Kiki40: For the sake discussion, I have allowed the position that polygyny today can be godly. I am not yet convinced that today's practice of it is either biblical or godly.

Scannerman777: I would agree that the adversary desires to corrupt every good thing from God. I verily believe that godly polygyny is practiced today but that most forms of polygamy (as is the case with most forms of "civil marriage") is not being practiced in a biblical or godly fashion, just as you have pointed out.

As for point #5, I am not sure what that means. I understand the language; I just don't understand its application to the discussion at hand. You may have to clarify it for me before I can agree.

Scannerman777: To be honest, I am not permitted to discuss point number five with you. I'm not even sure why, but I know the Lord Jesus allows certain things to be spoken of by permission and that He appoints both the seasons and the times for such things to be discussed decently and in good order. My spirit bears witness that although I understand these things in my heart, that for the present, I am not permitted to "utter" them here. The Lord knows best so I have declined this matter to Him.

Kiki40: I would also like to address the inappropriate use of the term "patriarch" again. Stamp your foot and give a childish pout and declare Adam or Solomon or Moses a patriarch all you want; neither of these men are called patriarchs in scripture. I maintain that the patriarchs are identified as being only Abraham (Heb. 7:4), Jacob's twelve sons (Acts 7:8), and David (Acts 2:29). There is a reason why these are called "patriarchs," and I doubt that it has anything at all to do with the fact that they had more than one wife. Abraham is the spiritual progenitor of the faithful seed that comprises the Church; Jacob's sons are the progenitors of the tribes of Israel; David is the progenitor of the Messiah. Each of these elements fit in the plan of God for the ages.

Scannerman777: I readily apologise for any inappropriate usage of the term from a scriptural standpoint. You are saying that we should not call any man a patriarch unless the scripture refers to them directly as such. I also realize how this word "patriarch" has several usages in the modern English despite the concession that the scriptural usage would be the most accurate. Although scripture does not literally describe Moses as a patriarch I maintain that it is unwise to assume that he was not. Unless you can offer scripture that explicitly states that Moses was not a patriarch we will have to agree to disagree. Now I certainly do agree that polygyny does not exactly qualify anyone to be a patriarch in the "royal" sense of the word, but I also maintain that even the Apostle Paul was a patriarch despite the lack of evidence that he was even a natural father.

American Heritage Dictionary

pa·tri·arch (ptr-ärk)  n. A man who rules a family, clan, or tribe. Bible. One of the antediluvian progenitors of the human race, from Adam to Noah. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or any of Jacob's 12 sons, the eponymous progenitors of the 12 tribes of Israel. Used formerly as a title for the bishops of Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria. Roman Catholic Church. A bishop who holds the highest episcopal rank after the pope. Eastern Orthodox Church. Any one of the bishops of the sees of Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Moscow, and Jerusalem who has authority over other bishops. Judaism. The head of the Sanhedrin in Syrian Palestine from about 180 B.C. to A.D. 429. Mormon Church. A high dignitary of the priesthood empowered to invoke blessings. One who is regarded as the founder or original head of an enterprise, organization, or tradition. A very old, venerable man; an elder. The oldest member of a group: the patriarch of the herd.

Scannerman777: As you can see in the above definitions, the term "patriarch" is applicable in our common English language to any ancient founder of anything considered substantial. Nonetheless I have made a note of your own personal and private exception in the knowledge that God is able to raise up as many patriarchs as He would see fit from stones and that He will graft as many branches into the Olive tree as He wishes. I find that this word "only" is also used inappropriately with an even greater frequency than the word "patriarch" and that it is the inappropriate usage of this word, "only", that certainly finds me more concerned about the traditions and the commandments of men: "only one wife", "only one patriarch", "only the Roman Catholic", "only the UPC", are among such examples of false doctrine. If the scripture had actually resorted to the word "only" in conjunction with the word "patriarch" I would readily embrace whatever truth it offered. Example: "To the only wise God our Saviour" certainly means what it says. Where does the scripture say that David is the progenitor of the Messiah? Did the Messiah have an earthly father also?

We do not find such a word as "only" used in conjunction with any of these patriarchs mentioned in the scripture. Hebrews 7:4 reads thusly: "Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils." So I do not find any scriptural substantiation for your assertion that ONLY Abraham, the twelve sons of Jacob, and King David are patriarchs, but I read with the understanding that they are also patriarchs. Patriarch literally means "ruling father". Any father ruling his own household could qualify for this title so I consider myself a patriarch too, although no greater than Abraham.

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Kiki40:  Scannerman: Something far greater than Eden awaits us: The sons and daughters of God have a mission.

Kiki40: We don't even know what Eden was. How can you say that something far greater than it awaits us? This I know: the overcomers will be going back to Eden to partake of the Tree of Life:

Revelation 2:7 (Whole Chapter)
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Scannerman777: Where is it written that Eden is in paradise? Or where is it written that we will return to Eden? I am curious about this. The Tree of Life was in the midst of the Garden of Eden. Are you supposing that the Tree of Life is still there? It is my understanding that the Adam was created in the beginning to tend the garden. It is also my understanding that this is no longer the purpose of the sons of man but rather that they should also become the sons of God as you mentioned in sundry communications.

Kiki40: And we shall not be kings and priests - we are kings and priests now!

Scannerman777:  I will allow for this "spiritualization" of terminology too if you would allow that the kingdom of God is in me; but for the time being, I shall continue to speak as a man even though I am a king. When I look up and cast my gaze into the heavens I also behold the mind of God and I consider the vastness of His creation. It becomes evident that the Tree of Life is not only limited to this tiny blue speck of a planet in the mind of God that we should think that paradise is limited to this earth. Christ Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you." Yet there are some who believe that this is the millennium and that the thousand year reign with Jesus on the earth is nearly over. Peradventure are you of this persuasion also? If so, I must concede that things are surely changing in the UPC.

Revelation 1

   ¹The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:    ²Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.    ³Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.    ⁴John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;    ⁵And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,    ⁶And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

um...I think that includes women, too, yeah.

 Ya mean... even abottnesses???

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Kiki40: Scannerman: The perfect "bliss" of innocence in Eden was obviously not enough to keep the first man and woman from sinning, but perhaps it might have been sufficient had not the adversary entered into the earth the day before Adam was created.

Kiki40: That is exactly what the Millineum is intended to prove to all mankind. The Church is getting it now. We understand that flesh is at enmity with God, and we understand that living in the Spirit means a daily dying to it. Whether there is a devil roaming to and fro on the earth or not, the very law that says "Thou shalt not" awakens sin in us. Paul said as much here in Romans 7:

⁵For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.  ⁶But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.    ⁷What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.    ⁸But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.    ⁹For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.    ¹⁰And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.    ¹¹For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So, when the devil is bound for a thousand years, will there still be sin on the earth? This verse from Rev. 22 leads me to believe that there will be:

¹⁴Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.    ¹⁵For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Scannerman777: I am not exactly sure of where you are going with this knowledge but you have certainly piqued interest in me. I am curious to learn more of what you think about paradise. For the most part I am quite quiet about this subject and I have my personal reasons for this. :::chuckles::: Some people might start thinking that I'm Enochrodofiron1 if I elaborate and  I surely wouldn't want to confuse anyone about paradise. Please feel free to set up a page and discussion for this topic and allow me to approach it with the humility of a student. Until then, I will remain faithful that the Lord has even greater plans for us.

 This should be fun.

http://groups.msn.com/FULLBIBLETRUTH/commentstokiki.msnw