Okay, since you are using green to quote Robert, I am going to quote myself in this color to avoid any further confusion.

"Why is it not now lawful? How was it lawful and then suddenly not lawful? Did God change the law? Where did God change the law? What part of the law was removed and what part of the law was added? Which jot? Which tittle? When did JESUS (the Father) suddenly change His mind about this thing that was once "lawful among the ancient fathers" ? Where does the scripture say that "there is not now a necessity of begetting children" ? No, these are only the words of yet another lying trinitarian. This man was no saint. To be fair, neither was Luther. I must be fair also to say that Luther diligently sought for the truth concerning this matter and failed to produce scripture to support "St. Augustine's" unholy lie. At least Martin Luther was honest about it." - Scannerman777

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 Jon: Well now first I would need to ask where God stated numbers for marriage at all? If he never made rules there is no law to change.

Jon; believe it or not, this is precisely my point. No matter how many wives a man may marry, the same ordinance of ONE FLESH occurs each and every time that he takes a wife. Nothing changed! Now I believe that it is evident to those who read the story that the Adam was made twain for the "CAUSE" and that it is for this cause that a man "shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." Are we not all ONE FLESH in the Adam? Is Eve the mother of all living? Yes, we don't like to admit to this, do we? But verily the flesh is corrupt, incestuous, and compromised with each and every passing generation. Incest is in our genetics. It is inherant and it is inherited. We are all brothers and sisters in the flesh even if we are "sworn enemies" in the spirit. It makes no difference to Jesus. He knows what we are.

Secondly, God did change some earlier rules, he allowed brothers to marry sisters and later said don't do that anymore.

Jon I am surprised. You just said that " If he never made rules there is no law to change." Where do you read that God made a rule stating, "Only a brother may marry a sister?" and then change the rule? You cannot have it both ways. The fact is, God never made such a rule AND GOD HAS NEVER CHANGED HIS LAW. However later, when He gave Israel their moral and civil law, HE commanded  that a brother should not take the daughter of his father to wife. Now we surely both know (and most of your advocates are quick to remind me of this) that 'just because God allowed something to happen that doesn't mean that He commanded it to happen.' In other words, I am saying, that just because God allowed a man to have more than one wife does not mean that HE MADE A LAW AGAINST IT either. If HE did, THEN SHOW ME THE LAW! Now I am using your own logic here. I am told this so often by those who continually fail to comprehend the truth in it's fullness. LISTEN CAREFULLY:

If there is no law against it, then it isn't SIN!

ROMANS 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

For without the law sin was dead.

Let's return briefly to THE BEGINNING:

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. (Genesis 2:23) AKJV

And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. (Genesis 3:20) AKJV

Based on these two scriptures alone, wouldn't you agree that we have inherited our sinful natures because we are ONE FLESH in the Adam? I think if the truth were told, anyone who ever married has married also a relative. We hope that our sons and daughters marry brothers and sisters in Christ if they marry at all, do we not?

No, brother, God never changed His law. Rather, He merely perfected it in His people by making it manifest to the Israelites; and also saved them from much corruption in so doing. Evenso, because of their sinful natures and incestuous flesh, they still failed to adhere to His law and keep His commandments. God's law is perfect. Our interpretation of His law is wanting. We must cease from leaning on our own understanding.

This is simply not true. It's your opinion, yes, however it is never Biblically stated to be an ideal for us all. It is how God chose to begin mankind, it is never made an archetype. ...and Unless your a nudist, gardener, married to a woman made from you side, you don't believe it to be archetypical either. - Robert

I fully agree with you, Robert. So far, it is my view that all that has been offered by Jon in opposition to the fact that GOD did indeed acknowledge and approve of "wives" plural for one husband is pure conjecture and opinion. As I stated previously, he will find no scripture to support his position; and after the passing of over 80 posts by us here, he still hasn't. Robert, if Jon's archetype were sound, then only ONE SOUL would be found in the Bride of Christ. All the rest of us would have to go to the "other place" because the Lamb of God would only be permitted to marry ONE PERSON in the BRIDE.

Jon:  However I do think it is true.  Eve was taken from Adams side to be his companion, not a slave to be ruled over.  This is where love comes in as well, love is commamd of us for our wives and love seeks not it own (as in own way).

Agreed. As a husband of two wives, I cannot argue with your statement, " love is commamd of us for our wives and love seeks not it own ". I can also say to you in all honesty that being the husband of two wives is teaching me a great deal about selflessness that I never thought of when I was the husband of "only one". It is not as some might suppose and I do not say that this is for everyone because it requires a tremendous amount of maturity and SELFLESSNESS on the parts of ALL PARTIES INVOLVED.

