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| From:  lotty467 (Original Message) | Sent: 12/08/2008 11:18 p.m. |
I'm posting this because I feel I have to simply state my overwhelming belief that these NPD character are simply dimwits. Dimwits of the first order. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this. I have read the literature, I have read the posts here, I have been involved with such a character, and I am absolutely certain that they are ignorant, stupid, and crass in terms of lack of personal graces. Our society has some blame for this. The success of our civilisation, the reservoir of knowlege and experience available to western society, and the miracle of mass production have all helped to make NPD by encouraging and enabelling easily-led impressionable individuals buy into the idea that they are better than they are. They go off on one. And the resultant damage we witness is like what you would expect if you gave a load of money and power to a stupid little kid. Involved with an N, there comes a point in all the craziness when you just have to stand back and say to your self that some thing is not right here, and slowly you begin to see, slowly, painfully, and then we get to the stage where we see the games, the traits, the gaslighting, etc, and for me I have to admit that I cannot fully grasp the low level of idiosy. Words are failing me now. I mean this, I do not have the vocubulary to describe the lowness. This is why we don't see it: it's too low. Never in a billion years would you expect anyone to behave in such a way. It beggars belief. I am not the brightest pixie in the forest, and I'm quite happy with that, but I know enough to state plainly that these people are merely monumentally stupid.......stupified people, like they are under the influence of alcohol, sort of thing. Absolute idiots in a world of their own, behaving in a way which they think is clever, but actually is just so idiotic it is crazy. For instance, I could slip out of my house now and throw paint stripper all over a neighbour's car, sneakily, and if I was as nuts/stupid as the N I would be thinking, 'Ah, how clever I am, that I can do this; hee, hee, he'll never suspect me because he thinks I am a friend and I have no reson to do this to him; ha, ha, I am so clever and everyone is so stupid'. This is what I mean, they operate in that way. There is no N on Earth going to own up to what goes on in their mind, because it is incredibly bonkers. This is why we don't see it, it's just too weird. The question is not what they do but WHY. Why would someone do that, say, to a neighbour's car for no reason? Why do they gaslight and screw with someone's mind who means them no harm? Why, because they are dimwits who miss the plot, and which life has made so easy for them that they go on an ego trip thinking they are better than they are, and not understanding the plot (to live life wise, just, and fair; to live life and enjoy the experience of being a decent human being, and to experience sharing and respect and enjoy such graces as trust and loyalty and honour and sacriffice for another, etc); because they are too stupid to realise the plot of life they draw blanks and become unhappy and become bitter and twisted and then they embark upon their nasty ways. They are stupid because anyone with any sense would not behave in such idiotic and nasty ways and indulge in such unrealistic pretence. Anyone with any sense knows that life is great (for all it's misery and strife), and wants the real deal. And you hear the arguement that they are clever...............balderdash. Any cleverness is mechanical, the result of training. These people are seriously lacking. I firmly am of the opinon that NPD is a result of stupidity (and it is stupidity because you never get very far with them in a discussion, them using one of an arsenal of techniques to evade what would reveal them as dimwits, which they employ, thinking they are being clever), but as I was saying, I firmly believe NPD is a result of stupidity given free rein by way of modern decadent society. I just needed to vent this. But it is more than that, because it is truely what I believe, the result of much consideration. Am I alone in this thinking? Can anyione see what I mean? Has anyone else come to this conclusion that they are basically dimwits facillitated by modern decadent society, who have missed the plot and are too insecure about themselves to say so and ask someone? |
