movie. I was profoundly affected by it, and I think almost any Christian would be. Don't go if you are affected badly by blood and violence, unless you feel you must.

I'm glad I went. I won't go again. Once was enough, I think. I've long had these thoughts about the agony of Christ on the cross. Now, I have mental images to go with the thoughts. I'm not sure that's a blessing yet. I suppose it must be.

hi dan,

I have a gift-not shared. my sons took me to the passion of our lord tonight. it is the closest to the actually suffering of our lord ever created.

taken from gospel and trains of catherine emerik-stigmatic-

mell is in grace with god for sure.

I agree with you-incredible.

darilyn

----- Original Message -----

From: Dan

To: Dealing with Chronic Pain

Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 5:33 PM

Subject: Re: The Passion of Christ

New Message on Dealing with Chronic Pain

The Passion of Christ

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From: Dan

I saw it today. It was incredible. I want some time to reflect. I'll post my thoughts tomorrow.

Love,

Dan

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The results of that woman's autopsy showed she had chronic heart problems.

I think this movie should been seen only if you can handle it.

I remember the movies about Buford T. Pusser in Walking Tall. It took days for me to get over them. How could someone deal with such violence towards him and it cost him his wife. And he still did his job.

I know what Jesus did for us. But to see it...and then there are these people who are trying to prove the Bible is fiction .

What Jesus did for us was out of love. I plan to see it, but it will have to be when it comes out on tape. I can't afford to go to the theater...and besides....if it's gonna make me cry...I wanna be where I can cut loose with the flood. I don't handle violence in movies to well. Or scarey movies for that matter.

I don't watch Jason, or Freddie, or where there is alot of violence. Can't handle it....

Thank you for that concise critique. Two things struck me: first, that you felt it was (relatively) historically accurate. (that means a lot to me in terms of movies of this sort) Second, that you did not get involved in the "politically correct" shite that's flying around about the movie, especially here in San Francisco (check headlines if you want the 'flavor').

Here in Ess Eff, which some call "Pagan Central" -- the movie's been BURIED. I mean NO major theatre will show it. It's showing in exactly 2 places, both hidden in obscurity.

Ain't seen it yet -- waiting to see what kind of reaction's drawn to these theatres here first -- the last thing I want is to end up in the middle of a brawl...

Christians are UNWELCOME in San Francisco, doncha know....

Again, Dan, thanks for that.

I guess I thought the commercials advertising the movie were too grusome. I am used to movies that most would be shy to see. I am a pretty open parent and have explained a lot to my now 7 1/2 year old. I can't criticise another parent for taking their child(ren) to this movie just because I might not. I believe it starts at home and hopefully prepares them for walking out the door into reality. Just based on the ads about the movie on t.v. I don't think I would take my daughter just yet, not without a lot of talking about it first. We have a tapestry of Jesus pointing to his heart on our wall. I look at this to remind me of what I need to hold dear in my heart, sometimes it works other times....well. I watched a movie one time that was on t.v. and it showed how Jesus didn't fight the other boys when he was teen and when he was asked why he took the punches he said (I'm paraphrasing here, it's been awhile) 'it wouldn't have done any good, it would have only hurt all those involved.' Some how that's what stuck in my head and has helped me with anger issues. So on the tapestry at home Jesus is pointing to his heart and the message to me is "remember what is in my heart". For me I guess that is to be nice and to love one another. Definitely a parents choice to take their children because they know their kids best and what they can handle. I actually wish they would not show the ad on t.v. I guess my daughter's reaction to that is what tells me I wouldn't take her without a lot of teachings first. At least this movie according to all above is about reminding us why he died in the first place. I guess if I had to choose between this movie and the violent video games I would choose to expose my child to this first. Yes it is no worse than anything on t.v. Did I mention my daughter likes to watch shows on surgeries and E.R. room type of shows whether fiction or real? It's me who has to keep my face straight as we need good caring compassionate Drs. in this world and if this is a potential of hers then so be it "watch on", who am I to hold her back. I think that if the parent(s) thinks it might be beneficial for the child(ren) then it's up to the parent(s).