Although having two women (one on each side) does make walking together rather interesting AND FUN, it can also be somewhat comical from time-to-time. It surely tends to keep a smile on my face, especially when heads begin to turn. Anyone who thinks that he will not have to be selfless if he has two wives isn't even ready to be the husband of ONE WIFE, let alone TWO. That much I assure you and any other reader here, concerning SELFLESSNESS. I am grateful to my LORD that His commandments are NOT GRIEVOUS and that HIS burden is light. I cannot imagine in any way being able to love my wives appropriately without first loving JESUS. I am told by other secular polygamists that it is possible but I do not believe them and I am not interested in their reasons why they think they have a successful marriage. There are corrupt polygynist marriages and there are corrupt monogamous marriages. Without JESUS it is all corrupt. Yes, EVEN celibacy is corrupt without JESUS... look at what that led to in the churches of men!  

 

Salvation is God most imporant plan and if you are saved now, you will not be one of the people having more than one wife during the millenium as you will have your new body and will "be as the angels", not marrying or giving in marriage.

Exactly! Certainly, one could then say in Heaven we will be living "God's ideal", but in this age we are not no matter what our marital status.

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Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. (AKJV)

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. - NEW AGE PER VERSION

Now NOTICE the difference between ACCURATE TRANSLATION and NEW AGE PER VERSION. In the ORIGINAL ENGLISH translation "HIGHER POWERS" refers to the powers ordained of GOD. The NEW AGE PERVERSION translates it to mean any powers that exist are not only from GOD, but "appointed" by GOD! A subtle but very different translation. My version is correct because it is the original. Your version is perverted because it is NEW AGE. THE POWERS THAT BE are ordained of GOD. The powers that were usurped, stolen, pretended and abused are of the devil and they are not ordained of God but only, to use your permissive puritanical cohort's terminology... "PERMITTED" by GOD.   

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. (AKJV)

2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. - New Age Perversion

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: (AKJV)

Jon:  You have no command from God to marry one, two, three or more, so this area is open for man to rule over. 

 

 Do you mean to say, your King Jeus, is permitted by God (His name is Jesus) to take the betrothed virgin wives of all men before they marry their betrothed "husbands"and brake their maidenhead first, of all your King choses and then hand them back to their former husbands as they did in the old days? Have you ever read the true stories of the Kings? Is it really so "open", Jon?

What therefore God hath put together let not man put asunder.

 

We must preach Jeus to the world, we must never deny his name, but if we do not marry at all it is not a sin, there is no command to marry or how many too marry.

AGAIN: Jon, they need to get OUT of the marriage business ALL-TO-GETHER and hand it back to the TRUE CHURCH. AGAIN: MARRIAGE IS AN INSTITUTION OF GOD - NOT CAESAR.

 

 

Again: I WILL say that we could stand to learn alot from our brothers and sisters in the middle-east and countries around the world who understand the meaning of the word "survival" and have practiced the custom of marriage for thousands of years in cultures much older than those of North America. In North America we pretend to take care of our own by handing our misfortunates over to the "SYSTEM of the BEAST" that owns all of us if we should fail to unplug from the system and plug into the LIVING WORD. I am telling my brothers and sisters to plug into JESUS. They don't have to listen to me but I think that is good advice. God is JUST and HE is good. We must not lean on our own understanding with respect to godly marriage but look to ALL of the scriptural examples our LORD and SAVIOUR left for us in the SOLA SCRIPTURA and adhere to them in their FULLNESS. Sometimes things do not seem fair to us but the Lord knows what is fair. Handing over our social problems to women and children and lesbians and catamites and sodomites will not improve anything. We need to start standing on ALL (not some) of the promises of God and we need to return to the ancient land marks. - JT

 

Jon:  No, we have nothing to learn from Islam and that is for the most part the people your are referring to.  The profane place God spoke about on the holy mount is the Islamic temples.  Islam hates it women, no love flows from their laws. 

 

Well Jon, despite the fact that you disagree with the above green letters written by me, North America is going to stand TO LEARN ALOT FROM ISLAM in 26 mos. The profane place, as you put it, is phallic symbol of TRINITARIAN ROMANISM to be brought down to it's timely death! And I will tell you another thing concerning your so-called "POWERS THAT BE" that sit upon the SEVEN HILLS to promote the exploits of that HARLOT called BABYLON aka JEZEBEL... THE REAL POWERS THAT BE are going to take your trinity jeuice away because ISLAM KNOWS that GOD IS ONE! Now this does NOT make me a MUSLIM, sir... BUT if you are indeed even partly of that same sort of sanctimonious PURITANICALLY PAGAN material that I continue to keep smelling in your posts, then it would stand to reason why you support the troops: You are a fascist. I want you to know something: I was angry because a certain puritan called my wife a whore when I know for a fact I had taken a virgin to wife. If a virgin marrys she has not sinned. Even your own perversion admits this much.