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| | | From: Bugs6546 | Sent: 13/08/2008 3:48 p.m. |
I think you might be on to something here. Thinking in terms of NPD is new to me, but the well, stupidity, is not. Neither is the chaos, confusion, dysfunction, anxiety, and craziness of dealing with this kind of person and not understanding why things are the way they are. The person I know is/was a friend, but I can see where there can not be true friendship. People around her are seen as means to an end, they are used. Everything comes down to that, and done so cleverly you often can't really see it for what it is until after the fact --- ahhhh, it happened AGAIN. It still seems cruel for me to think these things, but there is no other answer. Others saw it long ago, even her own daughter is NC. She considers herself more intelligent than others, she is motivated to the point of obsession to achieve what she wants, go out ahead of the crowd and takes on things others won't touch, loves publicity and drama. And then loves to share the drama, which is nearly always negative drama which other people would avoid like the plague, with others via email and in conversation. I'm NC as of one month, and it is a start. I am feeling better every day. Thanks for writing this! |
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| | | From: femfree | Sent: 15/08/2008 5:25 p.m. |
Hi Lotty. Your message is brilliant and your understanding of these Ns and Ps is rivetingly accurate. Like a light bulb with a short circuit that keeps flickering, it can't stop, it is unable to function because of it's short circuit our Ns are much the same. It is deeply ingrained and unable to stop either. I'll never figure out why they would cause so much damage in life - many end up dismal failure - not all - many appear to succeed in life trampling others, but these Ns overlook the damage they do. It's a blessing that we sit back, when our wounds are healed, our recovery done that we wonder why they would spend so much time in unproductive pursuit of their impulse and ego driven behaviour. And, if the modern decadent society provides the camouflage for them, then modern decandent society is adript not knowing when to say No. A terrible thing I think. This is also a tragedy that really bothers me. A member recently sent me this interesting quote by Max Lucado Let any rifraff knock on your door, and we throw it open. Anger shows up, and we let him in. Revenge needs a place to stay, so we have him pull up a chair. Pity wants a party, so we show him the kitchen. Lust rings the bell, and we change the sheets on the bed. Don't we know how to say no? |
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| | | From: KIMBO958 | Sent: 22/08/2008 7:17 p.m. |
Lotty.
Oh yea.Dont get me started on his stupidity.
You are correct. XN would love to connive and plot and scheme to get back at people. It was stupid the amount of time he would waste on nonsense. Just to be the best when in the long run - he looked the stupidest. I would lie to him all the time at the end of the D&D and he would believe me.
When I moved out I left everything he gave me. He sent me an email telling me I left a lot of stuff there. Not once did he look at the stuff I left and think “Hmm. This is weird. It’s all of the stuff I gave her. Perhaps she planned it that way.�?Because he is stupid.
Here is a perfect example. I listed a bookcase on Craig’s list that was in our house that was mine. He answered the ad with an email address he used with me once, which I remembered. He forgot he used it. HE wanted to know where the bookcase was and how much. You jerk. Stand up and look at it. It is in your house. I ignored his response but my friend and I had a good laugh. He forgot he sent me an email a long time ago using that email address. Later on I asked him if he saw any furniture on Craig’s List and he said “NO�? So on top of being stupid he lied. I almost said “you jerk you replied to my listing�?but let it go. It was too classic a case in stupidity.
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| | | From: KIMBO958 | Sent: 22/08/2008 7:22 p.m. |
He also told me he did not register to vote because he did not want people to find him???? What people?
Well, I did a criminal background check and he has a record for assault. Which means he is a felon. Which means he can’t vote. He told me that stupid story. And to this day he doesn’t know I know about this record. Did he think I would believe his STUPID story about people not finding him???