When I was in my early teens, our church group had a speaker named Christian Matthews who gave us a most graphic description of the crucifixion. It has never left me. All I need to do is read a review of Mel's film and I am in tears because I KNOW what he depicted. It is precisely what Christian Matthews told us those many years ago. And it ripped my heart to shreds. I don't know how anyone can possibly see those things and not be profoundly affected. Whether you are Jew or Christian, atheist or agnostic or Islamic, what was done to Jesus was an act of barbarism. I don't care if it was the preferred method of dealing with criminals at the time, it was still barbaric. The Romans broke the victims legs routinely so they couldn't hold themselves up any longer and thus would suffocate faster from their own body weight as it hung on the cross. We have heard the story so many times in our churches in Sunday School that it eventually ceases to have meaning for us. I suspect this movie will change that drastically and forever. I don't think anyone who sees it will EVER be able to forget it the next time Easter Sunday rolls around, or forever after. And that is as it should be. We have become complacent. We have become enured to violence on television and in movies. I am personally shocked at what no longer shocks me. I am going to post here several reviews I have received in e-mail about this movie.

Jody Dean wrote this: (He is a Dallas TV anchor). There've been a ton of e-mails and forwards floating around recently from those who've had the privilege of seeing Mel Gibson's "The Passion Of Christ" prior to its actual release. I thought I'd give you my reaction after seeing it last night. The screening was on the first night of "Elevate!", a weekend-long seminar for young people at Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano. There were about 2,000 people there, and the movie was shown after several speakers had taken the podium. It started around 9 and finished around 11...so I reckon the film is about two hours in length. Frankly, I lost complete track of time - so I can't be sure. I want you to know that I started in broadcasting when I was 13-years-old. I've been in the business of writing, performing, production, and broadcasting for a long time. I've been a part of movies, radio, television, stage and other productions - so I know how things are done. I know about soundtracks and special effects and make-up and screenplays. I think I've seen just about every kind of movie or TV show ever made - from extremely inspirational to extremely gory. I read a lot, too - and have covered stories and scenes that still make me wince. I also have a vivid imagination, and have the ability to picture things as they must havehappened - or to anticipate things as they will be portrayed. I've also seen an enormous amount of footage from Gibson's film, so I thought I knew what was coming. But there is nothing in my existence - nothing I could have read, seen, heard, thought, or known - that could have prepared me for what I saw on screen last night.

This is not a movie that anyone will "like". I don't think it's a movie anyone will "love". It certainly doesn't "entertain". There isn't even the sense that one has just watched a movie. What it is, is an experience - on a level of primary emotion that is scarcely comprehensible. Every shred of human preconception or predisposition is utterly stripped away. No one will eat popcorn during this film. Some may not eat for days after they've seen it. Quite honestly, I wanted to vomit. It hits that hard.

I can see why some people are worried about how the film portrays the Jews. They should be worried. No, it's not anti-Semitic. What it is, is entirely shattering. There are no "winners". No one comes off looking "good" - except Jesus.

Even His own mother hesitates. As depicted, the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day merely do what any of us would have done - and still do. They protected their perceived "place" - their sense of safety and security, and the satisfaction of their own "rightness". But everyone falters. Caiphus judges. Peter denies. Judas betrays. Simon the Cyrene balks. Mark runs away. Pilate equivocates. The crowd mocks. The soldiers laugh. Longinus still stabs with his pilus. The centurion still carries out his orders. And as Jesus fixes them all with a glance, they still turn away.

The Jews, the Romans, Jesus' friends - they all fall. Everyone, except the Principal Figure. Heaven sheds a single, mighty tear - and as blood and water spew from His side, the complacency of all creation is eternally shattered.