 

You know, I have many Lebanese friends. Some are Muslim. The husbands loves his wives like you do not even know, my friend. The husband of one I know does surely love his own children even more than I can describe and provides well for them. I saw how he came in the door from work one day when I was there on business. His own respectable wife opened the door to me. The was no question in my mind as to whether she was a lady. NO SIR. YOU ARE SURELY MISTAKEN. I respect this man. I do him honor of respect as your perversion even says I must do and so does my AKJV. WHY?

 

BECAUSE JESUS (not juice) says it is HONORABLE. At least these KNOW that God is one. HOW dare you speak of the place of profanity while the POPE YET LIVES! Jon, you need help and I will be praying for you. You are my new burden. Are you Roman Catholic by any chance, Jon?

 

While you are contemplating your next point of vacilation, I will give you a post to look over wherein I address a certain pastor's wife who thought herself quite justified in calling my wives "whores" only because neither one of them desires to divorce me for having two wives; but both of them are content to remain as they are. Of a truth, I will tell you that I fine with this also, but I am not at ease with a filthy woman declaring herself a pastor's wife, who thinks she is so pure and holy that she believes that she has the authority to call my faithful wives whores. Either we follow what is written in the scripture or we do not. So far, your argument isn't even weak. It isn't even an argument. Friend, do you not see what you have been doing?

 

Jon: Following the whole word and not adding to it, what men desire.

 

Jon, if you were following the WHOLE WORD and not only partial truth, if you did know JESUS, in spirit and in truth, you would also understand and discern the things of the spirit. You would know where that place was that you just spoke of. You would know what the antichrist and the false prophet are, and you would know that the reason our LORD JESUS (that is His name in English, Jon) suffers the sons of Ishmael this blindness is BECAUSE HE wants to gather the KINGS OF THE EARTH to DEVOUR THE HARLOT!!! THINK ABOUT IT. Don't get me wrong, Jon. I love you like a brother, and I'm telling you to go change your underwear because it's beginning to show. You need to be set free from the powers of the Harlot, Jon. You need to return to THE FATHER'S HOUSE and become a True Worshipper of GOD! THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BUT GOD! HIS NAME IS JESUS.

 

 

You too, are beinging to waver like a woman in her distress and travail. The scriptures also speak of this. Now I am truly not trying to insult you, Jon. I am praying that God opens your eyes. Do not think that godly women will respect you more for lifting up the standard of monogamy. Sadly, I learned this bitter lesson in my youth. Women respect men even less when they vacilate. There are haughty and naughty women in the world, Jon. Take charge and never suffer a froward woman with a filthy mouth, even if she calls herself a pastor's wife.

 

Jon:  I have a wife scan, whom I love more than my own life, I always did, even before we were married 24 years ago.  I need no other, want no other and we were both virgins when we married.  That at the ages of 23 and 22, I do not need anyone to tell me what God already showed me.

 

J.T. : I married the wife of my youth in the spring of 1982. She is still my wife to this day. She is a few years younger than me. I honored her as I would have even honored a virgin. We lived together and did not even join for a long time. But that is personal. She was a victim of much abuse as a child, at the hands of perfidious foster parents. I regret that I did not listen to my LORD sooner but my HUSBANDMAN is most merciful.

 

All the while my Lord put women before me and so did the enemy... women that needed help... women that were good friends... NOT ONCE did I ever understand what was going on. Thousands of propositions Jon, were not good. Also here, on the internet... even yet I would not sucumb, even when these were as very filthy women toward me. Working as an online gaming administrator puts a man in a rather strange position. I no longer do this. 

 

God knows I can truly be trusted to honor WIVES (plural) to the end, Jon. Not "hit and run" Jon, but to the end. I was called to marriage a long, long time ago but I did not understand what this meant for me. Now I was indeed formed in my own mother's womb to become a married man. Not all men are. Not all women are. I accept this. Sometimes I am very tempted to envy the truly celibate of God, but I know this is wrong. Each of us has our gifts in JESUS. I should have understood this sooner, but alas; the sins of my youth ruled over me then. (So did ungodly men and women - not excluding my own parents at that time.) Now when I was a child, I only thought as a child. Sadly, I was forced to grow up fast. We all do have our regrets but I look to the Joy that is in Jesus for showing me the error of my way and to help me teach the GOSPEL according to His GRACE in the good ministry of FULL BIBLE TRUTH. Yes, they say that those who can't do ... TEACH... BUT I must walk the talk. I may not be the best patriarch, but I now know why my LORD opened my eyes and why I must share MY LORD AND HUSBANDMAN with as many as it should please MY LORD and SAVIOUR. Neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man in HIM. GOD IS ONE.

