MSN Home  |   Hotmail  |   Shopping  |   People & Groups
Windows Live ID  Web Search:    
go to XtraMSNGroups 
Groups Home  |  My Groups  |  Help  
 
NARCISSISTIC_PERSONALITY_DISORDER[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Home  
  Info For Members  
  Message Boards  
  _______�?_______  
  Message Forums  
  General  
  N Relatives  
  Divorce/Custody  
  Anything Goes  
  ______♥_______  
  Pictures  
    
  ______�?_______  
  THE NARCISSIST  
  Is Your Partner a Narcissist?  
  _______�?_______  
  Religious & Spiritual Guidance ++  
  20 Traits of Malignant Narcissism  
  _______�?________  
  N LINKS 1  
  Page 2  
  Page 3  
  Page 4  
  _______�?________  
  Who Gets Targeted  
  Our Caring Instinct  
  Women Who Love Psychopaths  
  _______�?________  
  THE PSYCHOPATH  
  NPD vs AsPD  
  Problems Mistaken for NPD/AsPD  
  Mental Disorders  
  HE SAID WHAT??  
  HE DID WHAT???  
  RED FLAGS  
  _______�? _______  
  Links for GUYS 1  
  Links for GUYS 2  
  _______�?_______  
  Obsessive Thinking  
  _______�?________  
  Questions to Dr. Vaknin  
  Dr. V's Resources  
  Resources 2  
  Dr. V's Snapshots 1  
  " Snapshots 2  
  Relationship Abuse  
  Case Studies 1  
  ______�?_________  
  Abuse Tactics  
  Domestic Violence  
  Effects of Abuse  
  _______�?________  
  Rebuttals from NPs  
  _______�?________  
  Translation Guide  
  Do they admit they're wrong?  
  Devalue & Discard  
  _______________  
  PROJECTION  
  Hoovering 101  
  _______�? ________  
  Abuse Management  
  BullyProof Yourself  
  BOUNDARIES  
  ______ ♥________  
  LEAVING  
  Leaving, Now What?  
  _______�?________  
  ï¿½?NO CONTACT  
  NC Management  
  Letting Go  
  DETACHING  
  _______�?________  
  â–ºSurvival Skills I  
  Survival Skills 2  
  _______♥________  
  Smear Campaign  
  Stalking  
  Critical Errors  
  The Glass House  
  _______♥________  
  DIVORCE/CUSTODY  
  Page 2  
  Page 3  
  Blaming the Victim  
  Divorce SnapShots  
  Avoiding N's RAGE  
  Divorce/Custody XN/P  
  _______♥________  
  Our Children  
  For Parents  
  _______♥________  
  Recovery Tips 1  
  Recovery Tips 2  
  Closure  
  Grieving an N  
  7 Recovery Stages  
  _______♥________  
  HEALING 1  
  Page 2  
  Page 3  
  Co-Dependency  
  _______♥________  
  Love and the N  
  Adult Children of Ns  
  Abusive Parents  
  _______♥________  
  About Ns  
  _______♥________  
  ELLIE'S STORY  
  Ellie's Journal  
  _______♥________  
  Recommended BOOKS  
  _______�?_______  
  Top Picks - Bancroft  
  Brown/Leedom  
  " N. Brown  
  " S. Brown  
  " Carter/Sokol  
  " Fay  
  " Hotchkiss  
  " Leedom  
  " Payson  
  " Simon  
  " Vaknin  
  _______♥________  
  ï¿½?MEMBER PAGES  
  MEMBER RECOMMENDED WEBSITES  
  _______♥________  
  Laughs 1  
  Laughs 2  
  Laughs 3  
  One Liners  
  _______♥________  
  LEARNING PLACES  
  For the Professionals  
  _______♥________  
  Tim Field's Bullies  
  Corporate N/Ps  
  Cons and Cults  
  Ns in Government  
  ______�?________  
  Resources for Ns 1  
  Resources for Ns 2  
  Can We Help Them?  
  _______�?________  
  TESTS & QUIZZES  
  CINEMA PSYCHOS  
  Just for Fun  
  ______�?________  
  If NPs Visit Us  
  Abbreviations  
  Acknowledgements  
  ___♥___ INDEX___  
  Q & As about Ns  
  Meet the Managers  
  
  
  Tools  
 


 Can we help them?

Tribal wisdom of the Dakota Indians, passed on from generation to generation, says that,
"When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount."