The film grabs you in the first five seconds, and never lets go. The brutality, humiliation, and gore is almost inconceivable - and still probably doesn't go far enough. The scourging alone seems to never end, and you cringe at the sound and splatter of every blow - no matter how steely your nerves. Even those who have known combat or prison will have trouble, no matter their experience - because this Man was not conscripted. He went willingly, laying down His entirety for all. It is one thing for a soldier to die for his countrymen. It's something else entirely to think of even a common man dying for those who hate and wish to kill him. But this is no common man. This is the King of the Universe. The idea that anyone could or would have gone through such punishment is unthinkable - but this Man was completely innocent, completely Holy - and paying the price for others. He screams as He is laid upon the cross, "Father, they don't know. They don't know..."

What Gibson has done is to use all of his considerable skill to portray the most dramatic moment of the most dramatic events since the dawn of time. There is no escape. It's a punch to the gut that puts you on the canvas, and you don't get up. You are simply confronted by the horror of what was done - what had to be done - and why. Throughout the entire film, I found myself apologizing.

What you've heard about how audiences have reacted is true. There was no sound after the film's conclusion. No noise at all. No one got up. No one moved. The only sound one could hear was sobbing. In all my years of public life, I have never heard anything like that.

I told many of you that Gibson had reportedly re-shot the ending to include more "hope" through the Resurrection? That's not true. The Resurrection scene is perhaps the shortest in the entire movie - and yet it packs a punch that can't be quantified. It is perfect. There is no way to negotiate the meaning out of it. It simply asks, "Now, what will you do?"

I'll leave the details to you, in the hope that you will see the film - but one thing above all stands out, and I have to tell you about it. It comes from the end of Jesus' temptations in the wilderness - where the Bible

says Satan left him "until a more opportune time". I imagine Satan never quit tempting Christ, but this film captures beyond words the most opportune time. At every step of the way, Satan is there at Jesus' side - imploring Him to quit, reasoning with Him to give up, and seducing Him to surrender. For the first time, one gets a heart-stopping idea of the sense of madness that must have enveloped Jesus - a sense of the evil that was at His very elbow. The physical punishment is relentless - but it's the sense of psychological torture that is most overwhelming. He should have quit. He should have opened His mouth. He should have called 10,000 angels. No one would have blamed Him. What we deserve is obvious. But He couldn't do that. He wouldn't do that. He didn't do that. He doesn't do that. It was not and is not His character. He was obedient, all the way to the cross - and you feel the real meaning of that phrase in a place the human heart usually doesn't dare to go. You understand that we are called to that same level of obedience. With Jesus' humanity so irresistibly on display, you understand that we have no excuse. There is no place to hide.

The truth is this: Is it just a "movie"? In a way, yes. But it goes far beyond that, in a fashion I've never felt - in any forum. We may think we "know". We know nothing. We've gone 2,000 years - used to the idea of a pleasant story, and a sanitized Christ. We expect the ending, because we've heard it so many times. God forgive us. This film tears that all away. It's as close as any of us will ever get to knowing, until we fully know. Paul understood. "Be urgent, in and out of season."

Luke wrote that Jesus reveals Himself in the breaking of the bread. Exactly. "The Passion Of The Christ" shows that Bread being broken.

Go see this movie.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Paul Harvey Comments on "The Passion" by Mel Gibson

The majority of the media are complaining about this movie. Now Paul Harvey tells "The rest of the story" and David Limbaugh praises Gibson. Most people would wait and see a movie before giving the reviews that have been issued by the reporters trying to tell all of us what to believe.

Paul Harvey's words: I really did not know what to expect. I was thrilled to have been invited to a private viewing of Mel Gibson's film "The Passion," but I had also read all the cautious articles and spin. I grew up in a Jewish town and owe much of my own faith journey to the influence. I have a life long, deeply held aversion to anything that might even indirectly encourage any form of anti-Semitic thought, language or actions. I arrived at the private viewing for "The Passion", held in Washington DC and greeted some familiar faces. The environment was typically Washingtonian, with people greeting you with a smile but seeming to look beyond you, having an agenda beyond the words.. The film was very briefly introduced, without fanfare, and then the room darkened.