 

Let your electricity guy puke if He will, brother, I am in LOVE with my LORD and KING and MASTER, and I do declare that NOT ONE OF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE JEALOUS OVER ME or MY JESUS!

 

YA'LL ARE PERVERTED IN YOUR PER-VERSIONS! YEA, YOUR MINDS ARE GONE AFTER THE FLESH! YE CANNOT DISCERN THE SPIRIT! SO YOU DO ACCUSE ME OF PERVERSION AS YOU SPEW FORTH YOUR OWN VOMIT FROM YOUR NEW AGE TRANSLATIONS! DO YE NOT KNOW THAT GODLY MARRIAGE IS OF THE SPIRIT??? HOW MANY PERSONS (PLURAL) ARE IN THE BRIDE OF THE LAMB?

 

DID ABRAHAM COMMIT ADULTERY WHEN HE TOOK HAGAR TO WIFE?

 

DOES JESUS THE BRIDEGROOM MEAN TO COMPARE HIMSELF TO A MAN OPENING HIS DOOR TO A BROTHEL? READ YE, MATTHEW CHAPTER 25.

THEN TELL ME... WHERE IS THE LAW? I WANT TO READ IT.

 

WHERE IS THE LAW THAT SAYS "ONLY ONE WIFE" AND WHY DOES THE CHANGELESS ONE SAY "TWO WIVES" TWELVE TIMES, NEVER TO CALL IT ADULTERY OR FORNICATION? MY LORD IS NOT BLIND! DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT HE "WINKED" AT THIS? I THINK NOT. YE IGNORANT, YE BLIND!

LOOK AT OUR DIVORCE RATES AND LOOK AT THE MUSLIM DIVORCE RATE. THEY MAY NOT BE DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT BUT THE WRITING IS NO THE WALL FOR ALL TO READ, YE DOGS! YE ADULTERERS! YE FORNICATORS! YE PROUD! YE PRETENDERS! YE BLASPHEMERS! AND YE JUDGE ISLAM?? O, MY LORD HAVE MERCY! LOOK TO YOUR POPE!

 

p.s. the "pastor's wife" was wrong to call names and to judge.

 

JT:  SPOKEN like a man of God. A few glimmers of hope sparkle on the horizon!

 

 God bless you and your house in the knowledge of Jesus, the Only Wise God!

 

THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BUT GOD! HIS NAME IS JESUS.

Jon: Oh, well there is no point to this...

Do you mean that, Jon? Are you quitting? Are you already admitting defeat so soon? The Puritan woman called the "pastor's wife" put up a better fight than you did but in the end, she said pretty much the same thing: Yup, no point in trying to refute the Word of God, Jon. The Full Bible Truth is just not so easily refuted. In fact, if it is indeed the Full Bible Truth, and not the perverted ASV NKJV NWO (pick your per-version) modern twisting of the truth, you will be able to prove scripturally that a man can LAWFULLY have what GOD calls "TWO WIVES". You cast a blind eye to many of the more solid points being made here by Robert and myself as though these facts were never even stated, and then nit-pick on the technicalities and semantics that are open to indefinite debate only because they are subject to opinion. Jesus called this straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. I have done the same thing myself from time-to-time. Gnat straining is easy to spot and it is also easy enough to forgive. We are all human.

Now I will be among the first here to agree that everyone is entitled to their opinions and personal biases even though they may not be based on fact. Yes, they have a right to be voluntarily ignorant, bigoted, and biased... And yes, they have every right to be wrong too �?but this still does not make them right. If you simply admitted that you want to keep your personal bias and dogma despite the facts, and despite what is written in the Holy Bible about marriage, you would be honest at least. Why not just be honest and admit that you love your prejudice and want to keep it? Now I don't believe that just because a person has a "right" to be wrong that others should be FORCED to embrace that bigoted person's choice of delusion, do you? I think  that this is immoral, that it is oppressive, and that it is antichrist. However this is not opinion based on fact: My opinion, in this case, is completely BASED on SCRIPTURE, SOLA SCRIPTURA, and this fact is irrefutable; so the opinions that I present (and the ones that you challenge) will not change the fact that they are based on scriptural FACTS that you keep ignoring; even if my opinions may not be completely accurate. Lest anyone accuse me of FORCING my choice of marriage on others please be advised that I do NOT AT ALL insist that anyone ever take a second spouse unless they are called of God to do so. (You need the Holy Ghost before you can say with any certainty what you are called to in the Lord.) Not all are called to marriage. Not all are called to be the husband of one wife either. Some men actually DO HAVE the gift of celibacy. lol I try not to envy them �?some days it isn't so easy. God knows best.