"Best course of action for me was to invest in a fixer-upper house and dump that fixer-upper guy."
a member's quote

The single best way to ruin your life is to have a romantic relationship with someone with a lot of problems and believe that you could change them.
How to Ruin Your Life by Ben Stein

As we learn about mental disorders and illnesses we may be tempted to try to help, fix, cure, treat, medicate, or administer some remedy we come across. Do not do this. For your safety and sanity, let the professionals do their job.


Essential Reading for your safety..

If you are convinced, or feel reasonably certain that you are in a relationship with a destructive narcissist, you may be tempted to do all or any of the following
Tell your partner that he or she is a destructive narcissist.
Confront your partner about their behavior and attitudes.
Leave this book where you partner can see it with the hope that they will read it and see what they are doing.
Give your partner the book and tell them to read it, since it’s about them.
Do not do any of the above, or anything similar. Here is why these acts are not helpful. Persons with a destructive narcissist pattern cannot see the behaviors and attitudes they exhibit as you and others perceive them. They are unaware of the impact on you, and are well defended against knowing. Further, your attempts to make them aware or get through to them will fail, and will be perceived as threats to their core essential self. This will bring out their defenses for protection. The defenses are likely to be hostile, aggressive, strong and immediately available to them, so that they are able to attack and mount a strong counteroffensive in a nanosecond. You generally do not win or make any headway, and can find yourself in a worse position than before.
Loving the Self Absorbed, Nina W. Brown
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1572243546/104-9284888-7471903?v=glance

Can you change them? Reality check: No. Even constructive criticism is experienced by them as an affront and is met with anger and a sense of betrayal. Placating only results in more demands, not a return of thoughtfulness and consideration. In fact, if you always excuse or rationalize self-absorption and give in to constant demands, you are actually supporting and reinforcing their narcissistic needs and wants.
Are You Involved with a Narcissist by Thomas J. Schumacher, Psy.D., R-CSW
http://www.ec-online.net/Knowledge/Articles/narcissistic.html

How Can I Help the Borderline in my Life, by Randi Kreger
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/borderline_personality/31155

Stop Walking on Eggshells (Kreger/Mason)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157224108X/103-1661874-5051065?v=glance&n=283155

A person with a character disorder is unlikely to change. They’re not good candidates for therapy in that they lack insight and stop therapy once confronted. The condition is deeply rooted in the person and usually in spite of their best intentions; they tend to return in 3-6 months to their ‘baseline�? or core behavior. I always tell people in serious relationships to “date the seasons�?�?meaning a courtship over time where all sides and moods of the person can be observed. A character-disordered person cannot hide his true core behavior for more than about 6 months. You’ll see “red flags�?that will alarm you beyond normal odd behavior that we all have. Do not think that “love conquers all.�?You do not have the ability to change or rehabilitate this person, and after awhile you will be unhappy, lonely, if not broken, in this relationship. My advice to you would then be to leave the relationship �?for good and quickly.
95 personality disorder traits by J. Kent Griffeth, DSW
http://members.aol.com/dswgriff/chardisorder.html 

Ask him to define - preferably in writing - what he expects from you and where he thinks that you, or your "performance" are "deficient". Try to accommodate his reasonable demands and ignore the rest. Do not, at this stage, present a counter-list. This will come later. To move him to attend couple or marital therapy, tell him that you need his help to restore your relationship to its former warmth and intimacy. Admit to faults of your own which you want "fixed" so as to be a better mate. Appeal to his narcissism and self-image as the omnipotent and omniscient macho. Humour him for a while.
Contracting With Your Abuser �?Author Sam Vaknin
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/18046/104159

I believe in the possibility of loving narcissists if one accepts them unconditionally, in a disillusioned and expectation-free manner. Narcissists are narcissists. This is what they are. Take them or leave them. Some of them are lovable. Most of them are highly charming and intelligent. The source of the misery of the victims of the narcissist is their disappointment, their disillusionment, their abrupt and tearing and tearful realization that they fell in love with an ideal of their own invention, a phantasm, an illusion, a fata morgana. This "waking up" is traumatic. The narcissist is forever the same. It is the victim who changes.
Excerpts from the Archives of the Narcissism List - Part 1 Listowner: Dr. Sam Vaknin
http://samvak.tripod.com/archive1.html

Book Recommendation:
The Narcissistic Family - Diagnosis and Treatment
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0787908703/103-7674737-8751803?v=glance

Getting Better by Dr. Sam Vaknin 
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq12.html

Testing the Abuser by Dr. Sam Vaknin
http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily9.html


The following are some things to remember that should help you as you learn to live with mental illness in your family:

  • You cannot cure a mental disorder for a parent or sibling.
  • No one is to blame for the illness.
  • Mental disorders affect more than the person who is ill.
  • Despite your best efforts, your loved one's symptoms may get worse, or they may improve.
  • If you feel extreme resentment, you are giving too much.
  • It is as hard for the parent or sibling to accept the disorder as it is for other family members.
  • Acceptance of the disorder by all concerned may be helpful, but it is not necessary.
  • A delusion has little or nothing to do with reality, so it needs no discussion.
  • Separate the person from the disorder.
  • It is not OK for you to be neglected. You have emotional needs and wants, too.
  • The illness of a family member is nothing to be ashamed of. The reality is that you will likely encounter stigma from an apprehensive public.
  • You may have to revise your expectations of the ill person.
  • You may have to renegotiate your emotional relationship with the ill person.
  • Acknowledge the remarkable courage your sibling or parents may show when dealing with a mental disorder.
  • Generally, those closest in sibling order and gender become emotionally enmeshed while those further out become estranged.
  • Grief issues for siblings are about what you had and lost. For adult children, they are about what you never had.
  • After denial, sadness, and anger comes acceptance. The addition of understanding yields compassion. 
    (continued...)
    Coping Tips from NAMI
    http://www.nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/
    Helpline1/Coping_Tips_for_Siblings_and_Adult
    _Children_of_Persons_with_Mental_Illness.htm
    • Be straight with Yourself. To use good judgment and make wise decisions about the prospects for change in your abusive partner, you need to be honest with yourself. Because you love him or you have children with him, or leaving him would be difficult for other reasons, you may be solely temped to get overly hopeful about small concessions that he finally makes. If he doesn’t budge for five years, or twenty years, and then he finally moves an inch your exhaustion can make you think, “Hay! An inch! That’s progress! You may wish to overlook all the glaring signs indicating that his basic attitudes and strategies remain intact. Beware of his deception and your own self-deception. I have heard such heart-rending sadness in the voices of many dozens of abused women who have said to me  “I wish I could somehow recover all those years I wasted waiting around for him to deal with his issues.�?BR>Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, Lundy Bancroft

      For the rest of us, we need to heed the experiences of my online friend L. L's man came on strong. Charming. Wonderful. They married, and he immediately became selfish, cold, and ambivalent about their marriage but refused to leave; he was unempathic, wildly defensive and manipulative. He was a Narcissist. L knew something was morbidly wrong, but she stayed; he'd grow distant, she'd work to make it better. How long did this go on before she read the writing on the wall?
      Friend L stayed with her narcissist for three decades, until she 'selfishly' left him to preserve the remaining shards of sanity she had. I wonder if she has any regrets about leaving and wishes she could have him back, or if she has any general advice for the rest of us. Let's ask her, shall we?
      Alex: Hey, L. Do you have any advice for the gals out here who are on the fence about their Narcissist partners?
      L: G E T! O U T! I WENT THROUGH YEARS OF HELL. I SHOULD HAVE LEFT THIRTY YEARS AGO. I WANT MY THIRTY YEARS BACK!!!
      So, You're in Love With a Narcissist by Alexandra Nouri (with permission)

      The narcissist admits to a problem only when abandoned, destitute, and devastated. He feels that he doesn't want any more of this. He wants to change. And there often are signs that he IS changing. And then it fades. He reverts to old form. The "progress" he made evaporates virtually overnight. Many narcissists report the same process of progression followed by recidivist remission and many therapists refuse to treat narcissists because of the Sisyphean frustration involved.
      QUESTION NUMBER 2 - SELF-AWARENESS AND HEALING �?Dr. Sam Vaknin
      http://samvak.tripod.com/2.html

      Whether they're born or made; whether they're classified just right in the DSM or not; whether they're 'mentally ill' or 'emotionally ill;' whether they're severe NPD, 'narcissistic type' or "only" have 'narcissistic tendencies,' doesn't matter here. Leave all that to the university guys. Study it yourself after you're out and away and he's leaving you alone. The abuse hurts you deep and hard no matter what labels and qualifiers are slapped on the narcissist. Try all the maneuvers you want, but if he's close to you, if you're in contact with him, he'll hurt you.
      So, You're in Love With a Narcissist by Alexandra Nouri (with permission)

      On a funny note here are some (unsuccessful?) 'treatments for personality disorder' that have been mentioned at our sites: St. John's Wort, Reiki, Buddhist Meditation, Primrose Extract, Omega Rich/Deficient Diets, Hormone Patch, visiting Lourdes, Shamanism, Zoroastrianism (religion)


      Graphics by GRSites

      Notice: Microsoft has no responsibility for the content featured in this group. Click here for more info.
       MSN - Make it Your Home