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Lotty, I totally agree. My belief is that their stupidity and ignorance stems from their delusional belief in themselves that they know everything. How stupid is that????!!! It gives me great pleasure to know that another poor soul, recently entranced by her, wises up to her true colors. Like a secret fishing hole, I take quiet pleasure in watching her f--k with trusting, innocent, gullible folk. Their lives are changed forever and she continues to wallow sickenly along on her path to nowhere. How will it all end? hahahaha I hope she never learns from her mistakes. All the rest of us are learning from her...and her stupid outrageous, ridiculous antics can be amusing. May the narcissist reign supreme in their small world and may the rest of us find their existence fodder for our laugh tracks and examples for our children. sistergone1 |
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| | | From: aegis37 | Sent: 29/08/2008 8:35 a.m. |
Hi Lotty, What a fascinating idea. Thanks for sharing it with us! I believe that our degrading society is responsible for a lot of Nish behavior. If people stood up and told N's that their selfishness is unacceptable I don't think we would be in these positions today. Things like right and wrong, morals, ethics, responsibility and shame are virtually gone in today's society. Instead what is valued is first impressions, win at all costs, and "I'm Ok. Your Ok." BS... Noone ever sat these Ns down and taught them that they aren't the center of the universe... Or that selfishness is a sin...Or that taking all you can suck out of a person without giving back is wrong. Yep, we live in a "can't be held accountable for their actions" sort of world and have been for decades. Now, I know myxn is very 'intelligent' by a lot of standards, but you are right..he is stupid. He can't see the looks ppl give him (or me when I was with him) when he would start to ramble on and on about how hard he worked, what a good guy he was, how he is different from other ppl... And he would talk about things like this to almost anyone. I think he just liked the sound of his own voice. I got to where I would cringe when he would engage someone in public because I knew the stares he would get and I'd be embarrassed for him. He never saw it, never got it. He was completely stupid about the effect his brags would have on other people. He might have been 'fact' smart but he was desperately socially stupid. Until you posted that I hadn't every thought of him and stupidity in the same sentence. I do believe you nailed it, though. Really great post, ty ~aegiss |
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| | | From: Amani | Sent: 23/09/2008 9:23 p.m. |
KIMBO: Your post about the bookcase made me laugh out loud. I read it to my mother and she laughed equally as hard! |
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Lotty, Thank you for posting what I have always felt, and thought about , and knew about, my past and present N-hubbies. My first N-hubby made pretty good grades in school, yet he did not have an ouce of common sense. He could never think for himself, and never made a decision without getting his entire cast of family and "friends" input. It's one thing to get some helpful, well-meaning advice from loved ones, but to be a grown man, and never decide anything on his own, is pretty weak to me. He never could admit to the possibility that he might actually be wrong about anything, and made damn sure that my opinions were ridiculed, insulted, and oftentimes just palin dismissed. My second husband ,(the one I presently have), seems to be the type who is capable of making good choices, yet he is very much influenced by others, and worries about what they might think. I have seen him, over the years, literally picking up other people's habits, or interests, and trying to reform to whatever behavior his pals, at the time, are doing. He'll say one thing, and if a person he admires says the opposite, he'll suddenly see things their way. I find it quite embarassing. It's like watching a small child who is trying too hard to "fit in". I find this to be a weakness, and total lack of individualism, and because I am so opposite from him, he tries to make me look like a jerk for speaking my OWN mind, and opinions, even if they are different from the so-called "norm". I'd rather have common sense, and my own mind over being boo smart any day. kitty  |
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Hi Lotty, Great post! I often thought that my xnh and my nm are stupid in a certain way. I suppose you could say their emotional IQ is pretty limited. They are crafty and "smart" in ways that normal people aren't. Like in how to use and degrade and hurt others. They are really sneaky too. They do this with expertise. However, when you see them for what they really are, they do seem repetitous and stupid. I think of them more as feral animals who can't control themselves. I also think that our Western society fosters N'ism by making stars out of people like the Paris Hiltons of the world. What I have seen here in the U.S. with this election is a polarization of the two parties, and to the extent that sometimes brings thoughts of the witch burning days of Salem with the zealots being the "good holy ones", and the non-zealots being "of Satan". This is scary to me, because the n's I have dealt with have had no empathy for anyone else, only their beliefs matter, and if they don't get their way, they rage and destroy. They feel entitled to do this too. Because they think they are superior. It seems that these days children are taught to think they are entitled to always having comfort and their needs immediately met. I have seen changes in young people since I first went into practice 30 years ago. Maybe I am just getting old (lol) and feel the youth are different, however sociologists have been writing about the new "entitled" generation. I think that N'ism has always been around, and thank goodness that now there is a name for it and an awareness in people that this is not "normal" behavior. Hugs, Had |
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| | | Sent: 26/10/2008 1:03 a.m. |
| This message has been deleted by the author. |
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Had,
Your post reminded me of this song:
Ways 2B Wicked
Ways To Be Wicked (performed by Lone Justice)
Honey tell me why you smile
When you see me hurt so bad
Tell me what I did to you babe
That could make you act like that
Yes I've been your fool before babe
And I probably will again
She ain't afraid to let me have it
You ain't afraid to stick it in
Yeah you know so many ways to be wicked
But you don't know one little thing about love
Yeah I can take a little pain
I could hold it pretty well
I can watch your little eyes light up
When you're walkin' me through hell
Yes I've been your fool before, babe
And I probably will again
She ain't afraid to let me have it
You ain't afraid to stick it in
Yeah you know so many ways to be wicked
But you don't know one little thing about love
Yeah those cobra eyes
Light with a smile
You take pride
In that devil down inside
I can take a little pain
I can hold it pretty well
I can watch your little eyes light up
When you're walkin' me through hell
Yeah I've been your fool before babe
And I probably will again
No you ain't afraid to let me have it
Honey you ain't afraid to stick it in
You know so many ways to be wicked
But you don't know one little thing about love
You know so many ways to be wicked
But you don't know one little thing about love
Written by Tom Petty and Mike Campbell.