From the gripping opening scene in the Garden of Gethsemane, to the very human and tender portrayal of the earthly ministry of Jesus, through the betrayal, the arrest, the scourging, the way of the cross, the encounter with the thieves, the surrender on the Cross, until the final scene in the empty tomb, this was not simply a movie; it was an encounter, unlike anything I have ever experienced. In addition to being a masterpiece of film-making and an artistic triumph, "The Passion" evoked more deep reflection, sorrow and emotional reaction within me than anything since my wedding, my ordination or the birth of my children. Frankly, I will never be the same. When the film concluded, this "invitation only" gathering of "movers and shakers" in Washington, DC were shaking indeed, but this time from sobbing. I am not sure there was a dry eye in the place. The crowd that had been glad-handing before the film was now eerily silent. No one could speak because words were woefully inadequate. We had experienced a kind of art that is a rarity in life, the kind that makes heaven touch earth.

One scene in the film has now been forever etched in my mind. A brutalized, wounded Jesus was soon to fall again under the weight of the cross. His mother had made her way along the Via Della Rosa. As she ran to him, she flashed back to a memory of Jesus as a child, falling in the dirt road outside of their home. Just as she reached to protect him from the fall, she was now reaching to touch his wounded adult face. Jesus looked at her with intensely probing and passionately loving eyes (and at all of us through the screen) and said "Behold I make all things new." These are words taken from the last Book of the New Testament, the Book of Revelations. Suddenly, the purpose of the pain was so clear and the wounds, that earlier in the film had been so difficult to see in His face, His back, indeed all over His body, became intensely beautiful. They had been borne voluntarily for love.

At the end of the film, after we had all had a chance to recover, a question and answer period ensued. The unanimous praise for the film, from a rather diverse crowd, was as astounding as the compliments were effusive. The questions included the one question that seems to follow this film, even though it has not yet even been released. "Why is this film considered by some to be "anti-Semitic?" Frankly, having now experienced (you do not "view" this film) "The Passion" it is a question that is impossible to answer. A law professor whom I admire sat in front of me. He raised his hand and responded. "After watching this film, I do not understand how anyone can insinuate that it even remotely presents that the Jews killed Jesus. It doesn't." He continued, "It made me realize that my sins killed Jesus" I agree. There is not a scintilla of anti-Semitism to be found anywhere in this powerful film. If there were, I would be among the first to decry it. It faithfully tells the Gospel story in a dramatically beautiful, sensitive and profoundly engaging way.

Those who are alleging otherwise have either not seen the film or have another agenda behind their protestations. This is not a "Christian" film, in the sense that it will appeal only to those who identify themselves as followers of Jesus Christ. It is a deeply human, beautiful story that will deeply touch all men and women. It is a profound work of art. Yes, its producer is a Catholic Christian and thankfully has remained faithful to the Gospel text; if that is no longer acceptable behavior than we are all in trouble.

History demands that we remain faithful to the story and Christians have a right to tell it. After all, we believe that it is the greatest story ever told and that its message is for all men and women. The greatest right is the right to hear the truth. We would all be well advised to remember that the Gospel narratives to which "The Passion" is so faithful were written by Jewish men who followed a Jewish Rabbi whose life and teaching have forever changed the history of the world. The problem is not the message but those who have distorted it and used it for hate rather than love. The solution is not to censor the message, but rather to promote the kind of gift of love that is Mel Gibson's filmmaking masterpiece, "The Passion." It should be seen by as many people as possible. I intend to do everything I can to make sure that is the case. I am passionate about "The Passion." You will be as well. Don't miss it!

The following is a commentary by DAVID LIMBAUGH about Mel Gibson's very controversial movie regarding Christ's crucifixion. It, too, is well worth reading.