I still maintain that my opinions do have more basis in fact than the opinions and the conjecture that you have offered here so far. You challenge my opinions but you ignore the facts. This is easier for you, I will agree. Still, you fail to address the facts on which I base my opinions. Most of what Robert and I have been stating here is based on irrefutable scriptural facts: Such as the fact that GOD called the wives (plural)of men in the scripture "wives". Now God didn't call these women whores, or prostitutes, or adultresses, or harlots, or any of those things that would show them to be in dishonor; rather HE HONORS them by calling them "WIVES". That is only one fact. Here is another: In every case where GOD called them "wives" (plural) in the scripture (i.e./ "two wives") not once does He ever speak against these marriages to call them "Adultery", "Putting away", "Divorcement", "Fornication", or... SIN!!! < No, not once does God call it that.

Fact: God did indeed bless Abraham's union with Hagar and not once did He call it "adultery" or "fornication". Do you refute this fact? Does the scripture say that Abraham disobeyed God by joining to Hagar? Please don't say that "it is interpreted". All kinds of things are interpreted �?where is it written? Twelve times God calls them "TWO WIVES" and honors them as such. (Marriage is honorable in all, right?). Yet not once does God say, "I condemn this marriage" or, "I will only tolerate this evil practice of keeping wives without putting any of them away for a short while, before I change my moral position on marriage"; or, "This is adultery and I'm just winking at it right now because I want to keep my people guessing as to whether I approve of it or not." That is ridiculous. Never ONCE does GOD say this directly against what HE repeatedly calls "TWO WIVES" IN ALL of theTWELVE EXAMPLES LISTING "TWO WIVES" ! Please don't tell me that GOD wouldn't have said anything about it if He didn't like it. Is GOD luke warm??? Does He condemn adultery and fornication only to say that He tolerates it in marriage? Of course not! He would be contradicting Himself if He said that! Jon, you cannot have it both ways... either God acknowledges and honors "TWO WIVES" or He does not. Your arguments become increasingly familiar (almost verbatim) to those robotic replies steeped in the repititious mediocrity of rote memorization and pat answers of a popular cult leader. Come out of her.

Jon: You know the main verse! Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so. ASV from the start it was one on one, later on the word says some started to take more than more, God allowed this, but he did not start it himself.

This is what I mean about the robotics of rote memorization. The Puritan did the same. The scripture is true enough in and of itself. Unfortunately it does not address your target. It misses it as far as the east is from the west. Robert and I are debating if godly marriage is still lawful in the eyes of God today or not. I know this sounds like a ridiculous debate and in many ways it is. What God calls "wives" are wives indeed. We should just all agree that GOD is the CHANGLELESS ONE and that He has never changed His mind about what marriage is. Why are you debating putting away? Putting away is not the topic of this debate. The topic of this debate is precisely the opposite of what you have just presented above. The topic of this debate is whether or not it is LAWFUL IN THE SIGHT OF GOD to KEEP ONE'S WIVES �?NOT PUT AWAY WIVES. Robert and I likely don't agree that it is right to put away a wife without cause; alas, when a wife PUTS AWAY her husband she isn't exactly leaving him much choice now, is she? That is why God PUT AWAY His Spiritual Wives. (Jeremiah 3:8 AKJV) REMEMBER: They put Him away first. One might think that this alone should be His cause but it is not. JESUS follows His own law to the letter. Now Jesus did have cause even to resort to divorcement. I have told you this before: Jesus addressed the matter on this wise concerning the question of the Pharisees: He spake on this wise of divorcement. There was no divorcement in the beginning. Evenso, HIS spiritual wives were unclean.

When that happens it's usually time to start thinking about DIVORCEMENT just as JESUS did. Christ could not CONTRADICT JESUS (the FATHER). He HAD to allow for the EXCEPTION in Deuteronomy 24:1-3 AKJV. There is in FACT an exception because that is what JESUS called it. Let's not confuse godly marriage for adultery and STAYING TOGETHER for putting away! GOD "started" ONE FLESH and this is what is honorable in all if it is indeed godly. Abraham became ONE FLESH with Hagar (the mother of his FIRST BORN SON) and Abraham became ONE FLESH with Sarah (the mother of the second son). In BOTH cases he married (became one flesh) with each woman: the BONDWOMAN (SLAVE) who was in bondage to Abraham and the FREEWOMAN (WIFE OF HIS YOUTH).