Hugs,
-NO
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| | | From: lotty467 | Sent: 22/11/2008 2:31 p.m. |
I am just having a look around this old msn site for the last time. It is like an empty building which still echoes to all the human drama and emotion which has been played out here. Ill people, confused people, rolling up from an ordeal, in terrible shape, and being welcomed and cared for and loved and helped along the healing road of recovery and enlightenment. It has been a busy place, a place of busy work with a job to be done, and this vacated building still echoes to the toing-and-froing of of all the human love and drama which has been played out here. When I posted this rant about dimwits in modern society I did not expect any responses. I was delighted to have such wonderful responses, but I was not in any shape to make the responses to them which I wanted to make, though it had been in my mind to do so later, after I'd had a holiday and things. And now we are at a new site, so I have printed this out, and once settled-in I'm going to respond to these responses, not out of politeness, but because each response threw up interesting points and aspects which would be good to discuss. So hopefully we will all chat soon. I'll post on the Adult Children of Narcissists board. Lotty |
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| | | From: Geoffrey | Sent: 23/11/2008 2:34 p.m. |
In a way they're very smart but in a way there quite stupid. They're clever in finding ways of conning people and getting their trust but they make some really stupid/irrational claims and it doesn't seem to occur to them how they may be caught out (for some reason they don't seem to have any fear of being caught whereas I would be scared of being found to be lying). For example I had an N relative who claimed to be such a good swimmer and that she even raced against the sister of Dawn Fraser (one of Australia's most famous swimmers) but on one occassion she asked whether you could stand up in the pool of the place we were staying. When I said that you couldn't she said quietly to herself "oh no". I was a bit surprised to hear that from someone who claimed that she was such a good swimmer. She also claims to have worked for many government ministers and even says that she was even at the meeting at which a certain state premier resigned. Unfortunately for her that premier's biography happened to be in my school library and it said that he resigned in 1986. The only problem is that she married and moved interstate about five years earlier so there is no way that she could have been at that meeting. Unfortunately I have two narcissistic relatives. |
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| | | From: Nonda_37 | Sent: 23/11/2008 6:08 p.m. |
I love your description. The patterns seem to be fairly consistent w/N's. I was w/mine for 7 yrs, realized there was something wrong w/him w/in the 1st, but never found this diagnosis that explained everything until almost 2 yrs after splitting up.
I found mine especially confusing & he does vary from the typical N slightly. He IS actually a very intelligent human being. He's a computer programmer (I've read NPD runs ramped in this line of work), he plays guitar, sings, understands music theory and quantim physics. He's aspired to be a really good pool player (it brings him the narcissistic supply he doesn't get from his computer programming skills, cause only his boss gives him kudos there), he also plays poker well, and pretty much can learn anything he sets his mind to. But has a strange tendency to do things sloppily and half ass & claim that his way works just as good as doing it right & it's not worth the time or effort to do it any other way.
As characteristic of an N he somehow thinks his talents and intelligence make him better than everyone else in the universe, somehow entirely blind to the fact that other people in this world have talents and intelligence in areas where he is lacking them & other qualities that earn them at least the same respect that he thinks he deserves.
My first impression of him was that he was kind of nerdy ~ I had no interest in him at all. Once I did start getting to know him, I could see he was a little bit sensitive & insecure & kind of felt like if I treated him w/respect he would feel better about himself. Little did I realize this is just food that inflates his ego to a level beyond the imagination. Nor did I realize that he would never return this level of respect to me.