MEL GIBSON'S passion for "THE PASSION"

How ironic that when a movie producer takes artistic license with historical events, he is lionized as artistic, creative and brilliant, but when another takes special care to be true to the real-life story, he is vilified. Actor- producer Mel Gibson is discovering these truths the hard way as he is having difficulty finding a United States studio or distributor for his upcoming film, "The Passion," which depicts the last 12 hours of the life of Jesus Christ. Gibson co-wrote the script and financed, directed and produced the movie.

For the script, he and his co-author relied on the New Testament Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, as well as the diaries of St. Anne Catherine Emmerich
(1774-1824) and Mary of Agreda's "The City of God." Gibson doesn't want this to be like other sterilized religious epics. "I'm trying to access the story on a very personal level and trying to be very real about it." So committed to realistically portraying what many would consider the most important half-day in the history of the universe, Gibson even shot the film in the Aramaic language of the period. In response to objections that viewers will not be able to understand that language, Gibson said, "Hopefully, I'll be able to transcend the language barriers with my visual storytelling. if I fail, I fail, but at least it'll be a monumental failure."

To further insure the accuracy of the work, Gibson has enlisted the counsel of pastors and theologians, and has received rave reviews. Don Hodel, president of Focus on the Family, said, "I was very impressed. The movie is historically and theologically accurate." Ted Haggard, pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo., and president of the National Evangelical Association, glowed, "It conveys, more accurately than any other film, who Jesus was."

During the filming, Gibson, a devout Catholic, attended Mass every morning because "we had to be squeaky clean just working on this." From Gibson's perspective, this movie is not about Mel Gibson. It's bigger than he is. "I'm not a preacher, and I'm not a pastor," he said. "But I really feel my career was leading me to make this. The Holy Ghost was working through me on this film, and I was just directing traffic. I hope the film has the power to evangelize."

Even before the release of the movie, scheduled for March 2004, Gibson is getting his wish. "Everyone who worked on this movie was changed. There were agnostics and Muslims on set converting to Christianity...[and] people being healed of diseases." Gibson wants people to understand through the movie, if they don't already, the incalculable influence Christ has had on the world. And he grasps that Christ is controversial precisely because of WHO HE IS - GOD incarnate. "And that's the point of my film really, to show all that turmoil around him politically and with religious leaders and the people, all because He is Who He is."

Gibson is beginning to experience first hand just how controversial Christ is. Critics have not only speciously challenged the movie's authenticity, but have charged that it is disparaging to Jews, which Gibson vehemently denies. "This is not a Christian vs. Jewish thing. '[Jesus] came into the world, and it knew him not.' Looking at Christ's crucifixion, I look first at my own culpability in that." Jesuit Father William J. Fulco, who translated the script into Aramaic and Latin, said he saw no hint of anti-Semitism in the movie. Fulco added, "I would be aghast at any suggestion that Mel Gibson is anti-Semitic."

Nevertheless, certain groups and some in the mainstream press have been very critical of Gibson's "Passion." The New York Post's Andrea Peyser chided him: "There is still time, Mel, to tell the truth." Boston Globe columnist James Carroll denounced Gibson's literal reading of the biblical accounts. "Even a faithful repetition of the Gospel stories of the death of Jesus can do damage exactly because those sacred texts themselves carry the virus of Jew hatred," wrote Carroll. A group of Jewish and Christian academics has issued an 18-page report slamming all aspects of the film, including its undue emphasis on Christ's passion rather than "a broader vision." The report disapproves of the movie's treatment of Christ's passion as historical fact.

The moral is that if you want the popular culture to laud your work on Christ, make sure it either depicts Him as a homosexual or as an everyday sinner with no particular redeeming value (literally). In our anti-Christian culture, the blasphemous "The Last Temptation of Christ" is celebrated and "The Passion" is condemned. But if this movie continues to affect people the way it is now, no amount of cultural opposition will suppress its force and its positive impact on lives everywhere. Mel Gibson is a model of faith and courage.