Jon: So do you like this better? they all say the same thing.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: KJV

Much better Jon, thankyou for using the original authorized translation in the English tongue. I am grateful. No, they are not "the same" and I already proved that. If they were indeed the same, they would both say the exact same thing, verbatim. That is why I am not big on multiple translations and versions: it is too much play room for the devil. An ordinance from God is a very powerful thing. Now the key to those verses you just mentioned is this: " For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

Now surely we know that not all things holding power are directly ordained of God or there could not possibly be any sin in the world today. In the end, however, it all plays into the hands of God; this much I will surely agree to. However Paul is not referring to all the powers that exist when he mentions the "powers that be". No, he is referring to those "powers" which are powers indeed; and God suffers rulers over men who are rulers indeed. Notice: "... For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil". Jon, is Sodomy evil? Is "same-sex" marriage evil? Is the endorsing of rape and murder and the slaughter of innocent little children evil? Jon, do you believe these to be the "powers that be" ordained of God? Is satan also ordained of God to be a terror of good works? God forbid! Does Satan have power? Where are the GOOD RULERS of God found? Who are these rulers Paul speaks of? Constantine? The Pope? You appear to have ignored much of what I stated in my previous post. Perhaps you should scroll up and read it again if you don't have a clue as to WHOM the "powers that be" are. I am a passionate man, but I can be patient too.

Jon: Unless you can find a command from God, you must follow his command to obey Government authority.

Jesus: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Exactly which "Government" authority do you refer to Jon? Are you suggesting that God ordained the powers of Sodomy and Mammon to rule over the Lord's people also? Not everyone in secular government is in GOD'S GOVERNMENT. Only those who are in GOD'S GOVERNMENT are to be obeyed, Jon. Anything that they might command that is not found in the Government of God need not be obeyed if it runs contrary to God's law. Do you know what runs contrary to God's law? A: Adding new laws. If you perceive these as your "rulers" then they are your rulers indeed; but If GOD calls them rulers, then we can be rest assured that they are rulers. It is essential that we call things as God calls them. This is what I mean about the GENUINE, ACTUAL, POWERS THAT BE. Satan is not genuine or actual. He is the Great Pretender. He is the deceiver. He has no genuine power that he can call his own. Do you not agree, or do you regard satan as one of the "powers that be" ? JESUS grants His annointed sufficient discernment to determine just who His ministers are, so we are without excuse to blame our politicians on the sad state of affairs existing in our world. The LORD also grants us the ability to affect change. "Resist the devil and he will flee from you." but also, "Resist not evil." See Jon, there REALLY is a difference. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:7 AKJV)

Jon: " What God only allows can be forbidden by Government."

JT: Where is this written?

Jon, are you even aware of how deplorably ignorant this statement is? God allows for honesty. Has God ordained secular government to forbid honesty? God allows for charity and chastity. Does the "Government" deem the right to forbid it? God allows worship. Does the Government have our Lord's blessing to forbid worship also? God also allows murder, vandalism, rape, and theft. So my point here, is that your point is moot. It doesn't prove a thing but merely states that anything that happens is allowed, by God, to happen. Well, I don't argue with that. The sun shines on the living and the sun shines on the dead.

Hence we read such Puritanical logic:

'Just because God allowed it doesn't mean that He APPROVED of it.'

WHAT RUBBISH! Judge in yourselves: What is God more likely to allow? What He disapproves of? ...Or something that He honors. Would He not be more inclined to DISALLOW the things He hates? (This is not a trick question.) Yet we never read one example in scripture where our LORD condemns the practice of having more than one wife on the merit of bigamy - ever. The burden of proof is not on me, but on my criticizers to produce the law against it and I am telling you that against such there is no law. Allow me to expound a little on this LEGALIST doctrine of permissions: God allows for a great deal in this dispensation of grace. Now that does not mean that we will not be answerable for the consequences of our choices. Evenso, it is what GOD... RECOGNIZES... what GOD... HONORS... what GOD... BLESSES... what GOD... BUILDS... SANCTIFIES... (need I go on?) Are you getting the idea?

This is what GOD approves!

Please allow for the fact that GOD also ALLOWS for GOOD THINGS. Does God disapprove of GOOD THINGS? THIS ARGUMENT HOLDS NO WATER. IT IS A RE-BAPTISING DOCTRINE BECAUSE IT LEAKS. It is without foundation. OBSERVE:

'Just because God allowed it doesn't mean that He DID NOT APPROVE of it EITHER.'

(continued)

15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. STOP.

"BONDSERVANTS"? YOU MEAN SLAVERY? WOW. MY VERSION SAYS "SERVANTS" AND YOUR BIBLE SPEAKS OF "BOND SERVANTS". BOND SERVANTS ARE SLAVES IN BONDAGE TO A SLAVE MASTER. NO WONDER YOU CONFUSE GODLY MARRIAGE WITH SLAVERY! JON, I NEARLY FEEL SORRY FOR YOU. GET A REAL BIBLE. YOUR BIBLE WANTS TO PUT YOU IN BONDAGE TO HOMOSEXUALS AND LESBIANS. 

