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OK, along similar lines to Forever Amber's previous question, but what people in the life of H8 (apart from the wives) do you like or dislike? I like Thomas Cranmer, I think he was a good man who came to a very nasty end. I don't like Thomas More. He is regarded as a saint but he took great delight in the burning of heretics. Opinions? |
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Good idea for a thread, Muckypup  Cranmer spent a great deal of his career doing what he did best....slithering out of harm's way. There was this letter he wrote to Henry after Anne Boleyn's arrest in which he basically said jeez I thought she was OK but if she's offended you o great one, then do whatcha gotta do. He also had a "conversion" to Catholicsim when Mary had him in the Tower which he then recanted when he realized she really meant to make a nasty end of him. I agree with you on More, Muckypup.....the Catholic Church only made him a saint because he DID approve of the burning of heretics, helped Henry write his Defense of the Seven Sacraments, & fired off his own Responsorio ad Lutherum. It's conveniently forgotten that More actually stated he would not deny anything Henry had put in the Act of Succession & Act of Supremacy, just that he would not swear to it. Basically, he said he could accept Elizabeth as Henry's heir did Henry so designate her, yet he could not accept the divorce from Catherine which Cranmer had pronounced, but he could also accept Henry's decision to make himself head of the Anglican Church, but not its total revocation from the authority of Rome, nor could he accept Parliament as an authority on religious matters. He was splitting hairs & got his permanently split LOL (as did Fisher, who Henry probably had it in for since Blackfriars). He also tweaked the king's beard so to speak by blowing off his invitation to Anne Boleyn's coronation. I also hate hate hate that unfinished History of the Reign of King Richard the Third, because a lot of misconceptions about RIII still come out of that today. Since he was all of 8 years old when Bosworth took place, he's hardly as credible an "eyewitness" as some peeps think  I actually sorta like Norfolk....despite the 2 Howard queens & his impetuous son (Surrey), he managed to escape Henry's reign unscathed & still breathing. He kicked butt at Flodden & really was a manipulative mastermind of politics |
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I think William Maitland of Leithington is very interesting - would like to see how well known he would be if he had been at the court Elizabeth rather than Scotland. He's very intelligent, and, I think, a patriot. He was loyal to whomever was best for Scotland, and that was not necessarily who was on the throne! At the end, he stuck out for MQOS over the Lords, so I guess he was a wee bit sentimental after all. Perhaps he thought, with some guidance, she couldn't have done any worse than the succession of regents did. (Can you tell I've been reading up on MQOS lately, with it being February and all!) |
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I always did like Cranmer, he was so kind and supportive of Anne of Cleves. I do believe he "slithered" out of trouble every now and then. He seemed very smart and kind to me. Another favorite of mine is Lettice Knollys, Elizabeths rival for Robert Dudley. Brave and brash, she knew what she wanted and went after it. Another is William Cecil, stood fast with the succession and served each monarch in their own right, was a good friend to Elizabeth too, and I like to think of her as having friends. I also have a fondness for Eustace Chapuys, the spanish ambassador beginning at blackfriars. He lasted along time and I believe Henry had respect for him. He stood by Katherine of Aragon to the bitter end and then some. One last person, Maria de Salinas, Katherine of Aragons friend, and supporter who chanced Henry's rath to visit Katherine towards the end. Some worthy sideline characters!? Tudorgalusa |
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But who do you peeps love to hate?  You only said who you liked! |
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John Dudley was too manipulative, even for those times, causing not only his son, Guildford to be executed, but poor Jane Grey as well...I think her mother's name was Frances (not sure) but, she was the mother from hell, the way she forced Jane into a marriage with Guildford, along with John Dudley, which led her to the block.  |
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Jane Grey's mother was Frances Brandon, daughter of Charles Brandon and Mary Tudor. And yes she was a she-wolf. Mean to poor Jane. I don't know why Mary I spared her in the beheadings. I know they were supposedly good friends, but Mary I loved Janes as well. But then she had the spanish ambassador whispering in her ear that Phillip would not come to England if the usurpers were not taken out. Tudorgalusa |
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Thanks, Greensleeves! Interesting you should mention Norfolk, I've just finished reading "In The Lion's Court", a book about the lives of six Thomases in Henry's court (Howard, Cranmer, Cromwell, Wolsey, More and Wriothesley) - as recommended in AMT's Brilliant Books. I didn't realise that Norfolk was so marginalized. Henry never had any real affection for him, and Wolsey and Cromwell were good at keeping him away from the centre of things, sending him on military ventures which were doomed to failure and not letting him return home. I ended up feeling kind of sorry for him. Totally forgot about Lady Grey's parents when I was doing my thread, yeah, they were horrible to poor Jane.  |
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You know, I have read that one....tis by Derek Wilson, the guy who wrote the Dudleys book, is it not? I was equally surprised to see how much power Wriothlesley had, because you never see much mention of him as a Tudor Player, so to speak. I sorta like Norfolk because he just kept chugging along like the little engine that could LOL He kept pushing for what he thought he was entitled to as "premier nobleman" of the realm & damned if he didn't really get a good deal of what he desired despite how much Henry personally eschewed him. I think given that, tis a miracle in itself that Henry didn't have him in the Tower awaiting the axe sooner. It was actually Norfolk's father who was raised to the dukedom by Henry, & then he promptly keeled over LOL The Howards, who cleverly managed to marry the last of the Mowbrays, had been clamoring for years to be raised from the rank of earl. |
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Hello Tudorglasa,
I agree with you entirely! I read My Enemy, The Queen about Lettice Knollys recently and I have a lot of respect for her. She was pretty brave to fight the Queen for Dudley!
I rather like the four Marie's - Queen Mary of Scot's ladies-in-waiting. They are very interesting in their own right. There was one that was especially fascinating - unfortunately I've momentarily forgotten her last name! I will look her up again. I think that she married Lennox. |
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Wasn't it Mary Fleming (the queen's half-cousin, or something ) who married my man Maitland? Mary Seaton & Mary Livingston married Scots lords, while Mary Beaton stayed with MQOS until she had to leave due to ill-health. Unless I've gotten my 4 Maries mixed up!  BTW, someone I truly don't like - John Knox. (and I'm of the Protestant faith....he was just too self-righteous to me, and conscious of his power. He should have worked with MQOS, or at least tolerated her, instead of agitating against her) |
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That is the book I read also, I thought it was a good change of views of the Dudley, Queen, Lettice triangle. It made you understand more fully what is was like to be close to the Queen and feel you could have nothing for yourself. Also it told about how vengeful and egotistical Elizabeth could be. As if we needed to be shown that, but imagine what it would have been like to be a lady-in-waiting during any part of that time period!!!! You had to watch yourself and others every moment. Puppets, that's what most of them were, puppets. Tudorgalusa |
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