I've posted a couple of professional reviews of the movie on the movie board for anyone that would like to read them. One is by Paul Harvey. I received these in e-mail and don't have dates or other publication info so if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing. Thanks!

"What Gibson has done is to use all of his considerable skill to portray the most dramatic moment of the most dramatic events since the dawn of time. There is no escape. It's a punch to the gut that puts you on the canvas, and you don't get up. You are simply confronted by the horror of what was done - what had to be done - and why. Throughout the entire film, I found myself apologizing." -- excerpt, article by Jody Dean, Dallas TV anchor.

---Cyndy: once again I'm being redundant but what the hey, eh? For the purposes of this one movie, perhaps one could paraphrase Mr. Dean: 'What Gibson has done .... is to portray the most dramatic moment in the most dramatic event since the dawn of time....'?

Most of Christendom agrees on the events leading to, during, and after the crucifixion of Christ. The screen is THE most powerful tool of our age. I've read, in a couple of non-emotional, non-hysterical articles, the only thing that matters really: that the movie is HISTORICALLY accurate: how it portrays the Romans, AND the Jews, et al., during that time and in that location.

All else -- the indiv. reaction, etc., is the business of the person having 'em. Shoot, "The Exorcist" made ME puke. Some of the fright-night movies would too if I watched em.

In my humble op, IF the story is accurate, and if the gut-wrenching events that actually occurred are portrayed, and then has a gut-wrenching effect on me, that equals a damnably finely made movie!

It might be too late to say kids shouldn't be exposed to such violence. Even their video games are killing and maiming. I saw the movie yesterday, and like so many other people, I wasn't going to because of all the talk about it being violent sensationalism. All I saw was Jesus. I was mesmerized by the portrayal. Many times Jesus set his jaw in determination. That happened alot. He is the strongest man who ever lived. I was going to use the past tense there, but you know as well as I do that he's alive. The last scene was the best, when the sun shine lit up his face as he sat on the edge of the tomb. He had his jaw set again. He knew human nature was such that he was in for more problems, but he was determined to move forward out of love for us. I say don't judge the movie if you haven't seen it for yourself. I learned alot about my Lord as I watched it. Joan

I would say to go and see the movie before you make a decision to take your kids.

I know I was profoundly moved by the movie, and now, some three or four days later, those feelings are even stronger at times. I burst into tears today, just thinking about one of the scenes, and no, I'm not depressed. I was just so moved by it and as I thought about it, I just started crying. It was the scene where he cried out, "Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?" Oh dear, here I go again...

It's a very, very powerful movie. See it and give yourself some time for reflextion before taking any child under the age of 18 to it. Please.

Aw (((Dan)))...the amount of pain you're in daily, and those times it's gotten so severely off the scale, gives you insight to relate to His moment of 'why'...a human cry for mercy.

All you have to do is look up the word, 'cat-o-nine-tails', a tool of torture used on Jesus, and it's inconceivable that He lived all the way to the cross.

Through it all...He never renounced His teachings, and He never blamed anyone...not even His Father.

I've read that His plea on the cross was the only way He could actually die...He had to allow His humanity to enter His body...all the fears and doubts that trip us up...He had to 'know' them, and that's when He asked 'Why?', and then He 'left'.

I hope you're doing better today Dan...you have a good heart...Lela

Oh yeah, hon. I know the theological reasons behind why he did that. But at that moment, and whenever I think about it...

Heh, heh. there I go again. <Dan blows his nose and wipes his eyes>

It was just so sad. It was well done. It really was. And the amount of pain I'm in every day pales with the amount of pain he endured.

That "scourging" whip was a special tool, by the way. I believe the "cat o 9 tails" was "invented" much later. The scourging whip was designed to take off huge layers of skin every time the person was struck. That's why the "cups" on the end of the whip.

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