Jon:  Hardly, bond servants are sevrants by choice, which is true of Christians.  We are bond servants to God, however your version still says servants regardless.  Also how did you get to marriage from this? this passage is not about marriage, it is about obedience to Government.

Well Jon, I was trying to appeal to your own sense of reason and logic here. You see, this particular thread has a LEADER BOARD. It reads: What is The Monogamy Myth? That means this thread is about MARRIAGE and a certain MYTH about MARRIAGE that needs to be dispelled once and for all. Since you were the one who introduced the topic of OBEDIENCE to satan, I just thought I would make a personal observation and express my own opinion based on my personal observation. Of course, it is my own personal preference and choice to DISOBEY the devil just as my best example, Christ Jesus the REBEL, rebelled against satan and DISOBEYED him. No, he did not obey the prince of the air; instead He disobeyed the god of this world and even told that devil to get behind Him. Now it might be possible that Hagar was indeed in BONDAGE to Abraham of her own, personal choice. We do not see any evidence of this in the scripture, but it is evident that she was a BONDWOMAN. This means that she was IN BONDAGE to Abraham. Yes, she was his wife and his concubine and his slave but Sarah was no BONDWOMAN. There are slaves who are slaves by choice but I believe GOD'S VERSION of the HOLY BIBLE puts it correctly when He calls His people His "SERVANTS" eventhough they are in bondage to Him by CHOICE. I suppose in the loosest sense we could call ourselves "SLAVES" of God if we are truly His servants, provided that we understand that this IS of our own free choice. After this, there is no turning back. Remember Lot's wife. I would say that it is a consideration �?especially in marriage �?and a good admonishing for those who consider marriage without understanding just who the MASTER in the marriage is, and JUST who is in bondage to the MASTER. The Puritanical logic says, "A man cannot have two wives because a man cannot serve two masters." The Puritan errs, not knowing the scriptures. The Puritan is confused. The woman was made for the man �?nbsp;not the man for the woman. Let it be a warning to the young ladies who dream about marriage. They have verily entertained the idea of serving a master in the flesh for the rest of their days.

17 Honour all men. UH-OH... YOUR BIBLE SAYS "ALL PEOPLE". SEE WHERE IT SAYS,  "HONOR ALL SODOMITES AND LESBIAN CHILD MOLESTERS FOR THIS IS RIGHT IN THE SIGHT OF GOD IF THEY ARE IN GOVERNMENT" ? NO THANKYOU, I THINK I'LL STICK WITH MY GOOD OLD AKJV.

Love the brotherhood. Amen. Funny... your NKJV says the same thing... just like the devil to mix truth with lies, huh?

Jon:  Honour goes with love, you seem to think there is a lot of diffence here, but there isn't. 

Jon, do you know what the brotherhood is? Do you believe it means "all men" ? Trust me, there is a difference.

 If you think you should not honour "HONOR ALL SODOMITES AND LESBIAN CHILD MOLESTERS FOR THIS IS RIGHT IN THE SIGHT OF GOD IF THEY ARE IN GOVERNMENT then why do you think you should love them?

You know Jon, this is a very substantial question and I am glad you asked me. I love Sodomites, Lesbians, and Child Molesters because they are human beings who are plauged by demons and totally messed up. They need serious help and the majority of them are serious victims of abuse themselves. This is likely the most substantial thing you have stated in your entire post. Now we come to the definition that gives the sword of truth that RAZOR sharp edge. Jon, there is indeed a difference between HONOR and LOVE; but we HONOR the sinner, not the sin (and that came from your "monogamy only" founder by the way) just as we LOVE the sinner and not the sin. Adding a "new law" to God's word is a sin. God actually condemns it. MONOGAMY ONLY is a new law designed to create division among brothers and to control the masses and to make merchandise of men, women, and children. It is a sinful law. It is not a godly law. I don't have to honor it because God never said it and God never honored this man-made law either. God honors both ONE WIFE and TWO WIVES. God is good. God also honors wives (plural). I am glad that you recognize the fact that I believe we should love sinners, but that doesn't mean we should love the world and the things that are in it (such as sinful laws), neither do I believe that we should honour the god of this world as though he represented "the POWERS THAT BE". He does not. He is a liar, a murderer, and a thief. Have you been following the news lately? You see, there is another part of that quotation of mine you that you glossed over... "IF THEY ARE IN GOVERNMENT". The point I was trying to make was that JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE CONSTITUANTS OF SECULAR GOVERNMENT does not mean we must honor their laws if those laws are sinful. Their political status in the eyes of the world is immaterial if they are passing oppressive and ungodly laws by adding these laws spawned from the pit to GOD's LAW. There is no scripture commanding us to obey the god of this world.

Fear God. Honour the king.

Who is your KING, JON? I KNOW WHO MY KING IS. WHO IS YOUR KING?