His varying on the typical N I think may lay in that he was sort of abandoned by his mother (according to him) & was raised by different families all being positive Christian people that taught him at least how to go through the motions of being a good moral person, and in that he has abandonment issues & has learned to go through the motions of being a kind, caring friend in order to keep his friends & to satisfy a deep longing of having the same deep connected relationships that normal people have w/each other. To this day, I'd have to say he at least comes across as a gentle & kind person w/a good heart ~ except his actions don't quite back it all up that he genuinely cares about other people's well being, he's incredibly inconsiderate for such a nice guy. He basically just cares that people stay in his life, accept him, & if they do that then he likes to believe that they think he's the greatest thing ever & they become important to him.
All of the narcissistic games, gaslighting, etc. are very mild & subtle. He's almost always happy and nice ~ if not happy, at least always calm. He would never scream obscenities at someone that crossed him, or ever really lose control of his emotions ~ at least not in front of anyone. He's extremely in control of himself ~ which made his behavior even more confusing to me. He truly seems to believe all of the reasons, justifications, & excuses & he is an artist at arguing & using "logic" to back himself up. Even though I knew he was wrong, I would find myself unable to argue w/him why he was wrong & I was right, because he would set the rules of the argument & what was necessary to prove the point & he would make it impossible for me to win.
The only things I can think of that he may have done that match what you described (doing it just because you can) would have to be simply leaving messes for other people to clean up. Like he just wanted to see if he could make you do it. I wouldn't & he never made an issue of it, he pretended that he just didn't care about the mess & if I didn't either, it could just sit there forever. It would usually sit there til he paid his daughter to clean it up. But my problems w/him were mainly generated by the fact that I would confront him about the little things and the big things he did/didn't do that really bothered me. He didn't like any one insinuating that he EVER did anything wrong & would go to great lengths to prove that there was something wrong w/you for thinking that of him.
So this very intelligent person, is he stupid? I'd have to say that I always thought that he was a complete moron. The stupidity comes in at the basis or the core of his nature of thinking. That they truly believe they are better than everyone else and that there is nothing wrong w/them or their behavior. He had the gall to argue w/someone over a subject they were very familiar & he knew basically nothing as if his guesses held more weight then their knowledge ~ boy is that the most irritating thing!
They're not good at hearing or learning if it means confronting their own shortcomings & growing into better people.
Really sad. After 2 yrs I'm still working on letting go of resentment toward my N & understanding the nature of his disorder is helping me. I'm still a little confused, but I'm learning to walk away from it & not look back. He's made a couple of gestures to be friends again. I used to reject him just to get back & to hurt him the way he hurt me, but I'm getting over that now & am now rejecting his friendship because even though I believe that he really wants to be a good person & a good friend, he is incapable of it & I don't need to give any more time or energy to someone who will just suck it from me like a vampire. |
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| | | From: lotty467 | Sent: 24/11/2008 11:44 a.m. |
Geoffrey and Nonda. I hear exactly what you are saying. We are all singing from the same hymn sheet. I hope we will thrash it all out on the other site. All the responses on this thread have confirmed my own personal feelings about what an N is. I would like us to take this idea further. For me, the N and the stupidity is all part of a greater thing: the N in modern society. Sociologists and psychologists are aware of this, and some thories actively encourage it because dimwits casing after a golden carrot which they can never get enough of is just what they want of many citizens. So to discuss it in full makes me feel like a dissident, which I'm not. Selfishness is promoted as a way of life in the same way that military deterents are promoted by world powers in order to promote peace. It is no secret. I have heard such theories on tv. But the N is stupid, but this needs defining. I could go to a hotel with an N and let them have first pick of a room (us each having our own room), and the N would go for the room with posh windows, not realising that the room is direct onto a busy main road, whereas the other room at the back with the plain windows is peaceful and quite. The N needs to be taught what to look for, rather than having the faculties to make clever choice off the cuff, in a situation not before encountered. I believe the N does not have this ability. If they do something clever it is only because of having been taught that, not having thought it out for themselves. And so they are always trying to give the illusion that they can think for themselves, or get out of the way of someone who can see that they are frauds. All very interesting. I'll print out your responses and have a good read of them. Cheers, Lotty. |
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