Jon: Jesus is my King, but here we have rules as well and you are disobeying your King (Jesus) when you disobey them.  There are things we must do to obey God rather then men, but you are not obeying God in marriage when you do what man made for his own purpose.

If Jesus were your KING you would take full responsibility for your morality and not permit the god of this world to dictate your morality for you so that you could point the finger (as they did in the garden) and cop-out on your moral responsibility to the word of God. To my knowledge, nobody in this group is making a "new law" demanding that all men should have more than one wife. No, we honor what God honors: Wife and Wives. God made marriage (one flesh) for His own purpose. He made a covenant with Abraham even to tell him that in Isaac shall thy seed be called. God did ordain this in the establishment of TWELVE TRIBES and accomplished it through JACOB called ISRAEL and his FOUR WIVES. GOD HONORED ALL of JACOB's wives. Not once did GOD tell Jacob that it was wrong for him to have those wives, and GOD does not change (the Puritan reminds me). No, GOD HONORED those wives... BLESSED those wives... and called them "WIVES" �?NOT "adulteresses", NOT "fornicators", NOT "whores", NOT "harlots" and GOD did HONOR HIS PROMISE TO ABRAHAM just as He ordained it from the beginning. Now show me where GOD suddenly changed His mind about "TWO WIVES". Likewise, in the New Testament, so does the BRIDEGROOM also honor FIVE WISE VIRGINS in our LORD'S own description of the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Yes, it would seem that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. I agree that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.  

Jon, what man does and makes for his own purpose is very selfish indeed. There is a very substantial reason why the Romans wanted to control the populace with ENFORCED MONOGAMY but it was not a godly or good reason at all... I do not worship a "god of FORCES" as one in a certain place does. I worship a GOD of LOVE. I don't believe Jesus really wants me to be His "slave" although some would lead me to believe otherwise. I believe Jesus wants me to SERVE Him freely and as a cheerful servant of my Master and King, even of my own free will. Sometimes I ask MY LORD and HUSBANDMAN to put me in HIS BONDS because I know that my flesh is at enmity with Him. Saved people often forget this and I don't trust my flesh; but I, myself, am not this vessel that will perish with the using; therefore I have no confidence in my flesh. Jesus has blessed me with "TWO WIVES". Other men and women receive other blessings from GOD that I am not permitted by His grace. God forbid that I should be jealous OVER them and may my LORD never permit me to be jealous over Him either. I share my JESUS with all and especially with them that are His. I hope this helps, but as you stated... Oh, well there is no point to this... and you are correct after a fashion: GOD called it "TWO WIVES" twelve times in the scripture; He blessed, and loved, ordained, sanctified, built, added to, and honored it. Who are we to correct GOD for this and what is the point to this CORRECTION if we truly honor the LOVE OF GOD? None of us are His individual, "ONE and ONLY". JESUS is not a selfish GOD.

Be blessed in the knowledge of His Truth. His commandments are not grievous and His burden is light.

*NOTE: I want you to know that there is ONE THING about you that I especially admire in a brother:

 It is your commitment to LOVE.

GOD BLESS,

JT

This is a reply to Jon's last post that I read...

 Only adders add to the word.

They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah. Psalms 140:3

Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Genesis 49:17

Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; Psalms 58:4

Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. Psalms 91:13

 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Proverbs 23:32

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The serpant is more subtle than any other beast of the field... The adder is likewise a subtle advisary whose poison is deadly.

 

The wise man understands a proverb and keeps his Fathers Words close... knowing, that the Truth is the universal antidote for the adders poison.

 

Prophet.

Amen. Embracing the truth sounds easy enough to do, but without GOD it is truly impossible. Since the dawn of his creation mankind has been adding falsehood to to fact. The Adam (mankind) made the wrong choice and hearkened unto the wrong voice and chose the wrong teacher; wherefore GOD gave the Adam a schoolmaster, the law, that the Adam would learn the consequences of choosing incorrectly and why life without GOD is futile.

 

I realize that much of the communication offered by me in this thread is harsh but I am learning and growing also. I love the LORD but my love is not nearly perfect. I find that sometimes it is necessary to be harsh when one is confronted with fallacy; but I am learning, even as you have learned, that love can make a large difference. 

 

GOD is not finished with me yet either, Ronald. You have been more help to me than I think you might realize; because you remind me of that love that I once knew when I was but a lad and I asked JESUS to come in and dwell in my heart. These are the last days and the love of many has waxed cold. Please continue pray for me that I do not forget that GOD is love. Your posts here are not made in vain and I am old enough now to bear in mind that I should heed the words of my elders. Please know that your work here is not in vain and that your contributions are highly esteemed.

 

GOD bless you.

 

Edward